Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[Shrek]

That is my whole point; E85 has high octane so could run at a higher compression ratio.

But yes, I agree, your car is equally efficient on both fuels and that is where the Toyota version of the Atkinson engine could change things.

We are not using E85 as it should be used.

 

[dragontamer5788]

But yes, I agree, your car is equally efficient on both fuels and that is where the Toyota version of the Atkinson engine could change things.

The "Better engine" has already been made.

1. Narrow the RPM design of the engine to 2000 RPM or something. (Doesn't matter what specifically, the important thing is to choose a singular RPM instead of trying to optimize over 1000 RPM to 6000 RPM).

2. Design a generator that has a predictable amount of torque to turn.

3. The generator makes electricity, and stores that into a small battery pack.

4. Electric motors use electricity, and dynamically adjust to the car's driving behavior better. (Going up hill, down hill, or even using regenerative braking to turn momentum back into stored energy in the batteries).

-----

Step #1 and #2 can of course be replaced by Fuel Cells (Hydrogen Fuel technology), or Li-ion batteries (EV car technology). And that's really it for the debate. Step #3 and #4 are done and settled, this electric motor + regenerative braking thing is clearly the most efficient strategy moving forward on our current levels of technology.

 

[Shrek]

CVT, one can now run over a narrow RPM range; avoids all the electrical losses

But that is separate from the E85 octane issue

 

[Operandi]

CVT, one can now run over a narrow RPM range; avoids all the electrical losses

But that is separate from the E85 octane issue

Car people hate CVTs, because they annoying AF when doing designed what for they are intended for; keeping the engine in the sweet spot RPM band. That and they still have a fair bit of drivetrain loss compared to a a clutch and manual gear box if I'm not mistaken. Not all that great of innovation in my opinion...

 

[Shrek]

I seem to recall (correct me if I am wrong) that a computer controlled CVT is now more economical than stick-shift

 

[dragontamer5788]

I seem to recall (correct me if I am wrong) that a computer controlled CVT is now more economical than stick-shift

They certainly market it to be.

But "no gear box" is even more efficient, which is the promise of PHEV Gasoline / Fuel Cell Hydrogen / Electric Battery -> Electric Motors.

No gearbox means no weight, no transmission losses at all, no nothing. Its simply non-existent. I should note that the Porsche Taycan has a gearbox, but I think that's more of a high-performance trick rather than an efficiency trick.

 

[Aquinus]

That's basically my car. I lose damn near 30% of fuel economy on E85 compared to E15. This suggests to me that my engine burns Ethanol about as "efficiently" as it burns gasoline (especially when you consider that E85 is only 85% ethanol, and that E15 fuel is 15% ethanol).

E85 doesn't have as high of an energy content as E10 or E15, it's something like 72% of the gasoline equivalent. The nice bit about E85 though is its resistance to knock. You could run an engine with E85 at much higher CRs than an E10/15 can, but if you put it into a car that can run E10/15, you're going to hit what you just described.

Impreza is a compact Sedan though. It seats 5 but your rear passengers will feel bunched up.

Honda Clarity is +4 inches wider and +20 inches longer. Cars of this size normally cost in the $22,000ish range. So $25,000ish for PHEV (After the $7500 credit is factored in) is a bit of a premium, but the gasoline savings will almost certainly win over in the long run.

That's why I liked Honda Clarity PHEV and GM Volt PHEVs. They actually were cost-effective at their jobs.

To be completely honest, I wanted a manual transmission and my options in the US for inexpensive new cars that have AWD, a standard transmission, and a hatchback, leaves you with... well, one option. Not to say that it's not a good car, it is, but for what I wanted it was about all I could get. You don't really want to have 3 people in back, it's not meant for that. I was mainly using it as a commuter vehicle as I was the only person in it most of the time.

Car people hate CVTs, because they annoying AF when doing designed what for they are intended for; keeping the engine in the sweet spot RPM band. That and they still have a fair bit of drivetrain loss compared to a a clutch and manual gear box if I'm not mistaken. Not all that great of innovation in my opinion...

The CVT variant of my Impreza actually gets better gas mileage than my 5MT, far better with the DI variant of the FB20. They're actually very efficient as there are bigger Subarus with a CVT that have better gas mileage than my vehicle, despite weighing more and having bigger engines (2.5 vs. 2.0). Now, I didn't buy a CVT for one main reason, I wanted a standard because I enjoy it.

 

[KLiKzg]

You better stick with complaining about me not using a capital letter because your understanding of the thermodynamic cycle in an ICE is fundamentally flawed.
View attachment 227433
http://web.mit.edu/2.61/www/Lecture notes/Lec. 03 Engine cycle analysis.pdf

There is a lot of irony with you saying this when your own facts are wrong. Toyota's engines let less air into the engine by manipulating the intake valve timing, that effectively reduces the compression ratio but keeps the expansion ratio the same. The reason they need to do this is because you'd have knock or non-ideal ignition timing to compensate for it (if possible given the max temp of the charge in the cylinder.) Toyota is trading max power for efficiency by doing this and the end result is an expansion ratio that's larger than the effective compression ratio. This lets the engine extract more work from combustion for the amount of fuel burnt. Take your own advice, bub.

I do hope you are good as a Software Engineer, 'cause you would fail in thermodynamics & be a lousy Mechanical Engineer.
Suggestion: do not sign for extra online classes...it is not worth it for you.

But I am stopping this "off topic", before it gets toxic here.

How is Mazda's an Atkinson engine?

Mazda with Skyactive X tries to imitate the diesel-operation in gasoline engine...the result, as it can not achieve the true Diesel cycle is an Atkinson cycle.

But do not listen to me, here are also some experts talking (check the conclusion in the end): https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339942/mazdas-gasoline-skyactiv-x-spcci-engine-explained/

 

[dragontamer5788]

To be completely honest, I wanted a manual transmission and my options in the US for inexpensive new cars that have AWD, a standard transmission, and a hatchback, leaves you with... well, one option. Not to say that it's not a good car, it is, but for what I wanted it was about all I could get. You don't really want to have 3 people in back, it's not meant for that. I was mainly using it as a commuter vehicle as I was the only person in it most of the time.

I actually had the same list of requirements, except I didn't care about AWD.

I was between Ford Focus, Mazda 3, and Impreza. I went with the standard transmission Focus Hatchback for $20,000 even. I test-drove all three cars and all three seemed solid choices to me.

AWD however shoves you into Impreza-only territory.

 

[KLiKzg]

It's not just energy content, it's also efficiency; and high compression means higher efficiency.

So I disagree, an efficient engine can use more of the fuels chemical energy; that's how diesels work.

Actually No!

Diesel cycle is fairly inferior to Otto cycle, which both are inferior to Atkinson cycle.

People do not believe that, but those are the facts.

& spending fuel doesn't mean any cycle has higher or lower efficiency. It only means it spends more or less fuel.

Reason? Compression.

Car people hate CVTs, because they annoying AF when doing designed what for they are intended for; keeping the engine in the sweet spot RPM band. That and they still have a fair bit of drivetrain loss compared to a a clutch and manual gear box if I'm not mistaken. Not all that great of innovation in my opinion...

It doesn't matter if you like it or not...CVT are the future, as they keep the engine at sweet spot & spend less fuel.

Real life tests prove it: https://www.cenex.com/about/cenex-i...al-interest/automatic-vs-manual-transmissions

 

[Operandi]

The CVT variant of my Impreza actually gets better gas mileage than my 5MT, far better with the DI variant of the FB20. They're actually very efficient as there are bigger Subarus with a CVT that have better gas mileage than my vehicle, despite weighing more and having bigger engines (2.5 vs. 2.0). Now, I didn't buy a CVT for one main reason, I wanted a standard because I enjoy it.

Yeah, I guess so. All the Subarus with CVT option get better millage than manuals, the same thing for the Honda Civic and those are the only two I know of that offer both transmission types.

 

[KLiKzg]

Yeah, I guess so. All the Subarus with CVT option get better millage than manuals, the same thing for the Honda Civic and those are the only two I know of that offer both transmission types.

Toyota's also...some Mazda's...as well as Honda Jazz & Honda Accord / Acura TSX (if I am not mistaken).

Though those Audi ones are total garbage.

 

[Operandi]

Though those Audi ones are total garbage.

VAG dosn't use any CVTs in any of their vehicles that I know of. Its all regular torque converter automatics and DSGs, and the DSGs are quite good, my VW uses a 6 speed DSG.

 

[Aquinus]

VAG dosn't use any CVTs in any of their vehicles that I know of. Its all regular torque converter automatics and DSGs, and the DSGs are quite good, my VW uses a 6 speed DSG.

VAG really likes their DSGs. Nissans are a CVT I'd stay away from though given their track record. I don't particularly like the TR580 CVTs in the Subarus though. I've always felt that they were a bit on the sluggish side. The TR690s are pretty solid though. I actually really like the EZ36 with it, it's really smooth and that 3.6L produces 150HP to the wheels at 2500RPMs. I really enjoyed driving a Legacy with that setup. Unfortunately Subaru killed off the 6 bangers.

I do hope you are good as a Software Engineer, 'cause you would fail in thermodynamics & be a lousy Mechanical Engineer.

That's not disproving what I said. I cited an MIT lecture slide series. Are you telling me that they're wrong?

 

[KLiKzg]

VAG dosn't use any CVTs in any of their vehicles that I know of. Its all regular torque converter automatics and DSGs, and the DSGs are quite good, my VW uses a 6 speed DSG.

Well lets see, they did this commercial for CVT "multitronic" gearboxes in US:

Then there is technical movie about it:

& they killed it, 'cause they did not solve all the issue with cars:
1. https://www.drive.com.au/news/audi-kills-off-multitronic-cvt-automatic-forever/
2. https://www.motor1.com/news/48333/audi-confirms-plans-to-discontinue-the-multitronic-cvt/

VAG really likes their DSGs. Nissans are a CVT I'd stay away from though given their track record. I don't particularly like the TR580 CVTs in the Subarus though. I've always felt that they were a bit on the sluggish side. The TR690s are pretty solid though. I actually really like the EZ36 with it, it's really smooth and that 3.6L produces 150HP to the wheels at 2500RPMs. I really enjoyed driving a Legacy with that setup. Unfortunately Subaru killed off the 6 bangers.

That's not disproving what I said. I cited an MIT lecture slide series. Are you telling me that they're wrong?

VAG maybe like their DSG, but all of them are shit. Except the only one that works without problems, the PSG!

& you cited them in a way, that got all the marbles wrong. That is how I new you do not hold the topic in your hands.
I would never be bold about Pyhton or C++, like you are with thermodynamics. Lots of people failed it, when trying only to cite things without any meaning what so ever.

 

[Bomby569]

this topic derailed worst then a train wreck

 

[LabRat 891]

Reading just the thread title, I have an answer.
Regulations and restrictions on metal hydrides:

I recall several appearingly successful attempts and demonstrations of safe and efficient 'distributed h2 storage' using hydrides. They were unable to make it to market due to 'restrictions on hazardous materials'

 

[Bomby569]

Reading just the thread title, I have an answer.
Regulations and restrictions on metal hydrides:

I recall several appearingly successful attempts and demonstrations of safe and efficient 'distributed h2 storage' using hydrides. They were unable to make it to market due to 'restrictions on hazardous materials'

i just read this week this

Toyota Refuses To Abandon 25-Year-Old Technology

Instead, it's doubling down on it.

carbuzz.com

 

[Aquinus]

& you cited them in a way, that got all the marbles wrong. That is how I new you do not hold the topic in your hands.
I would never be bold about Pyhton or C++, like you are with thermodynamics. Lots of people failed it, when trying only to cite things without any meaning what so ever.

You still haven't disproved what I said and I'm still waiting for a rebuttal. Stop trying to bait me and disprove what I said instead of being a prick about it.

 

[Space Lynx]

Designers hope hydrogen-powered plane will fly halfway around the world without refueling

The zero-emission aircraft would supposedly match the speed and comfort of current midsize planes.

www.engadget.com

interesting read here, posted yesterday

 

[Bomby569]

Designers hope hydrogen-powered plane will fly halfway around the world without refueling

The zero-emission aircraft would supposedly match the speed and comfort of current midsize planes.

www.engadget.com

interesting read here, posted yesterday

someone already made it fly, there are several build prototypes, someone else is promissing regular fligths in a decade, so having a concept at this stage is being way behind the curve.

 

[Space Lynx]

someone already made it fly, there are several build prototypes, someone else is promissing regular fligths in a decade, so having a concept at this stage is being way behind the curve.

are you sure that was a 150+ people passenger airplane that has already done it?

 

[Bomby569]

are you sure that was a 150+ people passenger airplane that has already done it?

i actually tought there had been already a test flight for an airbus but someone pointed out to me i was wrong, but there were already several flights with smaller planes.
Airbus has presented their project for more then a year now i think.
And the german government is backing several hydrogen projects, not necessarily aviation, but if this is to be going forward i think it's essential it's not just aviation so costs can come down

 

[defaultluser]

i actually tought there had been already a test flight for an airbus but someone pointed out to me i was wrong, but there were already several flights with smaller planes.
Airbus has presented their project for more then a year now i think.
And the german government is backing several hydrogen projects, not necessarily aviation, but if this is to be going forward i think it's essential it's not just aviation so costs can come down

What miracle of Hydrogen Storage is going to be solved by Trains, but will somehow be magically-applicable to planes?

A diesel-electric train is already a giant Gas Tank (easily converted to H2), but planes have to store the fuel in the wings (and make the tanks load-bearing).

I'ts a lot hader to get over these design defficiencies when you put multiple H2 tank on a plane.

 

[Space Lynx]

i actually tought there had been already a test flight for an airbus but someone pointed out to me i was wrong, but there were already several flights with smaller planes.
Airbus has presented their project for more then a year now i think.
And the german government is backing several hydrogen projects, not necessarily aviation, but if this is to be going forward i think it's essential it's not just aviation so costs can come down

I mainly was just showing that the interest is growing anyway, regardless of what type. Hence the title of my thread here... perhaps the hydrogen movement is not done after all, I think for the masses it won't happen, but in targeted areas within certain targeted countries, like Japan and Germany are moving pretty strong on it.