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SanDisk Ultra 3D 4 TB 2.5" SSD

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I'm not sure if you are just misreading my comments?
A little of column A, a little of column B.

I do 100% agree with you. 100MB/s devices are unacceptable at SSD pricing and my rant is that SSD drives that slow even exist.
My own anecdote was that spinning rust actually provides far more performance than the miserably embarrassing QVO.

The thing I can't agree with is purchasing slow storage (SSD or spinning rust) when good alternatives exist. Spinning rust should be purchased for capacity reasons, not an endurance reasons; Outside of Chia mining, it's super-duper hard to wear out a consumer TLC SSD, and my negative opinions on QLC should be well known by now ;)
 

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My own anecdote was that spinning rust actually provides far more performance than the miserably embarrassing QVO.
This simply isn't true. I'd take a QVO over a HDD any day of the week. There is almost no real world use where the HDD will be faster. The one and only time the QVO becomes slower than an HDD is when you are writing more than 40GB all at once from a source that is faster than 500MB/s. How often does anyone do that? Maybe when you are initially installing the drive and copying everything over from your old drive, but after that, it's never going to happen again. You act like the drive always performs at 100MB/s, it doesn't. It performs at 100MB/s in a very rare situation. In every other situation it is miles faster than an HDD.

I'm not saying I recommend the QVO against other SSDs, but don't act like it is as bad as a HDD or even more ridiculously claim it is worse than a HDD.
 

bug

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I've said this countless times. People way overestimate how much they write to their drives.
The problem is people aren't the only ones writing on that drive. The OS has lots of services that also write to disk. Apps do the same (remember the debacle back when Firefox would write everything you did on the disk, just to be able to diagnose and restore your session?). Sure, they're not designed to kill your SSD, but the thing is, you don't really control how much they write and you don't know when some bug causes them to write more than they should.

I mean, sure, I've been doing this long enough to realize SSDs these days last longer than those HDDs which posed very few concerns wrt their lifetime. Yet somehow I can't rest easy when I read about a shiny new SSD with a few hundred p/e cycles.
 
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This simply isn't true. I'd take a QVO over a HDD any day of the week. There is almost no real world use where the HDD will be faster. The one and only time the QVO becomes slower than an HDD is when you are writing more than 40GB all at once from a source that is faster than 500MB/s. How often does anyone do that? Maybe when you are initially installing the drive and copying everything over from your old drive, but after that, it's never going to happen again. You act like the drive always performs at 100MB/s, it doesn't. It performs at 100MB/s in a very rare situation. In every other situation it is miles faster than an HDD.

I'm not saying I recommend the QVO against other SSDs, but don't act like it is as bad as a HDD or even more ridiculously claim it is worse than a HDD.
If you need capacity you are likely working with large media files or multi-gigabyte single datasets. These are most likely coming from RAM or NVMe pagefile, or being read/written all from one drive.

If you want a casual user OS and general purpose drive, the 1TB QVO is acceptably quick for bursts of 20GB or less. It's far from the best drive and it's pretty low performance/$ but it won't be an absolute disaster. In this situation I'd definitely pick the miserable QVO over spinning rust.

That's not what this discussion is about though, not even close. It's about streaming very large sequential data to an SSD in the sort of instance where you might buy this Sandisk or spinning rust as secondary storage. 4TB SATA is a terrible choice for primary storage that your OS and applications are using. Someone who can afford 4TB of NAND isn't likely to be using spinning rust for the OS/Application drive. Please use a little common sense and read the context of the discussion.
 

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The problem is people aren't the only ones writing on that drive. The OS has lots of services that also write to disk. Apps do the same (remember the debacle back when Firefox would write everything you did on the disk, just to be able to diagnose and restore your session?). Sure, they're not designed to kill your SSD, but the thing is, you don't really control how much they write and you don't know when some bug causes them to write more than they should.

I mean, sure, I've been doing this long enough to realize SSDs these days last longer than those HDDs which posed very few concerns wrt their lifetime. Yet somehow I can't rest easy when I read about a shiny new SSD with a few hundred p/e cycles.
When I say people overestimate how much they write to their SSDs, I mean including the OS. OS SSDs don't write nearly as much data as people think. I have a Crucial MX300 that has been my OS drive in my work computer that I use constantly m-f for 4 years now and it only had 25TB written to it. Drives just aren't getting written to nearly as much as people think. The fact is the controller is more likely to die long before the NAND does in a normal use case.

If you need capacity you are likely working with large media files or multi-gigabyte single datasets. These are most likely coming from RAM or NVMe pagefile, or being read/written all from one drive.

Not really, and even if they are multiple-gigabyte the QVO is still faster than an HDD. Lets just say you have a 100GB file for some reason. The QVO is still going to write that file a good 2.5 minutes faster than an HDD(assuming an average write speed of 110MB/s on the HDD). And that, like I said, is a rare scenario. Even if you are say writing a blu-ray rip to the drive, you aren't going to break out of the SLC Cache. There really an actual real world scenario where you'd exhaust the SLC Cache, even if you are dealing with large media files. And if you are, then the QVO should be the final storage place for the processed video, not the storage location of the RAW video. But, like I said, I wouldn't recommend the QVO compared to other SSDs, but it is definitely still faster than a HDD. And not a QLC drives are like the QVO either, so lumping all QLC drives in with the QVO isn't fair. The Intel QLC drives, Crucials P1, and Sabrent Rocket Q all outperform even some TLC drives in average write speed despite being QLC.

If you want a casual user OS and general purpose drive, the 1TB QVO is acceptably quick for bursts of 20GB or less. It's far from the best drive and it's pretty low performance/$ but it won't be an absolute disaster. In this situation I'd definitely pick the miserable QVO over spinning rust.
Try 40GB. And I thought the QVO was slower than a HDD, why would you ever pick it over an HDD?

That's not what this discussion is about though, not even close. It's about streaming very large sequential data to an SSD in the sort of instance where you might buy this Sandisk or spinning rust as secondary storage. 4TB SATA is a terrible choice for primary storage that your OS and applications are using. Someone who can afford 4TB of NAND isn't likely to be using spinning rust for the OS/Application drive. Please use a little common sense and read the context of the discussion.
I am reading the context, even in the context of this thread the QVO is still faster. It's faster even if you are writing 100GB of data at once, which even for a storage drive is pretty rare.

Your exact claim was that HDDs provide "far" more performance than a QVO. I'd like you to back that up. Show me some numbers that back up the "far" part. Because even writing very large amounts of data the difference definitely doesn't amount to being "far".
 
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I have a 4TB QVO bought during prime day sales and it was painful to transfer the 1TB from the HDD but otherwise I still prefer it to the HDD - silent, doesn't need cooling and in normal use (like not "initializing") it's still faster than the HDD because it doesn't have to spin up and doesn't irritate me with the noise of said spinning up.

Also for everyone talking about how the QVO is slower than an HDD, yeah in sequencial writes it sure is once you run out of SLC but random write? Not even close, even after running out of SLC.

Seing the ultra 3d/blue 3d going lower in price tends to give me second thoughts more than anything because when I eventually add another 4TB I'll be limited by the QVO but I still don't mind it that much because it's bulk storage anyway. Samsung could have done better with the QVO but the price/gb is hard to beat on ssd land and if you have the right use case it's pretty good.
 
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I wonder who really needs 4TB of internal storage space these days. How much of an 'on-board' file-hoarder can one be? The ones that really do must be no more than 0.05% of the users or less out there? Marketing as usual at its best.
 

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I wonder who really needs 4TB of internal storage space these days. How much of an 'on-board' file-hoarder can one be? The ones that really do must be no more than 0.05% of the users or less out there? Marketing as usual at its best.
My steam library alone is 4TB.:laugh:
 
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I wonder who really needs 4TB of internal storage space these days. How much of an 'on-board' file-hoarder can one be? The ones that really do must be no more than 0.05% of the users or less out there? Marketing as usual at its best.
I have a feeling that this will appeal to people with big game libraries or anyone working with 4K raw video.

I'm sure there are other use cases but I have 3TB of games installed and at work am constantly clearing out a 1TB drive to deal with 1080p120 footage which takes up only half the space of 4K60 footage. If I had a 4TB drive I wouldn't need to finish one project and archive it off to a NAS before starting another one.

Just thought of another use - pointcloud surveys of sites (something at least someone in the organisation uses daily) can range from 40GB to 800GB for a single model. They are pretty much unusable over gigabit ethernet, it sure would be nice to have something faster than spinning rust to load and edit those on...
 
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I wonder who really needs 4TB of internal storage space these days. How much of an 'on-board' file-hoarder can one be? The ones that really do must be no more than 0.05% of the users or less out there? Marketing as usual at its best.

For me it's a matter of not having a NAS yet (and it won't happen any time soon), imo it's hard to justify getting a NAS for so little storage but relying only on externals is not a great solution either

I have a feeling that this will appeal to people with big game libraries or anyone working with 4K raw video.

I'm sure there are other use cases but I have 3TB of games installed and at work am constantly clearing out a 1TB drive to deal with 1080p120 footage which takes up only half the space of 4K60 footage. If I had a 4TB drive I wouldn't need to finish one project and archive it off to a NAS before starting another one.

Just thought of another use - pointcloud surveys of sites (something at least someone in the organisation uses daily) can range from 40GB to 800GB for a single model. They are pretty much unusable over gigabit ethernet, it sure would be nice to have something faster than spinning rust to load and edit those on...

In my previous job I had 1TB that was constantly getting full from build images that I needed to get from the build servers, I could delete some but it was very tedious to manage because sometimes I would end up having to re-download something that was also very painfull with the vpn bottleneck
 

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I wonder who really needs 4TB of internal storage space these days. How much of an 'on-board' file-hoarder can one be? The ones that really do must be no more than 0.05% of the users or less out there? Marketing as usual at its best.
I have a feeling everyone that doesn't automatically sends their stuff to the cloud qualifies ;)
 
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Your exact claim was that HDDs provide "far" more performance than a QVO. I'd like you to back that up. Show me some numbers that back up the "far" part. Because even writing very large amounts of data the difference definitely doesn't amount to being "far".
You are quoting 110MB/s for spinning rust which is just bullshit. 1TB 5400rpm drives from 15 years ago were that speed.

We're talking about a $500 SSD in 2021, so the logical comparison is a high-capacity SATA drive like the Seagate Ironwolf that sits in the price/performance sweet spot. Sure, you can get faster hard drives but the unexciting Ironwolves I have (from 2018, not 2021) will write sequentially at ~240MB/s for terabytes at a time. Even the last 20% of their capacity when they're writing on the slow inner tracks is still faster than a QVO's native QLC write speed.
 

bug

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You are quoting 110MB/s for spinning rust which is just bullshit. 1TB 5400rpm drives from 15 years ago were that speed.

We're talking about a $500 SSD in 2021, so the logical comparison is a high-capacity SATA drive like the Seagate Ironwolf that sits in the price/performance sweet spot. Sure, you can get faster hard drives but the unexciting Ironwolves I have (from 2018, not 2021) will write sequentially at ~240MB/s for terabytes at a time. Even the last 20% of their capacity when they're writing on the slow inner tracks is still faster than a QVO's native QLC write speed.
That's certainly true, but writing that much data is far more uncommon than random 4k reads. And QVO still blows any HDD out of the water in that regard.

But once again: we went from SSDs running circles around HDDs to QVOs that HDDs can actually beat if only in some metric that's not very relevant for home users. That's both disappointing and undeniable.
 
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All this talks about SSDs and endurance actually piqued my curiousity, so I went and did a printout of the two SSDs I currently have in my system (they're both pretty old, a 3 year old Samsung 970 Evo 1TB and a ~6 year old Crucial MX100 512GB), and the results are quite interesting.

The 970 Evo has done just shy of 90TB written since the start. Given that this drive has a 600TB endurance rating, I'm good for another decade and a bit if I continue the current usage pattern, not bad!

The 512GB Crucial MX100 has accummulated quite a bit more, just over 143TB written

It's interesting that this MX100 drive is actually technically only rated for 72TB write endurance, but I've written almost double that, and the drive still reports 84% NAND life available. This seems like Crucial was very very conservative in the NAND rating for this drive.

I should also preface that I do use Shadowplay to record some of my video games at high bitrate, which probably results in the relatively high usage. A more typical user who's just playing games (i.e. a large game install once in a while instead of constantly being used as a scratch drive for game footage) would probably see a lot lower TBW than these numbers.
 

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You are quoting 110MB/s for spinning rust which is just bullshit. 1TB 5400rpm drives from 15 years ago were that speed.

We're talking about a $500 SSD in 2021, so the logical comparison is a high-capacity SATA drive like the Seagate Ironwolf that sits in the price/performance sweet spot. Sure, you can get faster hard drives but the unexciting Ironwolves I have (from 2018, not 2021) will write sequentially at ~240MB/s for terabytes at a time. Even the last 20% of their capacity when they're writing on the slow inner tracks is still faster than a QVO's native QLC write speed.
Yeah, there might be a few drives out there that can do 240MB/s sustained writes. But there are far more that are still 5400RPM garbage. And don't even get started on SMR bullshit which is just as bad as the SLC cache issue. But even still, the HDD only becomes faster over extremely large writes. Which like everyone has been telling you, doesn't happen, and when they do it isn't likely time sensitive. You say the HDD can transfer at a constant 240MB/s for TB at a time, but how often are you transferring TB of data to the hard drive. Even raw video isn't TB of data, an entire blu-ray worth of video is only 50GB, and transferring that to the QVO would still be faster than a HDD that can do 240MB/s.

And sure, you can say "well what if you have a 4K camera and your dumping the raw footage to the drive". Ok, lets ignore the fact that if you actually have the money for a 4K camera that uses high enough bitrates to create huge raw video files then you also have the cash for better storage than a QVO as your ingest drive for raw footage. So you dump that raw footage to a HDD. Yeah, its faster than the QVO if the footage amounts to over 50GB or so. Then what? The drive is too slow to actually work with the footage in an efficient manner. You won't be able to scrub though it in any editor without it being just a horrible stutter mess. And forget about scrubbing though it is you have layers that start to cause random access to the drive. Or even if the one piece of footage is fragmented on the drive. So, what, you dump that footage to the HDD only to have to move it somewhere else to actually do anything with it? I mean, yay the ingest was a little quicker, but does that really help any?

Lets not consider that the QVO is faster in every single other situation and just focus on the one situation that almost never happens thouhgh.

The fact is the QVO is still overall significantly faster than any HDD on the market.
 
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You are quoting 110MB/s for spinning rust which is just bullshit. 1TB 5400rpm drives from 15 years ago were that speed.

We're talking about a $500 SSD in 2021, so the logical comparison is a high-capacity SATA drive like the Seagate Ironwolf that sits in the price/performance sweet spot. Sure, you can get faster hard drives but the unexciting Ironwolves I have (from 2018, not 2021) will write sequentially at ~240MB/s for terabytes at a time. Even the last 20% of their capacity when they're writing on the slow inner tracks is still faster than a QVO's native QLC write speed.

240MB/s writes? Are we still beating around the sequential write scenario!?

Sure, if your life is all about writting more than 100gb of data sequetially go ahead and skip the QVO, you'd probably wear out the nand anyway. In every other scenario the QVO will be better.

Now is it the best SSD, absolutely not, it fills a small niche who want to start moving away from spinning rust. On the "regular user" lower capacity drives (like 512gb or 1tb) I wouldn't save the 5 or 10 bucks against a tlc from a competitor (much less pay more because samsung), now high capacity drive like 4tb or even 8tb (where they are basically the only ones) the savings start to make a lot of sense.
 
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240MB/s writes? Are we still beating around the sequential write scenario!?
I think we are, yes.

Nobody spending $390 on a SATA SSD is using it as primary storage, so it won't (shouldn't) be used for high IOPS random workloads like applications and OS use. If they have $390 and don't already have a decent OS/Application drive then they're doing it wrong.

High capacity secondary storage is usually for large sequential data. If your particular secondary storage requirements need IOPS then you already know that mechanical drives are a terrible choice.
 
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I think we are, yes.

Nobody spending $390 on a SATA SSD is using it as primary storage, so it won't (shouldn't) be used for high IOPS random workloads like applications and OS use. If they have $390 and don't already have a decent OS/Application drive then they're doing it wrong.

High capacity secondary storage is usually for large sequential data. If your particular secondary storage requirements need IOPS then you already know that mechanical drives are a terrible choice.

I think we're confusing applications, one thing is professional secondary storage (like a large NAS or other storage infrastructure) and consumer/enthusiast secondary storage (couple dozen TBs internal or small external network/nas). The QVO is not a professional product, neither is the sandisk ultra 3d for that matter.

To each his own, my archive storage is small enough where I can afford to transition to ssd so that's what i'll do, the qvo offers more than an hdd would without being too expensive.
 

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I think we are, yes.

Nobody spending $390 on a SATA SSD is using it as primary storage, so it won't (shouldn't) be used for high IOPS random workloads like applications and OS use. If they have $390 and don't already have a decent OS/Application drive then they're doing it wrong.

High capacity secondary storage is usually for large sequential data. If your particular secondary storage requirements need IOPS then you already know that mechanical drives are a terrible choice.
So lets address some things here. If we are talking about 4TB drives, lets use the performance of the 4TB QVO, not the 1TB. I'm sure you realize that the 1TB is actually significantly slower than the 4TB. You did realize that, right? The 1TB QVO only has a single QLC chip in it. The 2TB, 4TB, and 8TB all have 2(or more) QLC chips(or 4 chips in the case of the 8TB but the controller is only a 2 channel controller so the chips are doubled up on a channel and don't increase performance). Their write performance after the SLC cache is used up is literally double the 1TB QVO drive tested here at TPU. On top of that their SLC cache sizes are also doubled to 80GB. The result is sequential write speeds after 80GB dropping to about 180MB/s. Even if you have a HDD that can write constantly at 240MB/s, 180MB/s isn't far off and when you consider in the 80GB of SLC cache writing at 500MB/s even large writes to the drive will be pretty close in time. A 200GB transfer, for instance, would be faster on the QVO than the HDD.

Now, lets talk uses for a drive like this. You say no one is using them for high IOP workloads but I beg to differ. People are installing and running applications on them. A drive like the QVO could be used as a secondary drive in a laptop or a desktop. No one is saying use a 4TB QVO as a primary drive. But a lot of people don't use their secondary drives just for holding data files anymore. They install games to them. Remember, games are applications. A lot of people are putting small 500GB M.2 drives in for their system drives and you fill one of those up pretty quickly with modern games that can exceed 150GB in size just for one game. The QVO would work significantly better than a HDD in this situation.

Even in the use cases where secondary storage is being used for sequential data. What kind of sequential data are you talking about for home users? Are they really regularly writing more than 200GB of data to their secondary storage drives? Are they doing anything on the secondary drive that requires SSD speeds at all? People using the drives for this purpose are likely wasting money buying ANY SSD at that point.

But what I'm really interested in is you giving us an actual real world use case for a large 4TB+ drive where a 4TB+ HDD would perform far better than a 4TB+ QVO SSD. I'm not talking about a situation where financially the HDD would be the better choice, no one is saying that doesn't exist. I'm saying a real world use case where the actual drive performance of an HDD is far better.
 
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GabrielLP14

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So lets address some things here. If we are talking about 4TB drives, lets use the performance of the 4TB QVO, not the 1TB. I'm sure you realize that the 1TB is actually significantly slower than the 4TB. You did realize that, right? The 1TB QVO only has a single QLC chip in it. The 2TB, 4TB, and 8TB all have 2 QLC chips(or 4 chips in the case of the 8TB but the controller is only a 2 channel controller so the chips are doubled up on a channel and don't increase performance). Their write performance after the SLC cache is used up is literally double the 1TB QVO drive tested here at TPU. On top of that their SLC cache sizes are also doubled to 80GB. The result is sequential write speeds after 80GB dropping to about 180MB/s. Even if you have a HDD that can write constantly at 240MB/s, 180MB/s isn't far off and when you consider in the 80GB of SLC cache writing at 500MB/s even large writes to the drive will be pretty close in time. A 200GB transfer, for instance, would be faster on the QVO than the HDD.
Incorrect the Samsung Controller is still an 8-channel controller, although it could be running as a 2-channel according to some factors, but it support for up to 8 commands chips enable per channel in order to interleave Dies / LUN per each channel, and the first SSDs revisions all had 1024Gb dies so in theory each TB of SSD should have 1 NAND Package, but Samsung might have changed that. But i' didn't see any 16DP Packages for QLC yet from Samsung, so it's probably Still 8DP, beaning each Chip is 1TB at the most, so 2 chips for 8TB? naaahh
 

newtekie1

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Incorrect the Samsung Controller is still an 8-channel controller, although it could be running as a 2-channel according to some factors, but it support for up to 8 commands chips enable per channel in order to interleave Dies / LUN per each channel, and the first SSDs revisions all had 1024Gb dies so in theory each TB of SSD should have 1 NAND Package, but Samsung might have changed that. But i' didn't see any 16DP Packages for QLC yet from Samsung, so it's probably Still 8DP, beaning each Chip is 1TB at the most, so 2 chips for 8TB? naaahh
Did you just skip over the part where I said the 8TB version uses more than 2 chips? And we know the controller is still working as 2 channels because the 8TB drive isn't any faster than the 2TB. Though you are right, the 2TB version uses 2 chips, the 4TB uses 4 chips and the 8TB version uses 8 chips. But all the drives except the 1TB are running with just 2 channels on the controller, and that's really the important point I was making. The 1TB version uses 1 chip and runs with just 1 channel which results in half the performance.
 
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I wonder who really needs 4TB of internal storage space these days. How much of an 'on-board' file-hoarder can one be? The ones that really do must be no more than 0.05% of the users or less out there? Marketing as usual at its best.
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newtekie1

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Don't forget virtual machines.
 
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Nice, the SATA-Sandisk beats some M.2 NVME-SSDs at whole disk fill :)

And some cheaper M.2 NVME-SSDs like Kingston NV1, Intel 660p/670p, Crucial P2 are not in the list.
 
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You forgot the obvious one.....

i.e.....the massive pron collections that SOME people have stored on multiple disks/rigs, hehehe :D
 
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