Bitcoin price suddenly surges to 3-year high

64K · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
It doesn't change anything.

It does though. Your assertion is that you don't have to use an exchange of some kind but in reality you do.

Let's use your hypothetical example. You sell a sack of turnips for 1/480th of a Bitcoin (what are the odds that this buyer has a wallet with exactly 1/480th of a bitcoin?). You buy a sack of apples for 1/360th of a Bitcoin. How do you make up the difference? Cash will have to be introduced at some point in the transaction. Therefore an exchange will be necessary.

My point is that an exchange will be necessary.

Papahyooie · Jun 10, 2021

64K said:
It does though. Your assertion is that you don't have to use an exchange of some kind but in reality you do.

Let's use your hypothetical example. You sell a sack of turnips for 1/480th of a Bitcoin (what are the odds that this buyer has a wallet with exactly 1/480th of a bitcoin?). You buy a sack of apples for 1/360th of a Bitcoin). How do you make up the difference? Cash will have to be introduced at some point in the transaction. Therefore an exchange will be necessary.

Negative. You just don't have an imagination.

Ted runs a service transferring crypto for a fee (in BTC, directly on the blockchain, not through an exchange). Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

Bob hands me the new wallet. I now have 1/480th of a bitcoin.

I hand that to Ted and say put this in my own wallet where I keep my crypto. Ted does so.

Reverse the process for Sally, and whatever her fee amount is for apples.

Ted never knows my name any more than the cashier at walmart does. I'm just a customer. I maintain my anonymity and complete lack of connection to the internet. It's up to Ted to handle his own anonymity on the internet.

R-T-B · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
Negative. You just don't have an imagination.

Ted runs a service transferring crypto for a fee (in BTC, directly on the blockchain, not through an exchange). Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

Bob hands me the new wallet. I now have 1/480th of a bitcoin.

I hand that to Ted and say put this in my own wallet where I keep my crypto. Ted does so.

Reverse the process for Sally, and whatever her fee amount is for apples.

Ted never knows my name any more than the cashier at walmart does. I'm just a customer. I maintain my anonymity and complete lack of connection to the internet. It's up to Ted to handle his own anonymity on the internet.

Ted is going to run afloul of KYC laws and will have to register as a money transmitter in the states, but would be true in many other countries.

Papahyooie · Jun 10, 2021

R-T-B said:
Ted is going to run afloul of KYC laws and will have to register as a money transmitter in the states, but would be true in many other countries.

I will refer back to my statement that BTC and crypto in general was developed SPECIFICALLY to be illegal, or at least alegal. So we're going to assume that Ted did not register with anything. But he could have done so, if he was so inclined.

Ted's anonymity is not the concern, nor is it necessary to prove Ted's anonymity in order to prove that truly anonymous transactions are possible, as I have shown above.

However, if the reader cares to extrapolate and do a little deductive reasoning, consider that Ted could possibly run his own VPN server on a virtual machine purchased outside his legal jurisdiction, perhaps in a non extradition country for added safety. Ted could be certain that the VPN software saves no logs and destroys what is in memory as soon as it is used. Ted could have used local currency, temporary gift cards bought with cash (or even crypto!), or a pseudonymized card service to pay for the virtual server. He could register for all of this under a pseudonym such as "Seymore Butts", or better yet multiple pseudonyms. Ted could use self-signed certs to be certain that his traffic is SSL encrypted and completely anonymous.

Consider also that myself, Bob, and Sally could just do all of this ourselves, and cut out Ted the middle man.

The more you understand about how this works, and adding in a little imagination and problem solving skills, the more fishy what happened with this ransomware attack seems. And the sillier the statement "if the government wants to find you, they will" seems as well.

64K · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
Negative. You just don't have an imagination.

Ted runs a service transferring crypto for a fee (in BTC, directly on the blockchain, not through an exchange). Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

Bob hands me the new wallet. I now have 1/480th of a bitcoin.

I hand that to Ted and say put this in my own wallet where I keep my crypto. Ted does so.

Reverse the process for Sally, and whatever her fee amount is for apples.

Ted never knows my name any more than the cashier at walmart does. I'm just a customer. I maintain my anonymity and complete lack of connection to the internet. It's up to Ted to handle his own anonymity on the internet.

I imagine it takes at least a little effort to make a new wallet so Bob paid maybe $20 to Ted to make the new wallet with 1/480th of a bitcoin. Bob would need to recover his loss of $20 by passing the fee along to you. The exchange is even more imbalanced now. You need 1/360th of a Bitcoin to buy the apples so you need 1/120th of a Bitcoin still for the sack of apples. So you ask Ted to make you a wallet with 1/360th of a Bitcoin and pay Ted $20 to make the wallet.

Seems to me that Ted is the real winner here. He made $40 in fees for this one simple transaction. So is it possible? Yes. Is it practical? No. Because you have wasted $40 in fees for nothing and Ted chuckles every time he sees you coming.

Papahyooie · Jun 10, 2021

64K said:
I imagine it takes at least a little effort to make a new wallet so Bob paid maybe $20 to Ted to make the new wallet with 1/480th of a bitcoin. Bob would need to recover his loss of $20 by passing the fee along to you. The exchange is even more imbalanced now. You need 1/360th of a Bitcoin to buy the apples so you need 1/120th of a Bitcoin still for the sack of apples. So you ask Ted to make you a wallet with 1/360th of a Bitcoin and pay Ted $20 to make the wallet.

Seems to me that Ted is the real winner here. He made $40 in fees for this one transactions. So is it possible? Yes. Is it practical? No. Because you have wasted $40 on a simple trasaction on fees for nothing and Ted chuckles every time he sees you coming.

It takes a single keypress (or even zero perhaps) if you created a software to do it. Ted did. So Ted charges 0.000001 BTC per transaction, because he does tens of millions of them per day and works on a volume principle. Perhaps this specific transaction might cost a little more, since Ted is providing a paper to electronic conversion. But how much would you charge to type in a number and hit enter? $20? You won't stay in business long.

Or do you still think the numbers are not agnostic here? Your argument is based on the assumption that the transaction costs too much, and that simply isn't reality, much less required.

R-T-B · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
I will refer back to my statement that BTC and crypto in general was developed SPECIFICALLY to be illegal

And I'm going to again question that statement.

It may have some attributes that got abused that way. But nothing Satoshi said or did made it seem like he supported that. Hell, he freaked out when the EFF started accepting bitcoin, calling them "radicals."

64K · Jun 10, 2021

Ted isn't a fool. He has to spend a little time talking to Bob and you. He's not going to do tens of millions of transaction a day and will need to have his time paid for.

R-T-B · Jun 10, 2021

64K said:
Ted isn't a fool. He has to spend a little time talking to Bob and you. He's not going to do tens of millions of transaction a day and will need to have his time paid for.

LocalBitcoins.com: Fastest and easiest way to buy and sell bitcoins - LocalBitcoins

Get bitcoins. Fast, easy and safe. Near you.

localbitcoins.com

This goes on a lot more and for far less than you would picture.

RandallFlagg · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
Negative. You just don't have an imagination.

Ted runs a service transferring crypto for a fee (in BTC, directly on the blockchain, not through an exchange). Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

Bob hands me the new wallet. I now have 1/480th of a bitcoin.

I hand that to Ted and say put this in my own wallet where I keep my crypto. Ted does so.

Reverse the process for Sally, and whatever her fee amount is for apples.

Ted never knows my name any more than the cashier at walmart does. I'm just a customer. I maintain my anonymity and complete lack of connection to the internet. It's up to Ted to handle his own anonymity on the internet.

Who is Ted that he gives away free Bitcoin on demand? That does not exist.

You request that on the internet, right, and how do you pay for that service? Even if Ted doesn't know you, you paid him, there's a transaction and it is linked to Ted. There's also a wallet. And if you ever intend to use that bitcoin at all, it can be tracked.

So with bitcoin you have to go to Jerry. Jerry gives you a bitcoin for a fee. The fee is transacted, there's a record of it, but Jerry doesn't know your name because he is a retard that lets anonymous people use credit cards on his site. Then Jerry gives you the wallet. For whatever reason, the feds want the owner(s) of that bitcoin. They go to Jerry, confiscate his server, threaten him and he coughs up any and all info needed. They figure out when the wallet was made, correlate it with bank transactions to Jerry's business, and track your ass down.

You've basically attempted to reduce Bitcoin to the same utility as cold hard cash, and still failed. Laundering cash would be far less risky than that load of garbage, because cash doesn't leave a trail. Bitcoin does.

For example. You have turnips for sale. I want turnips. I give you $5 for turnips. My $5 is stolen and they know the serial numbers, so when you go to the bank they take your $5. You don't know my name. Nobody knows who bought your turnips, and never will.

See how that works?

Papahyooie · Jun 10, 2021

R-T-B said:
And I'm going to again question that statement.

It may have some attributes that got abused that way. But nothing Satoshi said or did made it seem like he supported that. Hell, he freaked out when the EFF started accepting bitcoin, calling them "radicals."

Don't conflate "illegal" with "immoral."

I am not saying crypto was created to be "bad." I am saying it was made to be "illegal." That is a very important difference.

64K said:
Ted isn't a fool. He has to spend a little time talking to Bob and you. He's not going to do tens of millions of transaction a day and will need to have his time paid for.

No, because he has a webserver as well that accepts such transactions electronically from millions of other people. His paper to electronic service is a small part of his business. He charges a dollar per transaction, and he doesn't care one bit that you think he should charge $20.

RandallFlagg said:
Who is Ted that he gives away free Bitcoin on demand? That does not exist.

You request that on the internet, right, and how do you pay for that service? Even if Ted doesn't know you, you paid him, there's a transaction and it is linked to Ted. There's also a wallet. And if you ever intend to use that bitcoin at all, it can be tracked.

So with bitcoin you have to go to Jerry. Jerry gives you a bitcoin for a fee. The fee is transacted, there's a record of it, but Jerry doesn't know your name because he is a retard that lets anonymous people use credit cards on his site. Then Jerry gives you the wallet. For whatever reason, the feds want the owner(s) of that bitcoin. They go to Jerry, confiscate his server, threaten him and he coughs up any and all info needed. They figure out when the wallet was made, correlate it with bank transactions to Jerry's business, and track your ass down.

You've basically attempted to reduce Bitcoin to the same utility as cold hard cash, and still failed. Laundering cash would be far less risky than that load of garbage, because cash doesn't leave a trail. Bitcoin does.

For example. You have turnips for sale. I want turnips. I give you $5 for turnips. My $5 is stolen and they know the serial numbers, so when you go to the bank they take your $5. You don't know my name. Nobody knows who bought your turnips, and never will.

See how that works?

You didn't read my post, and missed a very key point. So try again.

R-T-B · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
Don't conflate "illegal" with "immoral

I wasn't but I'm pretty sure satoshi was a very strict lawabiding type based on his last posts.

All theory of course. How can it not be?

RandallFlagg said:
Who is Ted that he gives away free Bitcoin on demand

Who said anything about free?

RandallFlagg · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
You didn't read my post, and missed a very key point. So try again.

Do enlighten me. Who is Ted that he will put 1/480th of a bitcoin (about $73 USD) into a wallet and give it to me? How does he expect to get paid?

Papahyooie · Jun 10, 2021

R-T-B said:
I wasn't but I'm pretty sure satoshi was a very strict lawabiding type based on his last posts.

All theory of course. How can it not be?

Who said anything about free?

Ah well I suppose I misunderstood you then. I cannot believe that someone who created an extranational, and therefore by proxy "illegal" in the sense that it is not ordained and expressly permitted, currency would want it to be "legal". That simply doesn't make sense. I'm more of the opinion that "Satoshi" is multiple people personally.

RandallFlagg said:
Do enlighten me. Who is Ted that he will put 1/480th of a bitcoin (about $73 USD) into a wallet and give it to me? How does he expect to get paid?

Sigh... Here let me quote myself and zoom in a bit.

Ted runs a service transferring crypto for a fee (in BTC, directly on the blockchain, not through an exchange). Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet.

from his own wallet

... it was Bob's bitcoin/wallet. Ted did not give anybody BTC. How is this difficult?

RandallFlagg · Jun 10, 2021

Papahyooie said:
Ah well I suppose I misunderstood you then. I cannot believe that someone who created an extranational, and therefore by proxy "illegal" in the sense that it is not ordained and expressly permitted, currency would want it to be "legal". That simply doesn't make sense. I'm more of the opinion that "Satoshi" is multiple people personally.

Sigh... Here let me quote myself and zoom in a bit.

Ted runs a service transferring crypto for a fee (in BTC, directly on the blockchain, not through an exchange). Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

Bob tells Ted to put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet. Ted does so.

put 1/480th into a new wallet from his own wallet.

from his own wallet

... it was Bob's bitcoin. Ted did not give anybody BTC. How is this difficult?

You don't understand what blockchain is and how it works is what I get. What you are trying to do is describe 'laundering' bitcoin.

The exchange does not matter, for starters.

Ted got your BTC, no different than a credit card. The Blockchain holds a history of all transactions ever on a bitcoin. It must be verified by the blockchain network, if it isn't then it won't be valid. Not only the fractional bitcoin Ted gave you, but the BTC you paid him in. Both transactions are recorded everywhere.

Try again.

64K · Jun 10, 2021

Suppose Ted gets busted for running an operation without a license and has to turn his transaction records over to authorities and they find your wallet being used over and over?

Papahyooie · Jun 10, 2021

RandallFlagg said:
You don't understand what blockchain is and how it works is what I get. What you are trying to do is describe 'laundering' bitcoin.

The exchange does not matter, for starters.

Ted got your BTC, no different than a credit card. The Blockchain holds a history of all transactions ever on a bitcoin. It must be verified by the blockchain network, if it isn't then it won't be valid. Not only the fractional bitcoin Ted gave you, but the BTC you paid him in. Both transactions are recorded everywhere.

Try again.

You're off the rails bud. Ted is providing a service in lieu of me having to connect to the blockchain myself (since FAR earlier in this conversation, a requirement was applied that I never connect to the internet myself, to maintain anonymity). Laundering has nothing to do with this, and it still perfectly fine that it gets recorded on the blockchain. I'm not trying to be rude here, but you're apparently missing half the information you need. Go back and read the whole convo.

64K said:
Suppose Ted gets busted for running an operation without a license and has to turn his transaction records over to authorities and they find your wallet being used over and over?

Sucks for Ted? Doesn't matter to me though. Ted didn't keep "transaction records" beyond what's on the blockchain, and he has no idea who I am.

freeagent · Jun 10, 2021

trog100 said:
he he.. i would call it self confidence and the fact i aint wrong that often.. this may piss them off a little but they generally deserve it..

trog

Honestly man.. Its all good. I don't hate the player, just not liking the game.. :laugh:

I want a new GPU like everyone lol.. I pretty much gave up on 30 series now and await the monetary violation that will be the next series.. People have been conditioned into paying the high prices, Even when capacity is back I am not sure the lower prices will be. I am sure there will be all kinds of excuses why chips are still expensive. But that is just the pessimist in me.. hopefully I am wrong! :cool:

Hardcore Games · Jun 10, 2021

Bitcoin has been drifting lower over the last 6 months and I am not sure where it will level off

trog100 · Jun 11, 2021

Hardcore Games said:
Bitcoin has been drifting lower over the last 6 months and I am not sure where it will level off

come on dude at least make some attempt at getting things vaguely right.. over the last six months lets say this year.. bitcoin has gone from 20K to 64K and back down to near 30K and its now at 37K...

some pretty volatile moves for sure but not much drifting lower.. he he

another no coiner critic posting crypto negative nonsense with a pretty obvious agenda in mind..

we have lost a couple of them like metroid and lynx but a few are still hanging on in..

trog

R-T-B · Jun 11, 2021

trog100 said:
another no coiner critic posting crypto negative nonsense with a pretty obvious agenda in mind..

It may be true, but can we quit the labels? It only leads to tribalism.

Rithsom · Jun 11, 2021

trog100 said:
another no coiner critic posting crypto negative nonsense with a pretty obvious agenda in mind..

we have lost a couple of them like metroid and lynx but a few nother no coiner troll posting crypto negative nonsense with a pretty obvious agenda in mind..

Please stop with the needless bashing. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they have an agenda...

trog100 · Jun 11, 2021

R-T-B said:
It may be true, but can we quit the labels? It only leads to tribalism.

it is tribalism and it needs calling for what it is.. continuous trolling also needs calling for what it is..

Rithsom said:
Please stop with the needless bashing. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they have an agenda...

one thing i have not been guilty of is needless bashing.. he he..

trog

sepheronx · Jun 11, 2021

Rithsom said:
Please stop with the needless bashing. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they have an agenda...

some other members here were constantly telling others that they do not understand blockchain (more or less calling others stupid) and more or less insulting too. But no one jumped to that. We also had members here wishing ill upon miners and being outright rude too.

I see a bit of bias in your comment. Instead of aiming at Trog, aim at the others as well.

Rithsom · Jun 11, 2021

sepheronx said:
some other members here were constantly telling others that they do not understand blockchain and more or less insulting too. But no one jumped to that. We also had members here wishing ill upon miners and being outright rude too.

I see a bit of bias in your comment. Instead of aiming at Trog, aim at the others as well.

If crypto is such an amazing thing, then you "coiners" should set an example instead of calling everyone else trolls.

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Bitcoin price suddenly surges to 3-year high

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