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Russia's new supersonic bomber can outrun Britain's best fighter jet

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At least it's good looking... Vaguely resembling Concorde.
Less graceful (esp Concorde's ogival wing) - except for when Concorde's nose was hinged down - but even that looked better than the Soviet implementation on the Tu-144 and T-4 Sotka
 

Tatty_Two

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Don't assume others don't know about the two iraq wars. I've read a lot of military material on both and I'm sure jagjitnatt has too.

You mention f-117, yet it's not a heavy, large, fast bomber but a slow, small, stealthy one with a rather small payload, used against an arguably weak opponent.

Yes, there was a long bombing campaign in the first gulf war before the land troops went in, but what makes you think all that bombing was done with bombers only? Many planes participated in those operations and also a lot of cruise missiles were used.

Again, what ultimately defeated saddam, were the ground forced. Air power alone cannot depose a government, even if it is bombed to stone age.

Did saddam leave power in the first war? Well, no, because no one went to baghdad to do so.

Again, all that, was done against a relatively weak opponent. Using heavy bombers in a large scale in a war between two alsmot equal opponents would result in a large number of casualties on the bombers.

Firstly, with reference to your "Heavy" bombers, it was felt in the 80's and 90's (and with many nations still is) that "multi role" aircraft were the way to go, flexible and adaptable, smaller faster aircraft that were much less likely to get shot down, could match the enemy's fighter interceptors pretty much for speed and manouverability, and of course cheaper than single role heavy bombers. You are correct that air power will not win the war on it's own but no ground force goes anywhere without air superiority and things get a lot easier for the ground offensive when most of the enemies logistics and spirit have been completely broken.

To be fair, recent history is leaning towards air power supremacy and there is evidence that it alone could break the resolve of a opposing government, for example, take a look at Kosovo, in particular the bombing of Belgrade in the Former Yugoslav Republic, here is an extract from Wiki which is relevant to your point..........

"According to John Keegan, the capitulation of Yugoslavia in the Kosovo War marked a turning point in the history of warfare. It "proved that a war can be won by air power alone". By comparison, diplomacy had failed before the war, and the deployment of a large NATO ground force was still weeks away when Slobodan Milošević agreed to a peace deal"

I should add that eventually Milosevic did roll. It is unfortunate that I had the pleasure in visiting Iraq for both wars and spent a few months in Kosovo, neither were pretty, bombing even with the most advanced aircraft deploying them is very very ugly and is still indiscriminate to a certain extent, one day the world just might get to a place where we won't need to do it anymore......... even I will pray for that!
 
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Firstly, with reference to your "Heavy" bombers, it was felt in the 80's and 90's (and with many nations still is) that "multi role" aircraft were the way to go, flexible and adaptable, smaller faster aircraft that were much less likely to get shot down, could match the enemy's fighter interceptors pretty much for speed and manouverability, and of course cheaper than single role heavy bombers. You are correct that air power will not win the war on it's own but no ground force goes anywhere without air superiority and things get a lot easier for the ground offensive when most of the enemies logistics and spirit have been completely broken.

Well, yes, that was sort of my point, although I didn't directly point to it. Heavy bombers are becoming less and less viable for major wars.

To be fair, recent history is leaning towards air power supremacy and there is evidence that it alone could break the resolve of a opposing government, for example, take a look at Kosovo, in particular the bombing of Belgrade in the Former Yugoslav Republic, here is an extract from Wiki which is relevant to your point..........

"According to John Keegan, the capitulation of Yugoslavia in the Kosovo War marked a turning point in the history of warfare. It "proved that a war can be won by air power alone". By comparison, diplomacy had failed before the war, and the deployment of a large NATO ground force was still weeks away when Slobodan Milošević agreed to a peace deal"

I should add that eventually Milosevic did roll. It is unfortunate that I had the pleasure in visiting Iraq for both wars and spent a few months in Kosovo, neither were pretty, bombing even with the most advanced aircraft deploying them is very very ugly and is still indiscriminate to a certain extent, one day the world just might get to a place where we won't need to do it anymore......... even I will pray for that!

Yes, and I never said otherwise. The discussion was about "bombers", not "bombing", which is very effective, but we should not forget that in the end, you'd have to use ground forces if the enemy refuses to surrender after bombings.

Also, it'd be much, much harder to effectively and broadly bomb an equal or near equal enemy who can properly defend themselves.
 
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FordGT90Concept

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It is unfortunate that I had the pleasure in visiting Iraq for both wars and spent a few months in Kosovo, neither were pretty, bombing even with the most advanced aircraft deploying them is very very ugly and is still indiscriminate to a certain extent, one day the world just might get to a place where we won't need to do it anymore......... even I will pray for that!
I don't because that invokes biological warfare using engineered viruses--the mass murder of people without a single "shot" fired. Picture the hysteria of people being shelled/bombed then picture the hysteria from viral assassination.
 
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WTF is this, some attempt by "journalists" to do some scaremongering?
This "new" bomber was made in USSR, and being modernised wont give it chance to run away from air-to-air missiles. It never ever had the option to do so, even when it was just introduced.
Does somebody realy think that they are going to launch cruise missiles with few thousand km range by flying right near to UK? xD
 
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You two really need to do some reading on Operation Desert Storm (1991). The air campaign lasted a month (17 January 1991 - 28 February 1991); the ground campaign lasted a few days (24-28 February 1991). The air campaign was kicked off by F-117s taking out virtually every RADAR in the country as well as major communication and military infrastructure. By the time the land forces moved in, Hussein's military was blind, deaf, and air support non-existant. The F-117s launched from a secret base in Saudi Arabia, not aircraft carriers.

This should refresh your memory:
See all those black and white videos? All of them were sourced from the F-117s. From the Iraqi perspective:
All of those shots? None hit. Not a one. F-117 though? They hit everything they pointed at.

Well, you are talking about Iraq here, that's a country with a military budget of less than 1% of US's military budget and 10 years back it was even lower. F117 was effective there for 2 reasons:
1. It isn't a bomber but a strike aircraft, difference being the payload, a conventional bomber carries up to 100 bombs (80,000 lbs) but F117 could only carry 2 bombs (4,000 lbs) in a sortie. Just look at the difference there. B52, B2 are bombers.
2. Iraq relied on Soviet era SAMs (60s and early 70s technology) and radars which could not detect stealthy aircraft like F117 which was much smaller than a conventional bomber.

Countries like China, Russia, India today have AESA radars in L-band and S-band which can detect stealth aircraft at large distances(100+ kms), although they still need to rely on the X-band radars to get a lock-on.

The only advantage stealth aircraft have is against another aircraft which do not have anything other than a X-band radar to guide their missiles. Although some Russian aircraft like Su-35 have huge radars like the Irbis-E which can pump huge amounts of power to have long detection ranges.

You can still use bombers against adversaries like Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, and 3rd world countries which don't have any modern weapons, but take your bombers(including B2) to say China, and then you'll find out how effective they actually are.

No wonder the whole world is moving away from bombers and towards multi-role aircraft capable of air superiority and strike roles. F-35, Rafale, EF Typhoon, Gripen, Su-30, J-10, PakFa are just some of the examples.

But one never really wants to bring a knife to a gun fight, does one?


Perhaps Her Majesty needs an upgrade? :p
This graphic image looks a little incorrect.

F111 in high capability? That is not even in service. The EF Typhoon and Rafale are very potent, better than F16/18/15.
Their delta canard config allows them to be highly manoeuvrable and agile. Rafale can be operated from a carrier and both of these are compatible with a huge range of armament.

The MICA and Meteor(upcoming, compatible with Rafale and Typhoon) missiles are the best in the world in their respective roles and US is still developing the AIM-120D which would be an incremental upgrade to 120C

The radar cross section(RCS) of both fighters is reduced to below 3m2, and both have AESA upgrades on their way which allows them to see the enemy first, still hidden, fire first from longer distances and turn back.

US is betting HIGHLY on F-35, but it wouldn't be able to take on any of the above aircraft in WVR engagements.
 
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FordGT90Concept

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You can still use bombers against adversaries like Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, and 3rd world countries which don't have any modern weapons, but take your bombers(including B2) to say China, and then you'll find out how effective they actually are.
Extremely. The only difference between the two scenarios is F-22s would have to escort them in and out of hostile territory in case fighters are scrambled to counter.
 

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And of course the US would Tomahawk the crap out of their Early warning systems along with their airfields, SAM sites etc etc to lessen the risks beforehand, you would probably get about 3 months of long range bombardment before any piece of manned metal passed through their sky's, probably before that happened it would have already escalated to un-thinkable proportions.
 

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And of course the US would Tomahawk the crap out of their Early warning systems along with their airfields, SAM sites etc etc to lessen the risks beforehand, you would probably get about 3 months of long range bombardment before any piece of manned metal passed through their sky's, probably before that happened it would have already escalated to un-thinkable proportions.

I agree and by the time any state that has Nuclear bombs in Planes in the sky it probably also has launched its Nuclear Missiles from its land silo's and its Sea based assets.
Nuclear bombers were intended as a ""Fail safe retaliation"" Not as a 1st line of Offence

General Dickass says

""Damm them they launched their Missiles Scramble the LRNB (Long range Nuclear Bombers) we will blow the shit out of whats left of their god forsakin country after our missiles have Landed""

Part of the "M AD " stratagy

Or Comrade Fuckofski говорит "Damm их они начали их Ракетную Схватку LRNB (Долго диапазон Ядерные Бомбардировщики), мы унесем дерьмо из whats, оставленного их бога forsakin страна после того, как наши ракеты Посадили" Часть 'М. нашей эры' stratagy
 
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And of course the US would Tomahawk the crap out of their Early warning systems along with their airfields, SAM sites etc etc to lessen the risks beforehand, you would probably get about 3 months of long range bombardment before any piece of manned metal passed through their sky's, probably before that happened it would have already escalated to un-thinkable proportions.

in the days of drones like we are now do you think it would be so soon?

at the point now where they could claim the skies without the need to send any manned craft into the line of fire.
 

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The Tomahawk is a subsonic cruise missile and it's equivalent would be the Nirbhay.



The BrahMos is the world's first and only maneuverable supersonic cruise missile (Also the FASTEST) - it also has a great range of upto 290kms (supersonic missiles are generally in the 90-150km range). This combined with it's high accuracy make it the best supersonic cruise missile available - many countries are bidding to buy it - it's especially good for short range coast/naval engagements.

It can bypass even the current NATO ship protection systems like AEGIS.
The threat is so serious - the US Navy has commissioned multiple projects to get equivalent missile systems either ingeniously or buying it along with a better ship protection system.

BrahMos


Tomahawk

 
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Tatty_Two

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in the days of drones like we are now do you think it would be so soon?

at the point now where they could claim the skies without the need to send any manned craft into the line of fire.
Good point although we now move into the realms of EMP defence systems, I would imagine them drones would just fall out of the sky.
 
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next time you guys see something about "new modern russian bombers/fighters/rockets etc." (designed 30-40 years ago) consider info in this article before you belive in any word of the info
sry for bad translation but i used bing and i dont have time to check whole text for mistakes
ps. bold on text is mine

Will meet Europe of Russian (des)informational attack?

Ralitsa Kovacheva

Russia waged an aggressive dezinformacionna campaign against the European Union. Some call it openly hybrid or a propaganda war. Huge masses of russian speaking population in Ukraine, former Soviet republics outside the EU, as well as those within the Union, are directly exposed to the Russian propaganda. Moreover, it comes to people, most of whom do not speak any other language, and Russian media are their only source of information. In other Member States, where you can't rely on the direct influence of Russian or Russian language literary media, holds successful propaganda through "third countries", disguised as rusofilstvo, anti-European (anti-Western) or nationalistic pathos. Such is the case, but not only.
The journalist Georgi Gotev recalls how Moscow had failed to mobilize public opinion against the shale gas (in Romania and Bulgarian) in support of the South stream gas pipeline (in Hungary, Serbia, Bulgarian, Italy, Austria), against European sanctions imposed on Russia (in Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Cyprus, Greece) or against the Ukrainian Government determined by Moscow as a "fascist" (in Bulgarian, and Serbia). The sentiments are known to the Kremlin of prominent (and not-so-prominent) European politicians-nationalists – the leader of the French "national front" marine Le Pen even took a Russian loan to finance his party. Moscow holds the warm relationships with these parties, which works against the EU "from the inside". In Bulgarian is a well-known effect – we watched it most clearly in the face of Volen Siderov and his party, "attack", but also in the overall deployment of the strategy for cultural, spiritual and religious closeness with Russia as a counterpoint to the foreign kolonialistki, demoraliziraŝi, and antib″lgarski influences of the West.
The problem is serious, but the possibilities for a response are limited and contradictory. The EU is aware that it must oppose the Russian dezinformacionna campaign. Particularly active in this regard are the Baltic countries, where the influence of the Russian propaganda is most strongly. Russia invests huge resources in maintaining the influential media, for example, the international television network RT with the audience (in her own statements) from 700 million viewers in over 100 countries and the creation of new ones, like the Sputnik-online platform and radio services in various languages, predendiraŝa to provide "alternative" information and saying "from what they did not" established at the end of the lasta year in response to the "Western propaganda". According to time magazine, by 2010 the annual budget of the RT is $ 300 million – for comparison, the budget of the BBC World Service Group, that inclueds tv, radio and online channels is 376 million for 2014-15. In addition, Russia has built a lean and costly infrastructure (including a set of strategies, supporting points machine, an army of trolls and troll softwareas well as undercover structures in civil society) for the keeping of information warfare extensively described by Yolanta Darčevska by the Polish Institute of Eastern Studies (see the article on Vladimir Shopov in the subject).
Russian State television broadcast propaganda in Goebbles' style and lie around the clock told time magazine cover m Edgars Rinkevič, Adviser to the Latvian Foreign Minister in January. At the same time, the four Foreign Ministers of Denmark, Estonia, Lithuania and the uk came up with a letter to High Representative for foreign and security policy Mogerini, in which Federica urge EU to respond to the Russian dezinformacionna campaign. Describe her as the dissemination of false and misleading information through a range of funding (State controlled televisions, Internet trolls, suspicious third parties). The goal is to discredit the EU to undermine support for the legitimate Governments in the region, to demoralize the local population, to disorientate the Western politicians and to undermine the concept of a free, independent, pluralistic media. In the letter the Russian informational campaign is defined as "a real threat to the security of the eastern borders of the EU."
In response, the EU must reinforce the presence of their positions and deconstructs the propaganda proactively, urge the four States. It offers a whole range of measures, including training of journalists, creating an online platform with available resources for media, enhanced exchanges of European shows and movies, the effective cooperation of the European media regulators in respect of infringements of the principle of impartiality, etc..
In fact, that the Baltic States dreaming is a European russian language tv which openly contradicts the Russian propaganda. The idea, however, is the least controversial – what's up with freedom of speech, with which Europe so be proud if the EU create its kontrapropagandna machine? Thesis, which Russia immediately put into circulation as part of the antievropejskiâ propaganda tools. Titles in this sense emerged these days and in the Bulgarian press ("the EU makes the Ministry of truth" in the "work"). But beyond the propaganda, the issues are present and are tough – we asked them after the attack against the "Charly Ebdo." I have, is it possible to question its values in order to respond to a reciprocal of the threat? Is it possible the truth instead of our making available, to make us weak? Where does freedom (of speech) and starts the security – the very acceptance that such a limit exists, also is not unique and is samopodrazbiraŝo.
This is the problem – that our own values, such as freedom of expression, pluralism, democracy is used against us, believes the Bulgarian mp Boris Stanimirov (Reformist block), Member of the Parliamentary Commission on foreign policy. Bulgarian and the other countries of the former Eastern bloc are more susceptible to Russian propaganda, as well as the Baltic States, which have Russian language literary communities – this is officially recognised in the EU, explained Darlington to the Reduta. BG. Russian propaganda holds in any argument, on any of our disagreement, so as to turn it to their advantage, says mp and gives an example of media campaign to "mobilisation" of the army and allegations of "occupation" of the United States and NATO are Bulgarian for the deployment of a NATO battalion in the country (both claims were disproved, but conspiracy theories continue to flood the public space). According to Boris Darlington is good discussion at the EU level communication has passed at the level of foreign relations. It's not about freedom of speech, and for security and measures must be thinking in that order, he thinks. This is the first of this kind and scale challenge for United Europe since its creation and so finding the answer is so difficult. We have to look at the Russian propaganda as a time bomb – this is a psychological weapon, brainwashing the public consciousness, so we have to defend ourselves by having armed enemy – with proportionate measures, believes MEP. For example, to stop the broadcast of all Russian channels on EU territory or in the framework of sanctions against Russia to be penalized not only political parties and companies, and media.
In the EU, however, not ready for such extreme measures. That's why the decision of the European Council of 19 March was to instruct the HR Federica Mogerini to present an action plan for strategic communication, with the first step, establishment of a communications team.
Bulgarian participates in all working groups involved with the topic of the European level. However this happens far away from public attention, and in the current political agenda topic did not attend. Not observed and active attempts by the Government and Parliament to seek a solution. Naturally, no one wants to be accused of snatches of pluralism and freedom of speech. On top of everything, in the face of the party "attack" Russian propaganda has its official spokesman in Parliament and in public space, by Alpha tv. In the complete absence of self-regulation in the media sector, pristrastnoto, not one-sided, manipulative and downright false (des) information to be sanctioned or at least publicly condemned. The slipping of propaganda on the line antievropejsko and nationalist discourse, without display directly misses position makes her recognition more difficult, and its action even more effective. As a result, 33% of Bulgarians want the country to join the Eurasian rather than in the European Union (by Alpha research), which is disturbingly high rate, regardless of the pro-European majority.
Against this background, inevitably comes the question of the role of the media – even the EU is looking for a solution with a knee-jerk reaction in the provision of (more) media resources or creating pan-European media, despite abundant evidence that similar measures have not given desired results in the past. Because, in the end, the media decide what, how and in what way (with what sources) to reflect. Repeatedly was the habit of the Bulgarian media to use Russian information sources to reflect European themes, without having professional considerations (for example, to see a different perspective, to give the word to the other party in the dispute, etc.) and more without having to cull through the facts of the allegations, the guest and, ultimately, propaganda-moreis the topic you are reading in "Of the vacuum". For comparison, in Estonia the opposite is the case. There the Government has finally, after years of debate, decided to set up a Russian channel of Estonian public television to start broadcasting in September this year. Arco Olesk, journalist and Director of the Communications Center on Science and inovaci University in Tallinn, told about the Reduta. BGthe topic for the Russian propaganda and its influence in society is a hot topic in Estonia. Much discussed, although there is no decision yet to be banned Russian television channels. Recently, pravitelstvot has appointed a special officer responsible for psychological defense, whose role is to monitor public sentiment and to propose ways of counteracting that reduce the vulnerability of society from the Russian propaganda.
More importantly, however, is that the Estonian media are generally very aware of the threat from Russian propaganda and successfully neutralize action, thinks her Arco Olesk. The latest example is the experience of the Russian Sputnik media to establish Estonian service. When it becomes clear that the media is looking for collaborators in Estonia, many russian speaking journalists publicly declare that they will not accept the proposals, told Arco Olesk. Against this background, the Bulgarian media reality seem not to have who knows what forces – because of unclear ownership and financing of media and related (again in a vague way) political and economic infrastructure, with an equally obscure ownership and financing, but also because of the rapidly falling standards of quality, completely neglected ethical norms, the ineffective regulation and self-regulation of the absentee media. As wrote Vladimir shopov, live in "TROLandiâ", in which the public environment is so "pinched" that can generate fabrications and isterizira society. "and makes it more successfully. While waiting for "Brussels" to come up with something that won't help.
 
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FordGT90Concept

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And of course the US would Tomahawk the crap out of their Early warning systems along with their airfields, SAM sites etc etc to lessen the risks beforehand, you would probably get about 3 months of long range bombardment before any piece of manned metal passed through their sky's, probably before that happened it would have already escalated to un-thinkable proportions.
LRS-B could support manned and unmanned flight. This might be the beginning of the end of manned bombers.


It can bypass even the current NATO ship protection systems like AEGIS.
The threat is so serious - the US Navy has commissioned multiple projects to get equivalent missile systems either ingeniously or buying it along with a better ship protection system.
AEGIS is just the tracking system. THAAD counters ICBMs, Patriot counters long-medium range, Sea Sparrow covers medium-short range, and Goalkeeper covers short range. Several of these systems are being replaced over the next few decades by laser systems that simply don't miss.


Why hasn't the USA invested in upgrading Tomahawk? a) because every missile is expensive and b) they're pretty easy for enemies to detect. Guided gravity bombs out of a bomber, not so much. They're also really cheap and pack a lot more bang for the buck.
 
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The Tomahawk is a subsonic cruise missile and it's equivalent would be the Nirbhay.
There are a few similar missiles out there already. The best known I suppose is kh-555, a conventional variant of kh-55, although not much is known about it.

The BrahMos is the world's first and only maneuverable supersonic cruise missile (Also the FASTEST) - it also has a great range of upto 290kms (supersonic missiles are generally in the 90-150km range). This combined with it's high accuracy make it the best supersonic cruise missile available - many countries are bidding to buy it - it's especially good for short range coast/naval engagements.
First in what, exactly; maneuverability? There were already many supersonic cruise missiles before it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile#Supersonic

To claim it's the best is a bit bold. It might as well be, but this reads more like a sales pitch.

It can bypass even the current NATO ship protection systems like AEGIS.
The threat is so serious - the US Navy has commissioned multiple projects to get equivalent missile systems either ingeniously or buying it along with a better ship protection system.
It's not impossible to intercept such a missile, but it'd be very hard to do so. New tactics and a layered defense system would be required, although a large number of missiles launched at once could overwhelm the defenses.

It's seems that, for now, US navy is mostly focusing on finding efficient ways to shoot down such missiles, or to simply stay out of their range and destroy their launch platforms with air attacks before they can become a threat. Developing a similar missile would help, if it had a considerably longer range, but it'd be useless if enemy's launch platforms remained undetected until it was too late, for example concealed coastal positions.

Saying all that, what does brahmos have to do with tomahawk anyway? They are two entirely different missiles for different purposes.

What do they have to do with this thread?
 
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This graphic image looks a little incorrect.

F111 in high capability? That is not even in service.
It's outdated material that was taken from a website with a rather weighted opinion on the matter. On this page here.


What I was trying to say is, if they're all you've got, and they're not meeting your expectations, then buy some better fighters.
The EF Typhoon and Rafale are very potent, better than F16/18/15.
I beg to differ. There's still nothing that can compete with an F-15 except an F-22. And the F-18 Super Hornet is better than either of those as well. Better than an F-16...maybe.
 

qubit

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Is it me, or does that thing look like Concorde?

Typical of the Russians to make a knock-off isn't it?
 

CAPSLOCKSTUCK

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The USSR had Concordski but even that cant be called a copy of Concorde.



 
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sneekypeet

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Points already given. Pro Tip: do not post pr0n at TPU, thanks!
 

CAPSLOCKSTUCK

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Eurofighter Typhoon

Sukhoi Su-35
Top speed
2,495 km/h EUROFIGHTER
2,500 km/h SUKHOI
Engine type
Eurojet EJ200
Saturn AL-31
Range
3,790 km
3,600 km
Manufacturer
Eurofighter
Sukhoi
Wingspan
11 m
15 m
Cruise speed
1,838 km/h
1,400 km/h
Length
16 m
22 m
Weight
11,000 kg
18,400 kg
 
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I think Cyber Warfare will become very important in the near future. If you can know exactly the details of your enemy you have already won.

EDIT: Being able to disrupt your enemy without even using military force is compelling.
 

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Yeah, as more and more aircraft go unmanned, the digital security systems in these aircraft as well as the infrastructure that connects them to their commanders becomes more important than the aircraft itself.
 

Tatty_Two

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As I mentioned earlier, apparently there is some research in the EMP field for defence systems, I don't know much about the technology involved in harnessing a device with enough power to send waves of pulses into the skies with high area coverage but if it does happen then anything electro mechanical could be compromised, could be a real game changer, although my limited knowledge cannot for the life of me imagine how you could harness similar EMP output to a nuclear explosion.
 
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