Friday, June 26th 2015

AMD Didn't Get the R9 Fury X Wrong, but NVIDIA Got its GTX 980 Ti Right

This has been a roller-coaster month for high-end PC graphics. The timing of NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 980 Ti launch had us giving finishing touches to its review with our bags to Taipei still not packed. When it launched, the GTX 980 Ti set AMD a performance target and a price target. Then began a 3-week wait for AMD to launch its Radeon R9 Fury X graphics card. The dance is done, the dust has settled, and we know who has won - nobody. AMD didn't get the R9 Fury X wrong, but NVIDIA got its GTX 980 Ti right. At best, this stalemate yielded a 4K-capable single-GPU graphics option from each brand at $650. You already had those in the form of the $650-ish Radeon R9 295X2, or a pair GTX 970 cards. Those with no plans of a 4K display already had great options in the form of the GTX 970, and price-cut R9 290X.

The Radeon R9 290 series launch from Fall-2013 stirred up the high-end graphics market in a big way. The $399 R9 290 made NVIDIA look comically evil for asking $999 for the card it beat, the GTX TITAN; while the R9 290X remained the fastest single-GPU option, at $550, till NVIDIA launched the $699 GTX 780 Ti, to get people back to paying through their noses for the extra performance. Then there were two UFO sightings in the form of the GTX TITAN Black, and the GTX TITAN-Z, which made no tangible contributions to consumer choice. Sure, they gave you full double-precision floating point (DPFP) performance, but DPFP is of no use to gamers. So what could have been the calculation at AMD and NVIDIA as June 2015 approached? Here's a theory.
Image credit: Mahspoonis2big, Reddit

AMD's HBM Gamble
The "Fiji" silicon is formidable. It made performance/Watt gains over "Hawaii," despite a lack of significant shader architecture performance improvements between GCN 1.1 and GCN 1.2 (at least nowhere of the kind between NVIDIA's "Kepler" and "Maxwell.") AMD could do a 45% increase in stream processors for the Radeon R9 Fury X, at the same typical board power as its predecessor, the R9 290X. The company had to find other ways to bring down power consumption, and one way to do that, while not sacrificing performance, was implementing a more efficient memory standard, High Bandwidth Memory (HBM).

Implementing HBM, right now, is not as easy GDDR5 was, when it was new. HBM is more efficient than GDDR5, but it trades clock speed for bus-width, and a wider bus entails more pins (connections), which would have meant an insane amount of PCB wiring around the GPU, in AMD's case. The company had to co-develop the industry's first mass-producible interposer (silicon die that acts as substrate for other dies), relocate the memory to the GPU package, and still make do with the design limitation of first-generation HBM capping out at 8 Gb per stack, or 4 GB for AMD's silicon; after having laid a 4096-bit wide memory bus. This was a bold move.

Reviews show that 4 GB of HBM isn't Fiji's Achilles' heel. The card still competes in the same league as the 6 GB memory-laden GTX 980 Ti, at 4K Ultra HD (a resolution that's most taxing on the video memory). The card is just 2% slower than the GTX 980 Ti, at this resolution. Its performance/Watt is significantly higher than the R9 290X. We reckon that this outcome would have been impossible with GDDR5, if AMD never gambled with HBM, and stuck to the 512-bit wide GDDR5 interface of "Hawaii," just as it stuck to a front-end and render back-end configuration similar to it (the front-end is similar to that of "Tonga," while the ROP count is the same as "Hawaii.")

NVIDIA Accelerated GM200
NVIDIA's big "Maxwell" silicon, the GM200, wasn't expected to come out as soon as it did. The GTX 980 and the 5 billion-transistor GM204 silicon are just 9 months old in the market, NVIDIA has sold a lot of these; and given how the company milked its predecessor, the GK104, for a year in the high-end segment before bringing out the GK110 with the TITAN; something similar was expected of the GM200. Its March 2015 introduction - just six months following the GTX 980 - was unexpected. What was also unexpected, was NVIDIA launching the GTX 980 Ti, as early as it did. This card has effectively cannibalized the TITAN X, just 3 months post its launch. The GTX TITAN X is a halo product, overpriced at $999, and hence not a lot of GM200 chips were expected to be in production. We heard reports throughout Spring, that launch of a high-volume, money-making SKU based on the GM200 could be expected only after Summer. As it turns out, NVIDIA was preparing a welcoming party for the R9 Fury X, with the GTX 980 Ti.

The GTX 980 Ti was more likely designed with R9 Fury X performance, rather than a target price, as the pivot. The $650 price tag is likely something NVIDIA came up with later, after having achieved a performance lead over the R9 Fury X, by stripping down the GM200 as much as it could to get there. How NVIDIA figured out R9 Fury X performance is anybody's guess. It's more likely that the price of R9 Fury X would have been different, if the GTX 980 Ti wasn't around; than the other way around.

Who Won?
Short answer - nobody. The high-end graphics card market isn't as shaken up as it was, right after the R9 290 series launch. The "Hawaii" twins held onto their own, and continued to offer great bang for the buck, until NVIDIA stepped in with the GTX 970 and GTX 980 last September. $300 gets you not much more from what it did a month ago. At least now you have a choice between the GTX 970 and the R9 390 (which appears to have caught up), at $430, the R9 390X offers competition to the $499 GTX 980; and then there are leftovers from the previous-gen, such as the R9 290 series and the GTX 780 Ti, but these aren't really the high-end we were looking for. It was gleeful to watch the $399 R9 290 dethrone the $999 GTX TITAN in September 2013, as people upgraded their rigs for Holiday 2013. We didn't see that kind of a spectacle this month. There is a silver lining, though. There is a rather big gap between the GTX 980 and GTX 980 Ti just waiting to be filled.

Hopefully July will churn out something exciting (and bonafide high-end) around the $500 mark.
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223 Comments on AMD Didn't Get the R9 Fury X Wrong, but NVIDIA Got its GTX 980 Ti Right

#126
RejZoR
The thing is, once you're so deep into the existing stuff, it's VERY hard to think outside the box. When you're so into specific things, you tend to just evolve them, base everything you already know about it and make it better. But if you're thwon into it with just the very basics, you tend to think of things that wouldn't cross your mind otherwise.
Posted on Reply
#127
hertz9753
No...

I do own hardware but it is not listed in my sig.
Posted on Reply
#128
HumanSmoke
RejZoRThen again, how hard is it to call 2 engineers for a cup of tea and a chat regarding the product you're about to market to the masses? All you have to do is to ask them for an explanation like you're a 12 years old kid.
IDK about comparing PR flacks to a 12 year-old. Seems like you're overestimating their technical ability.
Most people I've met who admit to being in the PR/marketing business don't seem overly interested in anything except their own great ideas - any conversation that veers towards the technical, and their eyes glaze over. It's like trying to explain football tactics to your non-sports minded girlfriend.

I'm not even sure that those (I'm taking PR people not GF's, though YMMV) who shut up long enough to allow information to be imparted, actually take in anything that can't be expressed in buzzwords and slogans.
Posted on Reply
#129
RejZoR
It wouldn't hurt if companies would include anything factual within their typical PR bullshit...
Posted on Reply
#130
Folterknecht
What JaysTwoCents had to say about AMDs PR team(s) in one of his latest "techtalks" fits right in here - basicly every time he deals with AMD he s talking to a different person/team, that doesnt seem to know what their colleagues are up to.
Posted on Reply
#131
FreedomEclipse
~Technological Technocrat~
FolterknechtWhat JaysTwoCents had to say about AMDs PR team(s) in one of his latest "techtalks" fits right in here - basicly every time he deals with AMD he s talking to a different person/team, that doesnt seem to know what their colleagues are up to.
Sounds a bit like a clusterfuck. Either people keep leaving, keep getting rid of people or finding some next poor soul to throw under the bus to take all the hate from the community when the numbers he or she spouts dont add up and completely not give a fuck because their going to be leaving the company anyway soon after.

Kinda like what Microsoft does when they get one of their people out to bang the drum for their 'love of PC gaming' and how they have 'lost their way' and 'faltered in the past' but are will to try to make things right again. About 6 months down the road - that particular guy who was the face of microsoft's PC gaming PR campaign has left the company and absolutely fuck all progress has been made on the promises that were made in the interview. In fact M$ would probably disavow any knowledge of that guy being employed by them and the message that he was sent to deliver to the PC gaming community.

-----

IMO Unless AMD get their shit together there is no point calling them up for interviews and shit about their new products. Its just wasting everyones time.
Posted on Reply
#132
RejZoR
What I was also very disapointed over AMD is they didn't talk about technology behind Fiji at all. They just said, we have these and these cards and here we have this awesome kick ass tiny card here, then tehy brought up Quantum and also didn't talk much about it and goodbye, it was over. I know not everyone is interested in the techno talk, but I am. And I was sitting there watching the release conference that essentially left me unsatisfied with a hardon still in effect...

When NVIDIA launched GTX 980 and GTX 970, they talked about the tech behind it, the new features, their future plans. None of it on AMD 300 series release. And I think I'm not the only one sharing such opinion...
Posted on Reply
#133
RejZoR
I've just noticed something absolutely ridiculous. GTX 980Ti and Fury X both selling for around 800€. I could grab an R9-295X2 for 750€. Guess where R9-295X2 lands in pretty much all benchmarks? Above EVERYTHING, it even beats Titan X by like 20% lol. Only thing that I don't like about it is that It's a dual GPU solution, meaning you're entirely dependant on the CrossfireX profiles to do their magic.
Posted on Reply
#134
chinmi
IMHO, people that buy the fury x need to have their brain checked out. It's same priced as the 980ti, it's hotter, slower, weaker, less powerful, consume more electricity, lack of driver support/update, takes more space on your system cause of the watercooler unit, and louder.
Why on earth people want to buy a fury x ? Other then they're dumb or a blind amd fanboy.

It's just an opinion, lets keep it civil :)
Posted on Reply
#135
arbiter
RejZoRI've just noticed something absolutely ridiculous. GTX 980Ti and Fury X both selling for around 800€. I could grab an R9-295X2 for 750€. Guess where R9-295X2 lands in pretty much all benchmarks? Above EVERYTHING, it even beats Titan X by like 20% lol. Only thing that I don't like about it is that It's a dual GPU solution, meaning you're entirely dependant on the CrossfireX profiles to do their magic.
yea 295x2 does look like a great buy but lookin at recent issues of amd drivers lacking coming out with new CF profiles for games kinda puts a stinker on it. if it was dual nvidia based gpu would be ok but AMD wonder if new AAA title that comes out if you can use the card complete or do you gotta wait a weeks or months for it. Would be an idea to add in to drivers a CF or SLI profile down loader so when new game comes out they can just release the profile don't need to update drivers less there is a technical issue. So got the profile easy.
chinmiIMHO, people that buy the fury x need to have their brain checked out. It's same priced as the 980ti, it's hotter, slower, weaker, less powerful, consume more electricity, lack of driver support/update, takes more space on your system cause of the watercooler unit, and louder.
Why on earth people want to buy a fury x ? Other then they're dumb or a blind amd fanboy.

It's just an opinion, lets keep it civil :)
Hotter is TBD at this point til air cooled version though looks like that might be a little cut down comes out to see how well air coolers work on it.
Posted on Reply
#136
RejZoR
chinmiIMHO, people that buy the fury x need to have their brain checked out. It's same priced as the 980ti, it's hotter, slower, weaker, less powerful, consume more electricity, lack of driver support/update, takes more space on your system cause of the watercooler unit, and louder.
Why on earth people want to buy a fury x ? Other then they're dumb or a blind amd fanboy.

It's just an opinion, lets keep it civil :)
C'mon, give it some slack. NVIDIA also didn't have brilliant drivers at launch and from what I'm hearing it stil doesn't have. Fury was launched a week ago and it's a brand new GPU for which AMD never had any drivers and can indeed be broken. Especially in combination with HBM which works nothing like GDDR5...
Posted on Reply
#137
ZoneDymo
chinmiIMHO, people that buy the fury x need to have their brain checked out. It's same priced as the 980ti, it's hotter, slower, weaker, less powerful, consume more electricity, lack of driver support/update, takes more space on your system cause of the watercooler unit, and louder.
Why on earth people want to buy a fury x ? Other then they're dumb or a blind amd fanboy.

It's just an opinion, lets keep it civil :)
What is the difference between "slower" and "Weaker" and "less powerful" when talking about a gpu?
Also its kinda odd to ask for people to call it civil because you basically said everyone who does not agree with you is either dumb or a blind amd fanboy.
Posted on Reply
#138
HumanSmoke
RejZoRWhat I was also very disapointed over AMD is they didn't talk about technology behind Fiji at all.
You'll likely have to wait until the Hot Chips Symposiumin August (Day 2). AMD's lack of forthcoming over the architecture and chip layout make Fiji a "black box" at the moment as far as how much performance is architecture based, and how much is a lack of driver optimization. I suspect it is the former, but without a definitive architectural analysis it remains guesswork for everyone.
FreedomEclipseIMO Unless AMD get their shit together there is no point calling them up for interviews and shit about their new products. Its just wasting everyones time.
Unfortunately for AMD it isn't just the tech community sharing this sentiment, it also the financial/investment world. The quote at the end of this Seeking Alphapiece sums up the same attitude: Whatever faith I had in the veracity of AMD's new management has been greatly diminished. As Nietzsche once said "I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you."
Posted on Reply
#139
the54thvoid
Super Intoxicated Moderator
ZoneDymo....
Also its kinda odd to ask for people to call it civil because you basically said everyone who does not agree with you is either dumb or a blind amd fanboy.
I don't often agree with you but you are 100% correct with that analysis.

EDIT: If AMD could have shown how great an overclocker it is - I'd be buying one. That for me was the only real weakness of it. It trades blows with 980ti at my current gaming resolution but the overclock killed it for me.
Posted on Reply
#140
xorbe
AMD Didn't Get the R9 Fury X Wrong
So, AMD trusts its Radeon cards after all?
Posted on Reply
#141
arbiter
FreedomEclipseIMO Unless AMD get their shit together there is no point calling them up for interviews and shit about their new products. Its just wasting everyones time.
Talking to AMD PR marketing is a waste of time, in past they have proven to not know much of anything about the tech they are sent to talk about. Most of it is a PR sheet they read and all claims are wrote up but who knows. They have made claims that end up being not completely true. Only reason I listen to a AMD PR rep is cause i want a good laugh at how much of an idiot they are. If they want people to take them seriously, sent one the Tech guys like Nvidia usually does.
Posted on Reply
#142
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
RejZoRNVIDIA also didn't have brilliant drivers at launch and from what I'm hearing it stil doesn't have.
What exactly are you talking about here? Are you talking about the drivers for the 980Ti launch? Are you talking about the minor bug that cause Chrome to crash the driver once in a while? At least that doesn't break the performance of the cards at any resolution other than 4k. And nVidia fixed the problem already, they managed to do it in under a month too. How long does it usually take AMD to fix bugs? Usually a heck of a lot longer than a month.
Posted on Reply
#143
Basard
bentan77There's still the Fury card to be released and this could offer pretty similar performance to the Fury X at a cheaper price.
I'm hoping so. maybe it will be like the Titan X vs 980ti.... Hopefully some non-reference boards and coolers will allow the new Furies to be clocked higher and perform a little better.

Having an AIO water cooler setup is a real burden. The least they could have done was make it single slot, put some holes on top, put the pump outside, and let you just hook up your own setup if you have one already. The least...
Posted on Reply
#144
john_
newtekie1What exactly are you talking about here? Are you talking about the drivers for the 980Ti launch? Are you talking about the minor bug that cause Chrome to crash the driver once in a while? At least that doesn't break the performance of the cards at any resolution other than 4k. And nVidia fixed the problem already, they managed to do it in under a month too. How long does it usually take AMD to fix bugs? Usually a heck of a lot longer than a month.
Minor bug having crushes with the most used browser in the market? LOL nice one. I am seeing nvidia fans in a Greek forum testing drivers and settings on Chrome for a month now. And it's not only on 4K. Half a dozen drivers where having that problem. Of course Nvidia gave priority to gaming optimizations but it was no minor.
Posted on Reply
#146
FreedomEclipse
~Technological Technocrat~
BasardHaving an AIO water cooler setup is a real burden. The least they could have done was make it single slot, put some holes on top, put the pump outside, and let you just hook up your own setup if you have one already. The least...
In other words, Give you a card with a full waterblock pre-installed like the EVGA's 'Hydro Copper' series of cards.

They could have but then again it will cost more and AMDs only real advantage at the moment is its price compared to the 980Ti.

Cards with full waterblocks pre-installed will be available shortly with the Fury X. I heard AMD didnt allow the other vendors to make their own custom cooling solutions so thats why a lot of the cards are physically exactly the same.
Posted on Reply
#147
RealNeil
kiddagoatJust picked up my Fury X yesterday. Had the 980Ti for about 2 weeks previously before that. Not much difference between the two. I just liked the looks and am really liking the audible noise of the Fury X. I could hear the 980Ti's fan spin up here and there under certain situations but it wasn't anything totally off putting.

Both cards good. They both play all my games just fine. I need to upgrade the monitor soon to justify the new GPU. I have had the itch for a long 8 months. Baby steps.... baby steps.

I have a mid tower, Arc Midi, with a high-end Zalman flower style cooler. To say installation was a breeze would be a bit far fetched. But once I took my time to get everything needed into the confined space, looks pretty sharp if you ask me.
Pics?

RE: AMD's PR dept. They shit the bed when Steamroller tiptoed into the limelight. They were promising the Moon leading up to that launch and we all know what they delivered. As I remember, most of them (PR Flacks) were canned soon afterwards.

Now, I hear that they were giving some review sites crap about past negative comments concerning AMD. They refused Fury samples after not so good reviews on their R9-390 cards.

AMD needs to understand that we need to be able to trust our favorite reviewers to tell the truth about these products. Especially when you consider the price that we're expected to pay for them.

If they continue down the path of information suppression, I'll never buy from them again.

Yeah, the Fury line looks good to me and I want one or two in the future, but I'll go with their competition if they're playing reindeer games.
Posted on Reply
#148
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
john_Minor bug having crushes with the most used browser in the market? LOL nice one. I am seeing nvidia fans in a Greek forum testing drivers and settings on Chrome for a month now. And it's not only on 4K. Half a dozen drivers where having that problem. Of course Nvidia gave priority to gaming optimizations but it was no minor.
It was minor because the crashes were rare. It wasn't like it was a constant thing, making Chrome unusable, it happened maybe once an hour at the worst case. It affected SLI setups worst than single card setups(I don't even know if it actually even affected single GPU setups).
Posted on Reply
#149
cadaveca
My name is Dave
newtekie1It was minor because the crashes were rare. It wasn't like it was a constant thing, making Chrome unusable, it happened maybe once an hour at the worst case. It affected SLI setups worst than single card setups(I don't even know if it actually even affected single GPU setups).
Yes, it affects single cards, and it happens more than once an hour. However, most systems that do have the problem frequently are OC'ed, and anyone doing testing on an OC'd system can go toss a bone, as that's stupid testing methods (control needs to eliminate OC as part cause).
Posted on Reply
#150
Unregistered
Thought this article was balanced and well written, well done.
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