30fps doubling image in games

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

Hi, I want to ask :what component is responsible for doubling image in games ? The problem is all games(i can see this even in movies)without exception has this doubling artifact when fps are 40-30 or lower on my PC. for example when I caped my fps to 30 at 60Hz with fps limiter like in consoles my games are unplayable,I can't see a thing when rotating camera around,i see double faces,buildings etc in games. I had Xbox360 and i never saw anything like that . Is it my video card (HD 6870) could be the problem or HDTV or anything else? I did a research on internet and no real answer. I found some screenshots which shows exactly what I'm seeing . I have no problems with that when FPS are high ,like 50-60 but anything lower than 40 leads to unplayable image . Also i read that LCDs can stuck with frame for example when one frame is not cleared properly from the monitor another goes on top and the image goes double. I hope somebody could answer my question . and maybe anybody has the same problem ?

HERE IS THE EXAMPLES

phanbuey · May 8, 2012

you have 3d vision on? lol

looks like some sort of blur effect gonne terrbly wrong.

EDIT: try another display - can you hook it up to your tv/another monitor to see where the problem is?

sneekypeet · May 8, 2012

I was going to say 3D as well.

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

nope this is not 3d . this is usual 60Hz TV . the pics are not mine but you guys get the idea what i'm seeing . i tried to watch some videos on my another monitor and PC and it's the same ,no idea why games are rendered so badly at 30fps. and like i said i can see this even in movies which are at 30fps

newtekie1 · May 8, 2012

Sounds like something with the TV, I've seen this happen before with TVs. Usually there is some kind of setting on the TV that fixes it.

qubit · May 8, 2012

There's nothing wrong with your setup. You only see smooth motion when the graphics card is locked to the monitor refresh, typically called 'vsync' and there are no dropped frames.

So, if your monitor is working at 60Hz which most do, then you need the graphics card to animate the game at 60 frames per second (fps). If it does so at 30fps or any other rate, then you see effects like judder, screen tearing etc. In the movie business, this judder is called "strobing", but it's exactly the same thing and you see it on your TV all the time, because the movie frames are being shown at least twice each, depending on how they've adapted the movie to the TV refresh rate. This is 60Hz in America and some places, while others are at 50Hz, such as the UK.

Personally, I can't stand judder and I just wish that they filmed everything at the TV refresh rate to eliminate it.

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

newtekie1 said:
Sounds like something with the TV, I've seen this happen before with TVs. Usually there is some kind of setting on the TV that fixes it.

well i read some discussions about this . there were comparisons between plasmas and lcd because many people bumped in this and it's seem CRT monitors doesn't have this issue while newer plasmas and LCDs have . but another thing is why i never saw this on the same HDTV with my xbox360 , this leads me to believe that is something wrong with the PC not monitor .

qubit · May 8, 2012

laimis911 said:
well i read some discussions about this . there were comparisons between plasmas and lcd because many people bumped in this and it's seem CRT monitors doesn't have this issue while newer plasmas and LCDs have . but another thing is why i never saw this on the same HDTV with my xbox360 , this leads me to believe that is something wrong with the PC not monitor .

There's nothing wrong with the monitor. Have you read my explanation?

I know about this stuff, so trust me, that was the definitive answer to your question.

sneekypeet · May 8, 2012

laimis911 said:
nope this is not 3d . this is usual 60Hz TV .

this is irrelevant if the control panel for the card has 3D active

You can easily turn on 3D features and get something similar to the images you are getting even without the correct equipment. Not saying it is the definite answer to the issue, just that the TV/screen doesn't matter.

TheMailMan78 · May 8, 2012

What game is that? GoW?

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

qubit said:
There's nothing wrong with your setup. You only see smooth motion when the graphics card is locked to the monitor refresh, typically called 'vsync' and there are no dropped frames.

So, if your monitor is working at 60Hz which most do, then you need the graphics card to animate the game at 60 frames per second (fps). If it does so at 30fps or any other rate, then you see effects like judder, screen tearing etc. In the movie business, this judder is called "strobing", but it's exactly the same thing and you see it on your TV all the time, because the movie frames are being shown at least twice each, depending on how they've adapted the movie to the TV refresh rate. This is 60Hz in America and some places, while others are at 50Hz, such as the UK.

Personally, I can't stand judder and I just wish that they filmed everything at the TV refresh rate to eliminate it.

Are you having that double image while games are at 30fps too? because i don't understand some people say that they playing games at 30fps nice and smooth while i can't see a thing if there is 30fps . only games like witcher 2 ,crysis looks good even at 30fps because of motion blur i guess

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

TheMailMan78 said:
What game is that? GoW?

I don't know this game ,I just found random picture on internet which matches my problem .

phanbuey · May 8, 2012

um... aight... if you want any meaningful input you will need to tell us:

1. Make model of your display
2. Driver version
3. Steps that you have taken to troubleshoot.

qubit · May 8, 2012

laimis911 said:
Are you having that double image while games are at 30fps too? because i don't understand some people say that they playing games at 30fps nice and smooth while i can't see a thing if there is 30fps . only games like witcher 2 ,crysis looks good even at 30fps because of motion blur i guess

Yes, games showing 30fps on a 60Hz screen will show double images and the faster the image moves, the worse the effect is.

People say that it "looks smooth", because they don't know what they're talking about, to put it bluntly and it does nothing but confuse people that want to learn about this, such as yourself.

To generalize, it doesn't matter what rate your monitor refreshes at, if you display frames at a lower refresh, then you'll get artefacts like judder, stutter etc. And it looks crap.

For example, a game putting out 60fps on a 60Hz monitor will look beautifully smooth. Put that same 60fps with the monitor running at 120Hz and you'll see a double picture. Ironically, the motion will appear smooth to the eye though, because the judder/doubling is happening at 60Hz, not 30Hz. Yes, I've played with this and can confirm it.

Finally, the whole point of paying lots of money on a high spec PC (especially the graphics card) is to get rid of this annoying artefact.

phanbuey · May 8, 2012

qubit said:
Yes, games showing 30fps on a 60Hz screen will show double images and the faster the image moves, the worse the effect is.

People say that it "looks smooth", because they don't know what they're talking about, to put it bluntly and it does nothing but confuse people that want to learn about this, such as yourself.

To generalize, it doesn't matter what rate your monitor refreshes at, if you display frames at a lower refresh, then you'll get artefacts like judder, stutter etc. And it looks crap.

For example, a game putting out 60fps on a 60Hz monitor will look beautifully smooth. Put that same 60fps with the monitor running at 120Hz and you'll see a double picture. Ironically, the motion will appear smooth though, because the judder/doubling is happening at 60Hz, not 30Hz. Yes, I've played with this and can confirm it.

Finally, the whole point of paying lots of money on a high spec PC (especially the graphics card) is to get rid of this annoying artefact.

I put 30 FPS lock and there is no double picture. Your display shouldn't ghost at 1/2 frame. What that picture shows (which is meaningless since its not even a picutre of the real problem) should not happen in any scenario, only if you have 3d enable, which he does not. Something is clearly wrong with either the display or the VC settings.

qubit · May 8, 2012

phanbuey said:
I put 30 FPS lock and there is no double picture. Your display shouldnt ghost at 1/2 frame.

Yes, you will see judder, which is a double picture (same thing in different words) as I've painstakingly explained above. It makes no difference whatsoever what kind of technology your monitor uses, be it CRT, LCD, plasma etc.

phanbuey · May 8, 2012

qubit said:
Yes, you will see judder, which is a double picture (same thing in different words) as I've painstakingly explained above. It makes no difference whatsoever what kind of technology your monitor uses, be it CRT, LCD, plasma etc.

Judder - but not ghosting. The image will not move as smoothly but you wont have the ghosting effect you see. The picture will be outlined clearly because the monitor has AMPLE time to get rid of the last frame. What his picture shows are frames overlayed on top of one another, like something is trying to interlace the frames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3q3pY9W3M&feature=related - is this what you experience, OP?

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPBIETZLTNQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfG9qt6Peao&feature=related

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

Hm than there is no way to avoid this unless game runs at 50hz=50fps or 60hz=60fps . Interesting i guess consoles have some kind of built in technology to avoid this because it's clearly much smoother 30fps image on consoles

phanbuey · May 8, 2012

V-sync

qubit · May 8, 2012

phanbuey said:
Judder - but not ghosting. The image will not move as smoothly but you wont have the ghosting effect you see. The picture will be outlined clearly because the monitor has AMPLE time to get rid of the last frame. What his picture shows are frames overlayed on top of one another, like something is trying to interlace the frames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3q3pY9W3M&feature=related - is this what you experience, OP?

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPBIETZLTNQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

It can look like that. The exact way it looks depends on quite a few factors. I'll check out the videos later - thanks.

laimis911 said:
Hm than there is no way to avoid this unless game runs at 50hz=50fps or 60hz=60fps . Interesting i guess consoles have some kind of built in technology to avoid this because it's clearly much smoother 30fps image on consoles

Yes, they have to match. When a console looks smooth, it's because it's matching the monitor refresh rate. When it doesn't, it judders. Consoles use the exact same technology as PCs and work the same way. They're just built with playing games in mind, that's all.

laimis911 · May 8, 2012

phanbuey said:
Judder - but not ghosting. The image will not move as smoothly but you wont have the ghosting effect you see. The picture will be outlined clearly because the monitor has AMPLE time to get rid of the last frame. What his picture shows are frames overlayed on top of one another, like something is trying to interlace the frames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3q3pY9W3M&feature=related - is this what you experience, OP?

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPBIETZLTNQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfG9qt6Peao&feature=related

I have something like in gears of wars youtube video . i read about ghosting but i think i don't have that problem . it more like two same picture shown at the same time close together

phanbuey · May 8, 2012

laimis911 said:
I have something like in gears of wars youtube video . i read about ghosting but i think i don't have that problem . it more like two same picture shown at the same time close together

make sure v-sync is on... try it and let us know.

You can enable it either through the game vid options or through the control panel.

Also - that is what ghosting is - the PC draws the next frame while the current one is still up, due to crystals not being to realign fast enough:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdreviews12/three swordsman/003054_ghosting.jpg
http://personal.battleangel.org/2011/02/10/lcd-final-verdict/

cadaveca · May 8, 2012

qubit said:
They're just built with playing games in mind, that's all.

No, consoles are built to match with TVs, that have different display technology, and built-in scalers that smooth framerates and upconvert SD video while increasing displayed frames.

The basic tech is similar, but in no way is it even REMOTELY the same.

That said, I'm fairly impressed you know the cause of the problem, without knowing what monitor he's using, or what type of connection to said monitor, neither of which has been covered. :wtf:

qubit · May 8, 2012

I'll second that - vsync must be on.

qubit · May 8, 2012

cadaveca said:
No, consoles are built to match with TVs, that have different display technology, and built-in scalers that smooth framerates and upconvert SD video while increasing displayed frames.

The basic tech is similar, but in no way is it even REMOTELY the same.

That said, I'm fairly impressed you know the cause of the problem, without knowing what monitor he's using, or what type of connection to said monitor, neither of which has been covered.

It doesn't matter how the consoles work internally. The picture is made the same way as far as animation goes and that's what matters. If it wasn't, the monitor/TV couldn't display it.

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30fps doubling image in games

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