Email about AMD class action lawsuit

[moproblems99]

How-To Geek: CPU Basics: Multiple CPUs, Cores, and Hyper-Threading Explained

Unlike hyper-threading, there are no tricks here — a dual-core CPU literally has two central processing units on the CPU chip. A quad-core CPU has four central processing units, an octa-core CPU has eight central processing units, and so on.

I love the recursive definition that a multicore cpu has multiple CPUs in the CPU. That is frowned upon in the academic world.

 

[Bill_Bright]

That is frowned upon in the academic world.

No its not. Marketing hype is, however.

Since a whole became a list of parts called a definition...

But that's your definition. There is nothing that says the FPU must be discrete or integrated on the same die with the CPU.

If the recipe for chocolate chip cookies includes 1/2 cup of chopped pecans, and you leave out the pecans, does that mean they are no longer chocolate chip cookies?

You didn't answer this:

Since you have decided you can define core anyway you want, what is your definition of a dual core processor? A quad core?

Since you have decide the FPU is a core too, how many cores does the Intel Core 2 Dual E8500 have? It has an integrated FPU. So is it 2 or 3?

 

[moproblems99]

No its not. Marketing hype is, however.

I always lost points when I defined something as itself...guess I went to the wrong schools.

 

[Bill_Bright]

...guess I went to the wrong schools.

Maybe. For my degrees and certs, we learned the definitions they taught. We did not get to define things based on our own opinions of how we thought they should be defined.

As far as defining something as itself, there are lots of products that work that way. A battery, for example, can be made up of a single cell, or multiple cells. And those cells can be totally discrete (separate) like those found in a 2 D-Cell flashlight, or integrated into a single housing like a SLA (sealed lead-acid) battery found in a UPS or your car battery.

For example. A single cell AA battery is a battery. It is also a single cell.

Strap two AAs cells together, and you still have just one battery. Put 4 together, you still have a single battery. So 4 batteries make 1 battery. And that is true if you strap all 4 in series to make one 6VDC battery or in parallel to make one 1.5VDC battery, or in series/parallel to make one 3VDC. It is still 4 batteries that are cells in 1 battery.

Note a SLA battery. It is made up of 6 cells. But together they make 1 battery. Inside a UPS, there may be two of those SLA batteries. But strapped together, they make just one battery and individually, they are now acting as cells.

A CPU can have 1 core and still be a CPU. A CPU can have 4 cores and still be a (as in 1) CPU. Each of those cores be be tasked to perform separate tasks at the same time, in effect, as 4 separate CPUs, or they can be tasked to work together as one more powerful CPU to perform a single task more quickly. Either way, on a dual or quad core processor die, that die is "physically" divided into those separate cores. They are NOT "virtual" dividing lines (as HT might be described). And they can even be disabled individually as AMD did in the past with some of their quads to make 3 core processors.

 

[moproblems99]

Maybe. For my degrees and certs, we learned the definitions they taught. We did not get to define things based on our own opinions of how we thought they should be defined.

As far as defining something as itself, there are lots of products that work that way. A battery, for example, can be made up of a single cell, or multiple cells. And those cells can be totally discrete (separate) like those found in a 2 D-Cell flashlight, or integrated into a single housing like a SLA (sealed lead-acid) battery found in a UPS or your car battery.

For example. A single cell AA battery is a battery. It is also a single cell.

Strap two AAs cells together, and you still have just one battery. Put 4 together, you still have a single battery. So 4 batteries make 1 battery. And that is true if you strap all 4 in series to make one 6VDC battery or in parallel to make one 1.5VDC battery, or in series/parallel to make one 3VDC. It is still 4 batteries that are cells in 1 battery.

Note a SLA battery. It is made up of 6 cells. But together they make 1 battery. Inside a UPS, there may be two of those SLA batteries. But strapped together, they make just one battery and individually, they are now acting as cells.

A CPU can have 1 core and still be a CPU. A CPU can have 4 cores and still be a (as in 1) CPU. Each of those cores be be tasked to perform separate tasks at the same time, in effect, as 4 separate CPUs, or they can be tasked to work together as one more powerful CPU to perform a single task more quickly. Either way, on a dual or quad core processor die, that die is "physically" divided into those separate cores. They are NOT "virtual" dividing lines (as HT might be described). And they can even be disabled individually as AMD did in the past with some of their quads to make 3 core processors.

And full circle, we still don't know what a core is.

We do know what a battery cell is though. An anode, a cathode, and an electrolyte mixture.

Edit: if we were to remove the anode, is it still a battery? What about the cathode? What about the electrolyte?

 

[Bill_Bright]

And full circle, we still don't know what a core is.

Sure we do. But since it does not seem to agree with your own definitions, you don't want to accept the definitions as taught in schools.

It is not full circle. It is an out of control spiral. So I'm done.

 

[moproblems99]

Sure we do. But since it does not seem to agree with your own definitions, you don't want to accept the definitions as taught in schools.

It is not full circle. It is an out of control spiral. So I'm done.

So a core is a core is the best we get. Hooray. Don't worry. Oxygen is oxygen. Just breath it. Don't worry if it is O^2 or O^3.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Oxygen is oxygen. Just breath it. Don't worry if it is O^2 or O^3.

LOL Gee whiz.

Oxygen (O2 ) is oxygen. O3 on the other hand, is ozone.

A Chevy Silverado and a Ford F150 are both pickup trucks. See how that works?

 

[moproblems99]

Oxygen (O2 ) is oxygen. O3 on the other hand, is ozone.

Are you saying that O^3 is not comprised of Oxygen?

I mean just like a core is defined as a core, oxygen is oxygen .

It doesn't matter what goes into the bom. In this case it is still oxygen.

 

[notb]

OMG. I can't believe this is still going on.

There's no strict definition of a core. It's not an abstract mathematical entity.

It's a man-made object and it means there's only going to be an informal, cultural definition. In other words: a core is what we're used to call "a core".
And all these definitions evolve over time. And "core" will as well. So leave it. Get a hobby. Learn something useful.

It's 2019 and we still have huge problems with definitions of things like a bicycle, a planet or a fruit. And we'll likely have them in 2119 as well

 

[moproblems99]

In other words: a core is what we're used to call "a core".

What is that then?

 

[notb]

What is that then?

Problem with a core is that most of us really have no idea how a CPU works or looks inside - let alone how software uses it. So this is a difficult topic to comprehend.

Lets do something simpler. Do you think that you know what a bicycle is?
And as you learn how complex this is, you'll have more respect for "a core".

Other than that, I'm not sure why this discussion is already on the 4th page.
Yes, some people here love AMD and will defend them no matter what. We know this. It's cute.
Honestly, I expected that by 2nd page someone will pray for people not to take part in the class action lawsuit, because it hurts the company that gave us Zen etc.

Why not do something interesting instead?

Hey look. It's free!

Computer Architecture

Offered by Princeton, this advanced level course teaches you to design modern microprocessors. Explore CPU, memory, and I/O systems to build complex, efficient architectures. Perfect for advancing your skills in computer engineering and hardware design.

www.coursera.org

Imagine how much more interesting and rich would discussions on this forum be if everyone started from completing this course. You know: before they start talking about cores and that parallel computing FTW!!!!

 

[moproblems99]

Problem with a core is that most of us really have no idea how a CPU works or looks inside - let alone how software uses it. So this is a difficult topic to comprehend.

I would wager that it is everyone here or someone would have laid down what a core was. But no one has because likely no one knows or there isn't a set standard which makes this lawsuit stupid.

No one should deny that bulldozer family of processors largely sucked. Sure they had their fringe cases of usefulness but overall they sucked. But a lawsuit for all the butthurt people that can't read or wait for reviews? Come on meow... that's foolish speak.

Basically any marketing on any product is lies so basically any or every product could be held to this lawsuit.

Just some examples:. Intel: we take your privacy seriously. Nvidia:. 4gb. Amd:. Bulldozer family didn't suck.

 

[CountMike]

FX never "sucked", not for their price anyway. My FX 3650 BE served me good for years, done tons of CAD work although OC-ed to 5GHz. Windows, Linux and all programs said it was 6 core, that was enough for me. We both retired at same time. Who cares for semantics.

 

[notb]

I would wager that it is everyone here or someone would have laid down what a core was. But no one has because likely no one knows or there isn't a set standard which makes this lawsuit stupid.

There is no strict definition. Seriously. I just told you to think about bicycles and you ignored it totally.
We don't have a strict definition of anything. It's all relative, cultural or with a measurement error.

And no, the lawsuit is not stupid. The judgement was that AMD created a product and called it using a term that was used for a slightly different product. Because people who buy "N cores" were expecting something based on their knowledge and experience. And AMD delivered less.
And it's totally fine because, as I keep repeating, there's no formal definition of what a core is.

But a lawsuit for all the butthurt people that can't read or wait for reviews? Come on meow... that's foolish speak.

Putting aside this actual case, do you really expect all CPU buyers to read reviews? Really...?

Basically any marketing on any product is lies so basically any or every product could be held to this lawsuit.

That's why every properly functioning large company hires an army of lawyers who check every document that the company publishes (from manuals and advertisements to board members' tweets).

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

a core is the CPU, Central Processing Unit !




Really thats what this lawsuit is about, counting the number of CPUs under the IHS.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

FX never "sucked", not for their price anyway. My FX 3650 BE served me good for years, done tons of CAD work although OC-ed to 5GHz. Windows, Linux and all programs said it was 6 core, that was enough for me. We both retired at same time. Who cares for semantics.

FX was a fun processor! You could still overclock the reference clocks, HT, NB all separately. Really the last of it's breed in platform overclocking.
Had some nice long pipelines for Maximum overclocking speeds I reached well into the 7ghz range with quite a few FX chips, some of them even naked!
Gamed through the years on FX. Housed a few nice GPUs too. Titan, HOF, GTX 580s, GTX 760 then 770. All did just fine, just lower frame rates than using an core i5 or i7 of the same time. (really the only bummer)
But other than having a lower frame rate in gaming, I never understood all the bashing. 100$ 8 core processors? Saw nothing wrong with that at all. Purchased Many FX chips vs buying ONE i7.......

FX-4350 quad at 6200Mhz on Dry Ice. Have several runs like this. http://valid.x86.fr/wwaxen

 

[eidairaman1]

I got a post card in the mail, I thought "Gee, what a waste of wood pulp, glue, and ink"

I don't live in commiefornia, plus 35 measly bucks is pointless when I dont have the invoice of where I bought my parts from. The rig is over 5 years old now. I got what I paid for and its fine for my needs.

 

[moproblems99]

There is no strict definition. Seriously. I just told you to think about bicycles and you ignored it totally.
We don't have a strict definition of anything. It's all relative, cultural or with a measurement error.

And no, the lawsuit is not stupid. The judgement was that AMD created a product and called it using a term that was used for a slightly different product. Because people who buy "N cores" were expecting something based on their knowledge and experience. And AMD delivered less.
And it's totally fine because, as I keep repeating, there's no formal definition of what a core is.

Putting aside this actual case, do you really expect all CPU buyers to read reviews? Really...?

That's why every properly functioning large company hires an army of lawyers who check every document that the company publishes (from manuals and advertisements to board members' tweets).

Right, so a lawsuit about something with no strict definition claims it was defined as something it is not...that has merit...right.

 

[eidairaman1]

FX was a fun processor! You could still overclock the reference clocks, HT, NB all separately. Really the last of it's breed in platform overclocking.
Had some nice long pipelines for Maximum overclocking speeds I reached well into the 7ghz range with quite a few FX chips, some of them even naked!
Gamed through the years on FX. Housed a few nice GPUs too. Titan, HOF, GTX 580s, GTX 760 then 770. All did just fine, just lower frame rates than using an core i5 or i7 of the same time. (really the only bummer)
But other than having a lower frame rate in gaming, I never understood all the bashing. 100$ 8 core processors? Saw nothing wrong with that at all. Purchased Many FX chips vs buying ONE i7.......

FX-4350 quad at 6200Mhz on Dry Ice. Have several runs like this. http://valid.x86.fr/wwaxen

Id like to revisit mine under a peltier

 

[moproblems99]

Putting aside this actual case, do you really expect all CPU buyers to read reviews? Really...?

And yes, I expect everyone to read about what they are buying regardless of what it is. Or else don't complain you bought something stupid.

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Id like to revisit mine under a peltier

Not easy but doable. Gotta cut cores to lower TDP though.
Tec cooling direct, not a water chiller.
Man, that was a long time ago now lol..

 

[eidairaman1]

Not easy but doable. Gotta cut cores to lower TDP though.
Tec cooling direct, not a water chiller.
Man, that was a long time ago now lol..
View attachment 135699

Im saying all core here bro

 

[Deleted member 185158]

Im saying all core here bro

I can't recall how far I got on all cores. (x8) It was only around 1v. Don't think I could keep frozen past 2.6ghz or something there abouts. (my main goal was to stay sub zero) You could maybe pull off 3ghz maybe with sub ambient temps. You wouldn't want to go much warmer with a direct TEC though.
TEC is not by any means an easy adventure for cooling solution of any kind in any way. All I know, is you want a pretty decent sized cold plate. Maybe 3 times the mass of the IHS plate.

For cheap kicks, a bucket of ICE water and 15$ pond pump does very well. You'd be into the 5.6ghz+ range all cores.
DryIce is pretty cheap. Ask Bones how to build a Dice pot, he's pretty successful at it with low cost solutions.

 

[R-T-B]

But, its still called an engine. is it still a core?

No, it's a partial core, just as that is a partial engine.

But that's your definition. There is nothing that says the FPU must be discrete or integrated on the same die with the CPU.

There is a court ruling that is the subject of this thread, man. BTW, I never said anything about discrete vs ondie.

Since you have decide the FPU is a core too

Never said that. That's like saying a driveshaft is an engine.

I said it's one of the essential pieces of a complete core. There is a HUGE difference.

OMG. I can't believe this is still going on.

There's no strict definition of a core. It's not an abstract mathematical entity.

It's a man-made object and it means there's only going to be an informal, cultural definition. In other words: a core is what we're used to call "a core".
And all these definitions evolve over time. And "core" will as well. So leave it. Get a hobby. Learn something useful.

It's 2019 and we still have huge problems with definitions of things like a bicycle, a planet or a fruit. And we'll likely have them in 2119 as well

OMG, Thank you.

I would wager that it is everyone here or someone would have laid down what a core was. But no one has because likely no one knows or there isn't a set standard which makes this lawsuit stupid.

I have a basic grasp of the concepts. Sadly, that seems to put me way ahead of most of this thread's participants.

What is that then?

Whatever someone wants it to be, but generally it does math of some kind. Bottom line it's ambiguous as heck.

/thread