Thursday, January 5th 2023

AMD Confirms Ryzen 9 7950X3D and 7900X3D Feature 3DV Cache on Only One of the Two Chiplets

AMD today announced its new Ryzen 7000X3D high-end desktop processors to much fanfare, with availability slated for February 2023, you can read all about them in our older article. In our coverage, we noticed something odd about the cache sizes of the 12-core 7900X3D and 16-core 7950X3D. Whereas the 8-core, single-CCD 7800X3D comes with 104 MB of total cache (L2+L3), which works out to 1 MB L2 cache per core and 96 MB of L3 cache (32 MB on-die + 64 MB stacked 3DV cache); the dual-CCD 7900X3D and 7950X3D was shown with total caches of 140 MB and 144 MB, while they should have been 204 MB or 208 MB, respectively.

In our older article, we explored two possibilities—one that the 3DV cache is available on both CCDs but halved in size for whatever reason; and the second more outlandish possibility that only one of the two CCDs has stacked 3DV cache, while the other is a normal planar CCD with just the on-die 32 MB L3 cache. As it turns out, the latter theory is right! AMD put out high-resolution renders of the dual-CCD 7000X3D processors, where only one of the two CCDs is shown having the L3D (L3 cache die) stacked on top. Even real-world pictures of the older "Zen 3" 3DV cache CCDs from the 5800X3D or EPYC "Milan-X" processors show CCDs with 3DV caches having a distinct appearance with dividing lines between the L3D and the structural substrates over the regions of the CCD that have the CPU cores. In these renders, we see these lines drawn on only one of the two CCDs.
It shouldn't be hard for such an asymmetric cache setup to work in the real world from a software perspective, given that we are now firmly in the era of hybrid-core processors thanks to Intel and Arm. Even way before "Alder Lake," when AMD started shipping dual-CCD client processors with the Ryzen 3000 "Matisse" based on "Zen 2," the company closely collaborated with Microsoft to optimize OS scheduling such that high-performance and less-parallelized workloads such as games, are localized to just one of the two CCDs, to minimize DDR4 memory roundtrips.

Even before "Matisse," AMD and Microsoft confronted multi-threaded workload optimization challenges with dual-CCX architectures such as "Zen" and "Zen 2," where the OS scheduler would ideally want to localize gaming workload to a single CCX before saturating both CCXs on a single CCD, and then onward to the next CCD. This is achieved using methods such as CPPC2 preferred-core flagging, and which is why AMD highly recommends you to use their "Ryzen Balanced" Windows power-plan included with their Chipset drivers.

We predict that something similar is happening with the 12-core and 16-core 7000X3D processors—where gaming workloads can benefit from being localized to the 3DV cache-enabled CCD, and any spillover workloads (such as audio stack, network stack, background services, etc) are handled by the second CCD. In non-gaming workloads that scale across all 16 cores, the processor works like any other multi-core chip, it's just that the cores in the 3DV-enabled CCD have better performance from the larger victim cache. There shouldn't be any runtime errors arising from ISA mismatch, as the CPU core types on both CCDs are the same "Zen 4."

AMD Ryzen 7000X3D processors go on sale in February 2023.
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164 Comments on AMD Confirms Ryzen 9 7950X3D and 7900X3D Feature 3DV Cache on Only One of the Two Chiplets

#26
Vya Domus
PumperSeeing as 3D cache benefits primarily games and lower thread applications
Any kind of extra cache benefits everything, obviously to varying degrees.
Posted on Reply
#27
lemonadesoda
Multi-socket, multi-core, multi-thread, big.LITTLE, asymmetric cache. What a scheduling nightmare.
Posted on Reply
#28
Lei
MaraxFor content creation X3D cache have no significant impact (at least till today), but what have - lower clock speeds...
Pudget review 5800x vs 5800X3D

So this product will be target for gamers who make/render content on the same pc.
And it make sense to slap 3D cache on one die only, as games won't heavily use more than 8 cores. In practical use it happens to few of them normally, other 14 cores will be employed with low utilisation.
Hi,
So you're saying for content creation 13700kf is better than 7800x3d?

5800x CineBench R23 single-core 1619
5800x3d score 1491 (8% lower)

13700kf score 2126
7900x score 2041

Assuming 7800x3d won't have single-core score of more than 7900x which is already lower than 13700kf which is 420$
7800x3d perhaps 450$ at least

Posted on Reply
#30
Lei
big_glassesI'm curious how it'll perform, way too early to say anything, but the 'creators'(/workstation) that want it for the 3D boost will probably disappointed it's only on half

wait a minute, this article here shows 12600k (290$) is 4% faster than 5800x3d (450$) in Photoshop.
12700kf (currently 275$) is 15% faster in photoshop than 5800x3d (current price 350$)


12700kf is 50% faster but 27% cheaper in Unreal Engine than 5800x3d
53% faster in Adobe Premiere Pro
MaraxFor content creation X3D cache have no significant impact (at least till today), but what have - lower clock speeds...
Pudget review 5800x vs 5800X3D
I'm guessing single-core score of 7800x3d is 1688 (because 7700x is 5.4GHz vs 7800x3d 5GHz)
13700kf@394$ is 2126 which is more than 7950x@568$ 2072

so with 13700kf@~400$ we get 25% higher CineBench single-core score than 7800x3d@450$

Posted on Reply
#31
Redwoodz
AMD is smart, the CCD without the extra cache will have more thermal headroom due to increased area of diffusion.
Posted on Reply
#32
THU31
Not a fan of all this thread management stuff. And it will only work on Win 11.

But I would not buy any of these CPUs anyway. And the 7800X3D will probably be too expensive.
Posted on Reply
#33
umeng2002
Well just look at the boosts, the 7800X 3D is 5 GHz max. While the 7900 and 7950 3D chips are over 5.5 GHz max boost.

Maybe AMD did "solve" the voltage "issues" for OC'ing with V-cache.
Posted on Reply
#34
Lei
THU31Not a fan of all this thread management stuff. And it will only work on Win 11.

But I would not buy any of these CPUs anyway. And the 7800X3D will probably be too expensive.
I think best thing to buy now with 400$ is 13700kf. Until AMD beats it with 8800x on the AM5 socket on 2024.
Posted on Reply
#35
AnarchoPrimitiv
So far,, I've only seen one person mention this: perhaps in testing, AMD discovered that additional cache after the first V-cache chip on one CCD offered diminishing results that didn't warrant the additional cost of more v-cache? Let's face it, profitability is the first and foremost concern in any decision in a capitalist reality, so I think it's very safe to assume that this decision was guided by profitability more than anything else. Either way, It'll be fun to see Intel copying v-cache in the upcoming generations...after they initially bad mouth it of course as a "glued" together CPU.
Posted on Reply
#36
usiname
Intel's desperated dots are on rampage after the anonce of 7000X3D. What is next? geekbench and CPUZ?
Posted on Reply
#37
bug
GTX 970 has 0.5GB of VRAM on a narrower bus, people grill it to this day for that.
AMD adds cache for only half the cores, "that's ok for games", "let's wait for benchmarks"... Lovely, just lovely.
Posted on Reply
#38
Unregistered
Seems the reason is to allow higher frequency in the other CCD.
#39
hs4
This choice is understandable, since there is a not-so-small penalty for inter-die communication, as is known from the significant speedup in games on the 7950X with one CCD disabled. Rather, scheduling support will be needed, such that the OS-side scheduler will concentrate a group of threads of the same process on one of the dies.
Posted on Reply
#40
DeathtoGnomes
Its about time the X3D line showed up, been waiting specificially for this for a new personal build.
Posted on Reply
#41
Mysteoa
umeng2002Well just look at the boosts, the 7800X 3D is 5 GHz max. While the 7900 and 7950 3D chips are over 5.5 GHz max boost.

Maybe AMD did "solve" the voltage "issues" for OC'ing with V-cache.
Yes, by having the non Vcashe cores boost to over 5.5Ghz. It's still technically a 5.5Ghz+ CPU. We are still not sure, but it's likely that this is the case and also explains the lower TDP.
Posted on Reply
#42
Pumper
bugGTX 970 has 0.5GB of VRAM on a narrower bus, people grill it to this day for that.
AMD adds cache for only half the cores, "that's ok for games", "let's wait for benchmarks"... Lovely, just lovely.
It's almost like AMD is not claiming that Zen4 X3D will have 3DV on all cores, unlike nvidia, who were hiding the VRAM differences.
Posted on Reply
#43
Dimitriman
All that matters are benchmarks, don't care how they do it. I'm especially curious about the 7800x3d since it is SO drastically lower clocked vs 7700x. Probably going to get a tier lower performance in multithreaded apps but better gaming ofc.
Posted on Reply
#44
Lei
I think I'm eventually going to buy a 13700kf, or I wait for 14th-gen then find a used 13900kf or a new 14700kf
Posted on Reply
#45
Wirko
CammStarting to think that we will see 8000 series in a Zen / ZenC layout with those Epyc bound low cache cores making up the low power "e" cores, and with 3D Cache on the full fat Zen cores, and that this is just a harbinger of such.
I'd say exactly the opposite. We were wondering what AMD's attempt at doing P+E would look like, and the result is now known. It's tall.SHORT, haha. There won't be another attempt with Zen 4 + Zen 4c cores.

Also, Zen 4c seems pretty much specialised for certain server tasks, not really intended to become a universal core.
sLowEndHopefully there's no weird scheduler-related shenanigans resulting from this kind of design.
We've seen Alder Lake. Expect a rough start, then an improvement. Also, Microsoft may say we need a new Windows 11 update with major UI changes for that.
THU31And it will only work on Win 11.
That's for certain ... sadly.
Posted on Reply
#46
Max(IT)
What could go wrong ? AMD has a good record about software support to their hardware, right ? :shadedshu::kookoo:
Xex360Seems the reason is to allow higher frequency in the other CCD.
I don’t believe a single word about what AMD says… they are just like Intel and Nvidia.
The 95° were “normal” and expected, and now magically the TDP for the 3D models has been lowered to 120W (from 170W).
Posted on Reply
#47
FreedomEclipse
~Technological Technocrat~
So i guess we're not going to get a cheaper 5600X3D then
Posted on Reply
#48
Veseleil
This will be a nightmare for air coolers.
Posted on Reply
#49
Shtb
big_glassesedit: forgot the link to the article - www.phoronix.com/review/amd-5800x3d-linux/8
25 April 2022

Newer article:

www.phoronix.com/review/amd-5800x3d-linux6/4
16 September 2022.
bugGTX 970 has 0.5GB of VRAM on a narrower bus, people grill it to this day for that.
AMD adds cache for only half the cores, "that's ok for games", "let's wait for benchmarks"... Lovely, just lovely.
The 970 was claimed to be a 4GB card, not 3.5 (fast) + 0.5 (slow).

AMD claims 16 cores and 144MB of L2+L3 cache - and that's 16 cores with 144MB of L2+L3 cache.
If you'd like 64MB of 3D-cache on each CCD, write that explicitly.
Posted on Reply
#50
pavle
Another half baked product in a row, keep 'em rollin'.
Posted on Reply
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