MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

[Deleted member 24505]

Funny how my Asus B350 got updated to Agesa 0.0.7.2 so does in fact support the new 3000 series, only Asus , ASRock and Biostar have released new Bios updates to the latest Agesa 0.0.7.2 code that was recently released just a few weeks ago, Is it only MSI that does not?

 

[RH92]

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html TPU "news" staff, y'all should be extremely ashamed that Guru3D just did a better job than you.

True Guru 3D did some proper work instead of simply calling MSI greedy but still doesn't explain why Asus has already pushed bios with Zen 2 support on their 300 series so the chip limitation argument can't explain everything !

 

[notb]

and if you find out MSI are the only brand that doesnt let you upgrade, they get zero money from your future builds

They get zero money from my CPU upgrade anyway. And why wouldn't they get money from my future build? I'll be replacing both mobo and CPU then, right?

For better part of a decade 90-95% of x86 PC owners were totally fine with new sockets coming every 2 years. This means there's a big enough group that should be OK with MSI decision (even if it was pure greed, which seems not to be the case).
MSI should have no problem keeping their market share - they'll just focus on a more profitable client group who buy stuff more often. This is what all companies do. You're never after all possible consumers. You're "giving" the worst to your competition.

X470 Gaming Plus here so I guess no problems coming.

You really have no guarantee. That's the whole point. AMD never said that cutting edge CPUs will be available for all AM4 motherboards.
"AM4 supported until X" could simply mean you'll be able to buy any CPU (in case yours dies). We knew from the start that moving to 7nm and different architecture could mean huge problems.

but still doesn't explain why Asus has already pushed bios with Zen 2 support on their 300 series so the chip limitation argument can't explain everything !

Which motherboard precisely? People on forums mention particular models that have huge BIOS storage (up to 128MB). So some will work and some may not. At this point we don't know that for sure.
What we know is that AMD is very quiet about this.

 

[R0H1T]

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html





TPU "news" staff, y'all should be extremely ashamed that Guru3D just did a better job than you.

Cute, why does the incompatible BIOS(es) elude the likes of ASUS, Asrock et al?

 

[RH92]

Which motherboard precisely?

Most of their X370s and probably B350s aswell i haven't checked for all of them .

People on forums mention particular models that have huge BIOS storage (up to 128MB). So some will work and some may not.

Peoples are confusing MB ( byte ) with Mb ( bits ) ASUS boards have 128Mb wich equals to 16MB so yeah nothing special here to my understanding that's the case with all 300 series .

What we know is that AMD is very quiet about this.

Considering AMD has probably very litle to do with this i don't see any particular reason why AMD should go crazy on what seems to be an MSI only realated issue ( that yet remains to be confirmed ) .

We better wait for an official MSI statement before jumping on any conclusion !

 

[kings]

It will be perfectly normal if some boards don´t receive the updates, either due to lack of size in Bios, weak power circuit, etc ...

But until there's something official from AMD or the manufacturers, this could be just smoke. We will see how things progress.

 

[notb]

Peoples are confusing MB ( byte ) with Mb ( bits ) ASUS boards have 128Mb wich equals to 16MB so yeah nothing special here to my understanding that's the case with all 300 series .

Correct. I went through current lineup. There are some motherboards with 32MB. Haven't seen anything larger.
Sorry, BIOS storage capacity is not something I'm usually thinking about (and no consumer should, to be honest).

Considering AMD has probably very litle to do with this i don't see any particular reason why AMD should go crazy on what seems to be an MSI only realated issue .

Because it's AMD's platform. They could have just told MSI to put use larger memory, because it will be handy 2 years later. That's what you expect from a business partner.
Instead, we have (still: potentially) a sad situation when such a tiny detail ruins one of the main reasons people moved to AMD.
This is also a big PR problem for the Red team.

And this kind of cooperation problems is nothing new. Did you already forget how Ryzen launch looked? Motherboard makers didn't get the specification early enough to prepare mobos. They came late and 1st generation was quite poor. There was also a problem with coolers (similar reason).

AMD is a big and experienced company. They shouldn't make such simple errors. And we should demand more.
Once in a while we have a discussion with "why aren't OEMs using Ryzen"? Well... it does seem like AMD is not a model business partner...

We should better wait for an official MSI statement before jumping on any conclusion !

Since this went public and the problem seems real, MSI is most likely trying to find a way to make Zen 2 compatible (maybe working together with AMD). I wouldn't expect an official statement anytime soon.

I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.

 

[EarthDog]

I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.

AMD said the SOCKET is supported to 2020. AMD did not mention a chipset IIRC.

 

[R0H1T]

I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.

I guess in the age of Intel, where they've introduced 3 new sockets since SKL in 3 years, you've forgotten what that means? LGA 775 ring a bell perhaps?

 

[Assimilator]

There is an easy way to determine if what Guru3D posted is correct: if you have a non-MSI board that you updated to Zen 2 microcode, read the part number of the BIOS chip, and post it! MSI X370 XPower Titanium Gaming is confirmed to have a 16MB/128MiB BIOS chip, so if other boards that do support the new microcode have larger-capacity chips, the answer is clear.

They could have just told MSI to put use larger memory, because it will be handy 2 years later. That's what you expect from a business partner.

Based on my anecdote I posted earlier in the thread, I reckon MSI takes a "cost down" approach to implementing CPU manufacturers' designs. Instead of simply implementing the reference design, and then *supplementing* it with better or more components as needed, MSI does the opposite and cuts out bits until the design no longer works... then they add back the last bit that made the thing worked, and ship it.

In this case, they probably looked at the reference BIOS chip, then looked at the BIOS file size (maybe removed a whole bunch of null bytes), and determined that actually, the reference BIOS chip of 32MB is "unnecessarily large", so they substituted a 16MB chip - never considering what that would mean down the line.

This sort of miserly penny-pinching is what saves companies millions in the short term and wins managers performance awards, but when the bad PR comes back to bite...

 

[R0H1T]

I doubt this saved them millions, a few hundred thousand $ at best & cheapskates sounds just about right this time!

 

[notb]

Based on my anecdote I posted earlier in the thread, I reckon MSI takes a "cost down" approach to implementing CPU manufacturers' designs. Instead of simply implementing the reference design, and then *supplementing* it with better or more components as needed, MSI does the opposite and cuts out bits until the design no longer works... then they add back the last bit that made the thing worked, and ship it.

Isn't this a standard approach? Do you think they shouldn't do it like that?

In this case, they probably looked at the reference BIOS chip, then looked at the BIOS file size (maybe removed a whole bunch of null bytes), and determined that actually, the reference BIOS chip of 32MB is "unnecessarily large", so they substituted a 16MB chip - never considering what that would mean down the line.

And AMD should simply tell them: "hey, we're making a huge hype around AM4 being easy to upgrade in the future, but it will need 32MB ROM. Don't use anything smaller."
This is what you EXPECT from a business partner.

When you buy a piece of hardware or software from a large supplier, they're expected to send you very detailed documentation, organize training and support during implementation and afterwards.
But more importantly: they usually provide a consultant who sits in your company and makes sure everything works.

I'm pretty sure there's an AMD guy sitting in MSI office or a taxi drive away. What was he doing when they decided to save $0.5 per board on ROM?
What about certification? Isn't AMD checking these products before they launch?

 

[jigar2speed]

Not sure you know what Journalism is !

Journalism is foremost verifying your information before publishing and im afraid this didn't happened here since we don't have any official statement from MSI . You are confusing Journalism with Sensationalism #clickbait !

Its really sad that a lot of folks don't understand sarcasm but still get what's clickbait.

 

[las]

Not liking the idea of old mobos and new cpu's anyway.

 

[RH92]

Because it's AMD's platform. They could have just told MSI to put use larger memory, because it will be handy 2 years later. That's what you expect from a business partner. Instead, we have (still: potentially) a sad situation when such a tiny detail ruins one of the main reasons people moved to AMD.
This is also a big PR problem for the Red team.

I think you are still confused . ASUS with 16GB bios storage is already supporting Zen 2 on their 300series and 16GB seems to be common on all 300series motherboards regardless of the manufacturer so the bios storage limitation argument doesn't hold water . You are trying to blame AMD when everything tends to indicate that they have nothing to do with this !

Since this went public and the problem seems real, MSI is most likely trying to find a way to make Zen 2 compatible (maybe working together with AMD). I wouldn't expect an official statement anytime soon. I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.

Again you are confused . Up untill now MSI never maid an official statement saying they are dropping Zen 2 support on their 300 series , all this story comes from the words of an MSI employee who might or might not be spreading BS so peoples should stop acting as if all this was official and most importantly stop jumping onto conclusions before we get a better picture of what's going on .

 

[s8wc3]

I opened the X370 titanium BIOS in a hex editor, unless i'm retarded (likely) there is over 230KB free. Probably closer to 250. If you can't fit a microcode update in that..... lol. I'm pretty sure Intel's mc is about 2K, not sure about AMD's, but it sure as hell could fit in 230K.

 

[notb]

already supporting Zen 2 on their 300series

Proof?

 

[1usmus]

Come on guys, Its not funny anymore, this is fake

 

[RH92]

Proof?

Google is your friend !

 

[notb]

Google is your friend !

So you can't prove it, right?

 

[RH92]

So you can't prove it, right?

Should i take this as trolling ?

 

[r00lz]

MSI and Gigabyte dont bother about older than 1 year old motherboard BIOS in general. Longest support of Motherboard BIOS has ASUS and ASrock

 

[RH92]

Its really sad that a lot of folks don't understand sarcasm but still get what's clickbait.

Yeah even more sad that nothing in your comment indicates you are being sacrastic but i guess we are supposed to read through peoples minds nowadays ....

 

[s8wc3]

MSI and Gigabyte dont bother about older than 1 year old motherboard BIOS in general. Longest support of Motherboard BIOS has ASUS and ASrock

Agreed. Though, i've had gigabyte video cards get bios updates years after the fact. Priorities, right?

 

[notb]

Should i take this as trolling ?

Take it as whatever you want.
Has any motherboard manufacturer officially said that 300-series motherboards will be updated to work with Zen 2?
Yes/no?
Also a reminder:
"Zen 2" != "Ryzen 3000-series"