13980HX undervolt and PKG power

[vertueux]

Hi all, I got a Asus TUF with 13980HX and 4070 recently, clean installed windows 11, G-helper with Throttlestop, I'm only using G-helper to manage keyboard backlight and set battery charge limit.
During a cinebench run I've noticed that P-cores go up to 4.09Ghz only and E-cores at 3.3Ghz, with the PKG power capped at about 110W, but it could go up to 133W at boot, is this the limitation set by Asus or did I not set Throttlestop correctly? Reviews of the same laptop but with 4060 show CPU at a stable 100W during benchmarks, but that was before a BIOS update, so I'm guessing CPU is capped by Asus themselves?

I also have multiple Throttlestop icons in the windows 11 system tray settings, and only one of them would show the icon, is there a fix? Resetting the tray cache with a .bat file didn't work.

 

[Bogus5]

In my experience, it is GHelper that underestimates power limits, which reduces CPU performance.
Unfortunately, GHelper writes to the Windows registry implicitly, so you need to do a clean installation of Windows.
Then use Armory Crate.

 

[unclewebb]

PKG power capped at about 110W

When the power is being capped, ThrottleStop Limit Reasons will report PL1 or PL2 power limit throttling under the CORE column. When this happens, the multiplier (FID) value is usually not an exact and consistent number for all of the P cores. Your problem looks more like the maximum CPU speed is being capped. That requires a different fix.

Try checking the Speed Shift box in the TPL window. The Speed Shift Max value is what controls the maximum CPU speed. If Windows or G Helper are writing the wrong value to the CPU, this can limit the maximum CPU speed.

I also have multiple ThrottleStop icons in the windows 11 system tray settings

What version of Windows 11 are you using? The ThrottleStop icons used to work fine in Windows 10. Microsoft introduced a new feature / bug in Windows 11 that seems to be causing the issue you are having. I still use Windows 10 so it might be a while before I try to fix this bug. If anyone running Windows 11 wants to do some testing for me, let me know.

Do you constantly delete the ThrottleStop folder or ThrottleStop.INI configuration file or are you using a script to start or kill ThrottleStop.exe? I am still trying to figure out what is the root cause of the multiple items in the Windows icon settings window. ThrottleStop does not write anything to the registry but I might have to start doing that to keep Windows 11 happy.

 

[vertueux]

In my experience, it is GHelper that underestimates power limits, which reduces CPU performance.
Unfortunately, GHelper writes to the Windows registry implicitly, so you need to do a clean installation of Windows.
Then use Armory Crate.

Thanks for the advice! I'll resort to this if all else fails. Have you experienced any resource hog or performance issues like many have reported with AC?

When the power is being capped, ThrottleStop Limit Reasons will report PL1 or PL2 power limit throttling under the CORE column. When this happens, the multiplier (FID) value is usually not an exact and consistent number for all of the P cores. Your problem looks more like the maximum CPU speed is being capped. That requires a different fix.

Try checking the Speed Shift box in the TPL window. The Speed Shift Max value is what controls the maximum CPU speed. If Windows or G Helper are writing the wrong value to the CPU, this can limit the maximum CPU speed.


What version of Windows 11 are you using? The ThrottleStop icons used to work fine in Windows 10. Microsoft introduced a new feature / bug in Windows 11 that seems to be causing the issue you are having. I still use Windows 10 so it might be a while before I try to fix this bug. If anyone running Windows 11 wants to do some testing for me, let me know.

Do you constantly delete the ThrottleStop folder or ThrottleStop.INI configuration file or are you using a script to start or kill ThrottleStop.exe? I am still trying to figure out what is the root cause of the multiple items in the Windows icon settings window. ThrottleStop does not write anything to the registry but I might have to start doing that to keep Windows 11 happy.

I've checked it and ran cinebench again, results are the same.
I'm using windows 11 home 23h2 os build 22631.3296, and nope I downloaded throttlestop, extracted it, put it in C:\Program Files (x86) then did all my tweaking. I'm only using the task scheduler method to start throttlestop on startup, though this method requires an additional step in windows 11 which is to change user/group to administrators or else it will ask for a password (which I did not set for my local account).

 

[unclewebb]

results are the same

That sucks. I was hoping it was something simple like the Speed Shift Max setting. I am not sure what the problem is.

Try exiting G-Helper and then check the High Performance box on the main ThrottleStop window to access the Windows High performance power plan. Maybe that will help get the multiplier up to where it should be. Open Power Options when using the High Performance power plan and try pressing the Restore plan defaults button.

Thanks for the helpful hints about the icon issue. I am guessing that when the Task Scheduler starts ThrottleStop, it might not have access to the ThrottleStop.INI configuration file. This is probably what causes ThrottleStop or Windows to create a new icon ID value over and over again, each time you boot up. Here is the Task Scheduler Guide that used to work correctly in Windows 10. Compare your task to this one to see if there are any differences.

Effective clock speed

Hi, I have a problem with my CPU (8700K), which is that my effective core clock speeds decrease after a while. I have an all core OC set to 4.7GHz and initially when starting the PC, the effective core clocks are 4.7GHz as well when CPU is under load. These are later (like 10 mins later after...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Bogus5]

Thanks for the advice! I'll resort to this if all else fails. Have you experienced any resource hog or performance issues like many have reported with AC?

The author of GHelper is very stubborn and finds it hard to understand that using a program configuration file along the lines of ThrottleStop would greatly increase the credibility of GH, and instead prefers to mess with the Windows registry.
On the same CPU after applying GH to my computer performance dropped by about 15%, fortunately I restored the system from a copy without installation and everything returned to normal.
I am using an older version of Armory Crate and no anomalies are occurring with me.

 

[unclewebb]

and instead prefers to mess with the Windows registry.

I prefer that ThrottleStop or any similar utility type program does not write anything to the Windows registry. Stand alone programs should be just that. If a user does not like a program, they should be able to delete whatever folder it is in without any unintended issues. I am not sure what setting G Helper is changing. I know there is a hidden setting in the Windows power plans that can be set to limit the maximum CPU speed. If that is the problem, maybe pressing the Power Options - Restore plan defaults button will fix that.

The author of GHelper is very stubborn

Me too.

 

[Bogus5]

Me too.

That's what I know.

And with GHelper I tried various pranks, but without success.

 

[vertueux]

That sucks. I was hoping it was something simple like the Speed Shift Max setting. I am not sure what the problem is.

Try exiting G-Helper and then check the High Performance box on the main ThrottleStop window to access the Windows High performance power plan. Maybe that will help get the multiplier up to where it should be. Open Power Options when using the High Performance power plan and try pressing the Restore plan defaults button.

View attachment 340726

Thanks for the helpful hints about the icon issue. I am guessing that when the Task Scheduler starts ThrottleStop, it might not have access to the ThrottleStop.INI configuration file. This is probably what causes ThrottleStop or Windows to create a new icon ID value over and over again, each time you boot up. Here is the Task Scheduler Guide that used to work correctly in Windows 10. Compare your task to this one to see if there are any differences.

Effective clock speed

Hi, I have a problem with my CPU (8700K), which is that my effective core clock speeds decrease after a while. I have an all core OC set to 4.7GHz and initially when starting the PC, the effective core clocks are 4.7GHz as well when CPU is under load. These are later (like 10 mins later after...

www.techpowerup.com

Followed your instructions step by step and the issue still persists unfortunately...

Yup this guide was the exact steps I took to create the task, and like I mentioned earlier now in windows 11 I had to change the user or group option under the general tab to administratos or it will ask me to input a password which I did not set upon clicking ok, and just leaving it blank and clicking ok would result in an incorrect password. It doesn't increase my icon count though there are exactly 5 throttlestop icons in the system tray options.

The author of GHelper is very stubborn and finds it hard to understand that using a program configuration file along the lines of ThrottleStop would greatly increase the credibility of GH, and instead prefers to mess with the Windows registry.
On the same CPU after applying GH to my computer performance dropped by about 15%, fortunately I restored the system from a copy without installation and everything returned to normal.
I am using an older version of Armory Crate and no anomalies are occurring with me.

Darn I guess my windows registry has already been messed with then....

 

[Bogus5]

Darn I guess my windows registry has already been messed with then....

With Armory Crate my CPU on Cinebench 2024 squeezes out almost 2000 pts.
It's worth crossing over with AC.

 

[Serge]

The author of GHelper is very stubborn and finds it hard to understand that using a program configuration file along the lines of ThrottleStop would greatly increase the credibility of GH, and instead prefers to mess with the Windows registry.
On the same CPU after applying GH to my computer performance dropped by about 15%, fortunately I restored the system from a copy without installation and everything returned to normal.
I am using an older version of Armory Crate and no anomalies are occurring with me.

Hello, I'm the author of G-Helper, and since you directly insulting me here I feel need to answer.

Application DOES NOT write any power limits in the registry. The statement is simply false.

It's an open source and completely transparent program https://github.com/seerge/g-helper, so you can completely monitor what it does and what it does not.

It allows you to select one of 3 predefined (by manufacturer) performance modes (Silent / Balanced / Turbo) and optionally customize them with power limits. All settings are set via Asus System Control Interface driver in same way as Armoury Crate sets them. And more over all Asus devices designed in a way, that mode and all settings reset on reboot.

Darn I guess my windows registry has already been messed with then....

It is not, app doesn't write anything to your registry

Looking at your screenshots I see that you stick to default Turbo Mode settings (which is fine). If you want to do same as Manual Mode in AC does you need to check "Apply" under power limits and fan curves. What was maximum power limit you could set in AC for PL1 / PL2 ? But keep in mind that there is also hard caps for power on BIOS level, those you can't overcome.

On a side note, by default G-Helper would use "Balanced" power plan in windows (don't mix up with power modes). It's enough for most situations, but sometimes if you want to squeeze absolute maximum from CPU you may assign High Performance power plan to Turbo mode for example as well. You can read how to do that here https://github.com/seerge/g-helper/...ngs#custom-windows-power-plans-with-each-mode

If you feel something is not working as it should, please feel free to report a new issue

Good luck

I prefer that ThrottleStop or any similar utility type program does not write anything to the Windows registry. Stand alone programs should be just that. If a user does not like a program, they should be able to delete whatever folder it is in without any unintended issues. I am not sure what setting G Helper is changing.

This is exactly what G-Helper is. It's a portable application that can be just deleted as is. Option to change performance modes or set power limits are implemented via Asus System Control Interface driver. It uses proprietary endpoints, that manufacturer exposed for it's own software (AC) to change some settings. How its done can be seen in the code

Exactly same endpoints are also used, for example, by Linux Kernel

The only setting G-Helper can change in Power Plan settings - is CPU boost, and only if user selects it via interface. Topic starter has it set to Aggressive, which is fine.

 

[Bogus5]

Once again, it's confirmed that either you don't fully know how your own program works, or you're not being completely honest with us, because it only takes one use of GHelper to permanently lower the CPU's power limits.
I experienced such a situation personally and reported to you directly that GHelper's settings are significantly different from Armory Crate's settings, and you demanded proof that the CPU is capable of running at more than. 150 W.
The evidence was provided, but it still did not change anything in your approach to this issue.

In addition, it is still not clear how GHelper remembers program settings and settings made by the user, as this issue is absolutely not as clear as when using ThrottleStop.
Now is a good time for you to explain to me and everyone else how it actually works, instead of getting offended.

 

[Serge]

Once again, it's confirmed that either you don't fully know how your own program works, or you're not being completely honest with us, because it only takes one use of GHelper to permanently lower the CPU's power limits.
I experienced such a situation personally and reported to you directly that GHelper's settings are significantly different from Armory Crate's settings, and you demanded proof that the CPU is capable of running at more than. 150 W.

I want to underline again, application does not write anything to the registry as you mentioned multiple times in this thread. Please point out where exactly it does that. Sources are open. Or don't spread incorrect information.

G-Helper does not "permanently lower" any CPU limits due to reasons explained in my previous comment.

As for your specific situation, I'm not aware about what specific settings you were setting or using, and what exactly you were comparing. If you feel something is not working as it should you cold provide screenshots of your settings and a log, as it's always asked in issue template on github. I don't remember receiving settings and logs from you.

Thanks.

In addition, it is still not clear how GHelper remembers program settings and settings made by the user, as this issue is absolutely not as clear as when using ThrottleStop.

P.S. G-Helper stores it's settings a simple config file. It's covered in FAQ and is absolutely clear.

The evidence was provided, but it still did not change anything in your approach to this issue.

P.P.S. For Strix models power limit sliders can go as high as 175W

 

[Bogus5]

The descriptions for GHelper to which you link do not address the fundamental issue, namely GHelper's lowering of CPU power limits, and that is the issue at hand.
In addition to everything ASUS technical department, advises against using GHelper and suggests that it can be dangerous to the hardware in perspective.
So much for that from me.
Thank you.

P.S.
It's not about sliders, it's about power limits after switching in GHelper to the Turbo power plan.
It's clear that GHelper doesn't get its information about power limits from the computer's BIOS, it just doesn't know from where.

 

[Solaris17]

I encourage both of you to take this to PM. The git repo is there and the author has given anyone inclined the ability to reach out with bugs.

The conversation does not fit inside the topic and has turned into banter.

If the OP thinks TS can help him with his performance, than that should be discussed.

Thanks.

 

[vertueux]

Hello, I'm the author of G-Helper, and since you directly insulting me here I feel need to answer.

Application DOES NOT write any power limits in the registry. The statement is simply false.

It's an open source and completely transparent program https://github.com/seerge/g-helper, so you can completely monitor what it does and what it does not.

It allows you to select one of 3 predefined (by manufacturer) performance modes (Silent / Balanced / Turbo) and optionally customize them with power limits. All settings are set via Asus System Control Interface driver in same way as Armoury Crate sets them. And more over all Asus devices designed in a way, that mode and all settings reset on reboot.



It is not, app doesn't write anything to your registry

Looking at your screenshots I see that you stick to default Turbo Mode settings (which is fine). If you want to do same as Manual Mode in AC does you need to check "Apply" under power limits and fan curves. What was maximum power limit you could set in AC for PL1 / PL2 ? But keep in mind that there is also hard caps for power on BIOS level, those you can't overcome.

On a side note, by default G-Helper would use "Balanced" power plan in windows (don't mix up with power modes). It's enough for most situations, but sometimes if you want to squeeze absolute maximum from CPU you may assign High Performance power plan to Turbo mode for example as well. You can read how to do that here https://github.com/seerge/g-helper/...ngs#custom-windows-power-plans-with-each-mode

If you feel something is not working as it should, please feel free to report a new issue

Good luck



This is exactly what G-Helper is. It's a portable application that can be just deleted as is. Option to change performance modes or set power limits are implemented via Asus System Control Interface driver. It uses proprietary endpoints, that manufacturer exposed for it's own software (AC) to change some settings. How its done can be seen in the code

Exactly same endpoints are also used, for example, by Linux Kernel

The only setting G-Helper can change in Power Plan settings - is CPU boost, and only if user selects it via interface. Topic starter has it set to Aggressive, which is fine.

Hi! Thanks for taking the time to clarify, glad to understand the works of ghelper from the man himself! Now that both authors are here I feel like this is a good time to ask some questions...

Okay for the first point I didnt check the apply power limits in ghelper in case it clashes with Throttlestop power limits, i actually did try sliding both to 150W and checking it at some point but it is not reflected in throttlestop?

The max PL1/PL2 i can set in AC is 100/135 from what i understand that is the hard cap?

And just an update to the whole situation...I actually reinstalled windows and am using AC with throttlestop now, and running cinebench actually shows that the CPU shoots up 135W for a few secs and then it is PL1 limited and stays at 100W constant, compared to my first post with ghelper cinebech runs at 110W constant until benchmark ends, I am so confused...so turbo power plan is better than maxed out manual plan in AC? Or is that the works of aggressive CPU boost here?

 

[Serge]

Hi! Thanks for taking the time to clarify, glad to understand the works of ghelper from the man himself! Now that both authors are here I feel like this is a good time to ask some questions...

Okay for the first point I didnt check the apply power limits in ghelper in case it clashes with Throttlestop power limits, i actually did try sliding both to 150W and checking it at some point but it is not reflected in throttlestop?

Hello. Asus has own way to limit power on their devices. They limit it by BIOS itself, so readings are not reflected by HWinfo for example (not sure about Throttlestop, but most probably same). So the easiest way to verify what is actual limit in this case - is to run benchmark, and monitor on a chart (with hwinfo) or at least on a number (with throttlestop) what is actual limit.

The max PL1/PL2 i can set in AC is 100/135 from what i understand that is the hard cap?

It could be a bit higher than that, but usually it's close.

You absolutely don't have to reinstall whole system

Default modes are hardcoded in BIOS (and are actually "presets" of power limtis + fan curves + some other things). So both apps (AC / GH) just select a mode with a single command. That's all they do + you can optionally try to customize them, in AC it's called Manual in GH you just go to Fans + Power.

Did you see actual real-life difference in performance or in benchmark scores?

If so - you could try to assign "High performance" power plan in windows along Turbo mode by adding

"scheme_1": "8c5e7fda-e8bf-4a96-9a85-a6e23a8c635c",

to app config as explained here .

I am so confused...so turbo power plan is better than maxed out manual plan in AC? Or is that the works of aggressive CPU boost here?

P.S. I just realized that you actually compare "Manual (maxed out)" mode in AC with default Turbo that you were setting before in G-Helper

Try just to compare Turbo vs Turbo. And unless there is some tricky settings in windows power plan itself on your device, they should behave very similar.

 

[vertueux]

Hello. Asus has own way to limit power on their devices. They limit it by BIOS itself, so readings are not reflected by HWinfo for example (not sure about Throttlestop, but most probably same). So the easiest way to verify what is actual limit in this case - is to run benchmark, and monitor on a chart (with hwinfo) or at least on a number (with throttlestop) what is actual limit.


It could be a bit higher than that, but usually it's close.

You absolutely don't have to reinstall whole system

Default modes are hardcoded in BIOS (and are actually "presets" of power limtis + fan curves + some other things). So both apps (AC / GH) just select a mode with a single command. That's all they do + you can optionally try to customize them, in AC it's called Manual in GH you just go to Fans + Power.

Did you see actual real-life difference in performance or in benchmark scores?

If so - you could try to assign "High performance" power plan in windows along Turbo mode by adding

"scheme_1": "8c5e7fda-e8bf-4a96-9a85-a6e23a8c635c",

to app config as explained here .

Okay understood, I'll probably not fixate on the PL too much and focus on stable undervolting with throttlestop, understandably TUF is lower tier than ROG so Asus has to differentiate the lineup...

Does assigning high performance plan work for manual mode as well or does maxing everything in manual mode equate to maximising perofrmance already?

Benchmark scores does not differ by much, I'd say it's within margin of error. I'm going back to ghelper now, am a sucker for the minimalist UI and reducing bloat on the system

Once again thanks for taking the time and all the works @unclewebb @Serge

 

[Serge]

Does assigning high performance plan work for manual mode as well or does maxing everything in manual mode equate to maximising perofrmance already?

AC would assign own power plans for each mode. So Turbo and Manual (which is actually also Turbo under the hood ) already have that.

G-Helper is designed with a clean system in mind and it simply can't rely on other power plans. So it just uses what windows has by default (i.e. "Balanced" power plan) and changes windows Power Mode (as in win11 they affect a lot).

And by my observations and feedback from lots of users there is almost no difference in real-life performance between old-fashioned power plans. But if there is a need in them - there is always an option, as I explained.

Benchmark scores does not differ by much, I'd say it's within margin of error. I'm going back to ghelper now, am a sucker for the minimalist UI and reducing bloat on the system

Good to know so then everything seem to work correctly for you.

P.S. How specifically Turbo is tuned by manufacturer, it depends on specific model. But sometimes they are making Turbo even more powerful than what you can max out in Manual. Which could to be your case (110W sustained on turbo vs 100W on manual). Obviously in G-Helper you can overcome that and set higher limit there if you want.

 

[gQx]

Okay understood, I'll probably not fixate on the PL too much and focus on stable undervolting with throttlestop, understandably TUF is lower tier than ROG so Asus has to differentiate the lineup...

Does assigning high performance plan work for manual mode as well or does maxing everything in manual mode equate to maximising perofrmance already?

Benchmark scores does not differ by much, I'd say it's within margin of error. I'm going back to ghelper now, am a sucker for the minimalist UI and reducing bloat on the system

Once again thanks for taking the time and all the works @unclewebb @Serge

hi, I don't want to betray unclewebb here but can you try using QuickCPU and select "prefer performant processors" for both short and normal threads(on the main screen at the bottom "p&e Core Policy") and with standard core parking 0 option. you may get more performance out of your cpu

 

[unclewebb]

QuickCPU

No problem. Use whatever works.

ThrottleStop has not been updated for the newer CPUs or updated for Windows 11. If another program can solve a throttling problem then you need to use that.

 

[gQx]

No problem. Use whatever works.

ThrottleStop has not been updated for the newer CPUs or updated for Windows 11. If another program can solve a throttling problem then you need to use that.

yeah intel and manufacturers keep finding a loophole and get away each time hard to keep up got 13700h laptop last week pl2 limited by manufacturer to 90w(115w usual) throttlestop or other programs didn't break but with that options I started to hit 5ghz in games it was only reaching 4.1 before power throttling go figure

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Win-11 just has to much VM security bs that needs to be disabled bottom line.
Otherwise it's no different than 10 except for some UI changes and moved some settings.

 

[vertueux]

yeah intel and manufacturers keep finding a loophole and get away each time hard to keep up got 13700h laptop last week pl2 limited by manufacturer to 90w(115w usual) throttlestop or other programs didn't break but with that options I started to hit 5ghz in games it was only reaching 4.1 before power throttling go figure

Sounds nice, will definitely check it out!

Hi,
Win-11 just has to much VM security bs that needs to be disabled bottom line.
Otherwise it's no different than 10 except for some UI changes and moved some settings.

IKR, such a pain to sift through all the settings and turning them off...

@unclewebb I have a new issue, throttlestop temperature readings seem a little weird, while my cores are at 37~45 degrees underneath that table and in the system tray icon pop up they both report 52? :S interestingly though ghelper reports the same 52 degrees, did I mess with some sensors or are some programs clashing?

 

[unclewebb]

throttlestop temperature readings seem a little weird

The main screen of ThrottleStop and the system tray shows the CPU package temperature. Intel uses temperature sensors on the individual cores but there are also other sensors located throughout the CPU package. The CPU compares all of these sensors and then reports the highest temperature found anywhere within the CPU package.

When lightly loaded, the highest temperature may not be coming from any of the individual P or E cores. You also have to keep in mind that none of these sensors are 100% accurate. They are not calibrated to report 100% accurate idle temperatures. Intel only calibrates these sensors so they can trigger thermal throttling at 100°C. When your CPU is significantly loaded, you will probably see that the temperature of the hottest P core and the package temperature are the same.

You can try using HWiNFO. It should report the exact same package temperature that ThrottleStop and G Helper are reporting. Let's just say that Intel is not using space shuttle quality parts for their temperature sensors. As long as these sensors can trigger throttling at 100°C, it is all good.