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Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

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I'm convinced there's a lot more research and innovation to be done with hydrogen; there's not much for batteries
People who say "there's not much more that can be done in field X" generally end up looking rather foolish a decade or so down the line.
 

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It's physics. Compare capacitors (high power, short duration) with batteries (low power, long duration). The fundamental concept of both is trapping electrons and the higher energy those electrons have, the more inclined they are to escape entrapment. This tradeoff is inescapable. Batteries have not improved much over the last 20 years (latest breakthrough was lithium-ion). They've also not improved much in terms of energy density nor cost (about 100% since proof of concept). Li-ion was coming down in $/kwh but now it's going up again because of excess demand versus supply.

Meanwhile, look at Toyota Mirai between the first generation and second generation. Everything about it improved by double digits (20% more power, 15% more hydrogen capacity, 30% more range, etc.) in the space of six years. Toyota isn't even trying that hard because it's such a low volume product.
 
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Meanwhile, look at Toyota Mirai between the first generation and second generation. Everything about it improved by double digits (20% more power, 15% more hydrogen capacity, 30% more range, etc.) in the space of six years. Toyota isn't even trying that hard because it's such a low volume product.
It improved so much because hydrogen hasn't received nearly as much R&D as batteries and li-ion in particular, so there's a lot more low-hanging fruit to be plucked from the hydrogen research tree. Those impressive increases are going to drop off fast once all the easy wins are won.

That's not to say that it's not worthwhile to invest into hydrogen R&D - the more options we have to get away from fossil fuels, absolutely the better - but writing off battery tech in favour of hydrogen is certainly premature.
 
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I dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but Bob Lazar made his own Corvette a hydrogen powered car that does full speeds and goes 400 miles. He used 4 heavy pressure canisters and a electrolysis setup he inventted to store water on one side and split only what you need as your driving with very little actual hydrogen/oxygen stored, which makes the dangers of it almost nil. It could be done so easily in a mass scale but it would cut the into the energy cartels and car makers so hard they fight it. He explains the whole setup and process here:
 

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@FordGT90Concept @Shrek @lexluthermiester

I just watched the above video in the post before this one, is this legit? Is it really that easy to do hydrogen? I don't know if I buy what this video is selling, because if it were that easy, wouldn't Toyota just have made lots of hydrogen stations easily in California for their Mirai hydrogen car?
 
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Hold up. I’m not in a situation where I can watch that video right now, but if I’m understanding what you said, his setup makes no sense as any electricity for on the fly electrolysis would be far more efficiently used running an electric motor.
 
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It's physics. Compare capacitors (high power, short duration) with batteries (low power, long duration). The fundamental concept of both is trapping electrons and the higher energy those electrons have, the more inclined they are to escape entrapment. This tradeoff is inescapable. Batteries have not improved much over the last 20 years (latest breakthrough was lithium-ion). They've also not improved much in terms of energy density nor cost (about 100% since proof of concept). Li-ion was coming down in $/kwh but now it's going up again because of excess demand versus supply.

Meanwhile, look at Toyota Mirai between the first generation and second generation. Everything about it improved by double digits (20% more power, 15% more hydrogen capacity, 30% more range, etc.) in the space of six years. Toyota isn't even trying that hard because it's such a low volume product.

It improved so much because hydrogen hasn't received nearly as much R&D as batteries and li-ion in particular, so there's a lot more low-hanging fruit to be plucked from the hydrogen research tree. Those impressive increases are going to drop off fast once all the easy wins are won.

That's not to say that it's not worthwhile to invest into hydrogen R&D - the more options we have to get away from fossil fuels, absolutely the better - but writing off battery tech in favour of hydrogen is certainly premature.

So, I'm not sure if you guys are trolling, revising history, or simply have such a limiting view that it's funny. I think it's time to reconcile.

That is to say, batteries based on electronegativity stretch back to ancient Egypt. Lithium ion batteries are also batteries that store energy through electronegativity...and literally began life as canopic jars that held ionic fluids. The "much more research" here is a vague and poorly defined transient interest in a specific chemistry of electronegative chemistry...which itself has mostly been focused on the terminal construction to allow for increased charging rates and increased battery life before the chemical make-up of these batteries starts to degrade.
Remember, there are tutorials out there regarding the common sulfuric acid-lead batteries that have been around basically as long as electrical power has been commonly adopted.


Now, likewise, hydrogen is ancient. Did nobody ever think to look at the primary source of hydrogen, electrolysis, and do any sort of thinking? What about the isolation of excess hydrogen from the petroleum distillation process used on the Hindenburg?
Let me be even less obtuse, in chemistry there are an entire branch of reactions which are called electrolytic...most of which separate elemental gasses from compounds utilizing either chemical reactions or outside energy inputs.


Now that we've laid waste to the history argument, why do you not see hydrogen vehicles out on the road? Why was Toyota able to do it in very limited demonstrative form? Why am I so angry about the above...when it's history?
Let me answer these posed questions in order.

1) Why aren't hydrogen vehicles on the road?
Let me start by stating that energy density is the largest single factor here. The reaction in question is 2 H2+ O2 = 2H2O. You don't carry around the O2, just like the octane reaction. That, for the record, is 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 = 16 CO2 + 18 H2O. If you do some basic chemistry on this, you basically need a bunch more hydrogen to create the same energy as a single octane molecule...but the problem is in storing that hydrogen.
Let me now state some more basic chemistry. In most materials solids are more dense than liquids, liquids and more dense than gasses, and that elemental hydrogen follows these rules. Thus, an elemental gas needs to be under immense pressure to both have the amount of atoms to rival a simple hydrocarbon combustion reaction and to store that energy in the same volumetric space.
Did you catch that? I hope you did...because the operative words there were that hydrogen gas needs to be stored under immense pressure and in great quantities to rival the much cheaper and more stable technology of a tank full of hydrocarbons.

This is to say nothing of the storage, leakage, and crash safety of the technology. Hydrogen atoms are tiny...so they have the tendency to leak very easily. Imagine not running your car for a few days...and having 20% of the fuel gone. Imagine storing that car inside a garage...and the leaked hydrogen being a stupidly high risk for any spark anywhere to cause a detonation. Now if that wasn't enough, imagine an accident. Hydrogen tanks represent an immediate risk of explosive decompression, a less immediate risk of detonation by spark, and finally a risk of kinetic shock should they decompress without the other bad things happening. All of this is basic physics.

2) Why was Toyota able to do it?
Well, Toyota retrofitted a common car with a hydrogen power cell. Really easy, and really expensive. Store the hydrogen, burn through it immediately after fueling, and never deal with the longer term issues. Cool.
Why did they have double digit break-throughs on performance? Well...math. If you look at current technologies your car has a fuel-air ratio, and a compression ratio. The earliest cars did a very bad job with this...and were inefficient. We've had hundreds of years to refine the input materials (which hydrocarbons), and the compression ratios (remember tetra-ethyl lead...that leaded gas was introduced to raise compression ratios before auto ignition) to make engines run efficiently.
Toyota had the same place to start, and the same refinements to make. In the business, we call this low hanging fruit for optimization.

So...Toyota ignored the fundamental storage issues, by not having this in a consumer vehicle. They showed vast improvements...by optimizing reactions. They did all of this without worrying about a consumer price tag...because this was a research project rather than a production vehicle. Once you do all that math, it's easy to see why they might not have as many issues demonstrated to the public...and despite this never get close to a consumer release.




So....what is the way forward? Well, that's hard to say. There are two hydrogen technologies that matter. That'd be combustion as a stop-gap replacement to hydrocarbons, and a means to directly convert elemental hydrogen and oxygen to electrical potential via a membrane transfer. Basically, instead of blowing up the hydrogen and getting expanding gas that converts to linear mechanical potential energy you get straight electrical potential energy.
The thing about both of these technologies is still the thing that we started with. How do you store the immense amount of hydrogen safely? How do you access it? How do you make it cheap? How do you make it safe?

These are not new questions. Humans have spent hundreds of years trying to make hydrogen safe. Hundreds more have been spent trying to store energy. The failure here is physics, but it's not a magically recent failure. It's literally hundreds of years of failures, improvements, and break-throughs. Ignoring all of that, and pretending that some sort of short term break-through is going to make anything more viable, is a joke.



As an aside, it may be possible to fix the storage issue. If you can do that, then you'll be fabulously wealthy. Good luck though...people have spent literal lifetimes looking for that answer. I find it frustrating when people continue to spout the nonsense that all of the problems will be fixed in our lifetimes...completely disregarding the lifetimes already spent on this issue. Maybe instead of dreaming, we educate ourselves. The past is a prelude to the present and future...and there's a reason things like rigid airships are a thing of fiction...rather than non-fiction.
 
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I just watched the above video in the post before this one, is this legit? Is it really that easy to do hydrogen? I don't know if I buy what this video is selling, because if it were that easy, wouldn't Toyota just have made lots of hydrogen stations easily in California for their Mirai hydrogen car?

A particle accelerator to make hydrides...
 
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@FordGT90Concept @Shrek @lexluthermiester

I just watched the above video in the post before this one, is this legit? Is it really that easy to do hydrogen? I don't know if I buy what this video is selling, because if it were that easy, wouldn't Toyota just have made lots of hydrogen stations easily in California for their Mirai hydrogen car?
No idea. Certainly sounds interesting and at least on a basic level the chemistry should work, if I'm understanding it correctly. The viability as an infrastructure is what I would question.
 
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Just doing a quick look around I found some definite negatives for using hydrogen as fuel:
  • Investment is Required. ...
  • Cost of Raw Materials. ...
  • Regulatory Issues. ...
  • Overall Cost. ...
  • Hydrogen Storage. ...
  • Infrastructure. ...
  • Highly Flammable.
  • There's virtually no pure hydrogen on Earth because it's so reactive. Most hydrogen is made from methane [natural gas] in a process that produces carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.
The reason we are still using fossil fuels to power our cars is because it's a cheaper and simpler means of energy production. One day when we are running out of cheap fossil fuels that will change. Hopefully at that time Fusion will be cheap enough and simple to use and practical for transportation.

Two years ago, a group of scientists in China worked out how to create pure hydrogen from a reusable alloy of gallium, indium, tin and bismuth, using an aluminum plate and water. The output was a breakdown of water molecules, with pure hydrogen and oxygen at 92% efficiency.

Hydrogen is indeed flammable, and it's highly reactive because of its simple atomic structure. That said, it's no more dangerous than any other flammable substance we use today when you have all the required safety measures in place. The system requires significantly less pressure than petroleum and diesel to burn hydrogen, which is both a blessing and a curse.


The largest issue for any alternative fuel (not electric) is infrastructure. There are more gas stations than stars. So building new stations would be troublesome and converting the others a logistical headache (and costly) which means it won't happen until necessary.

Electric cars largely are unaffected by this but suffer from their obviously longer 'refuel' times.

All the more reason for governments to get behind new alternative fuels. California and Japan are leading the way.

Toyota is already doing lots of research in it, and Toyota just came out with this recently, a hydrogen combustion engine, no Fuel Cell:


Hydrogen fuel cells are a big topic for me for my degree. Hydrogen combustion engines aren't new, but it is Toyota that has developed the technology the most. Outside of Japan, Hyundai has also dabbled in hydrogen fuel cells with developments that also dwarf those of the western world.

There's one caveat to hydrogen combustion engines compared to fuel-cell vehicles, and that's the production of nitrogen oxides during the combustion process. Compared to petroleum and diesel engines, it's miniscule, but it's there. One way to offset this, is to burn the hydrogen at a reduced temperature which can be achieved by supplying less fuel relative to the air mixture. Nitrogen oxide production is practically eliminated, and you also gain fuel economy/range from this process.

Off topic for HFCs, but also worthy of note, is that you can have internal combustion engines in V-configurations that output the power (and sound) you would expect, but consume the fuel of a standard I-configuration engine. Connaught in the UK has developed a modular V10 engine which outputs 300 bhp and achieves 40 mpg. As the engine is modular, it could also be made into an "X20" engine, or cut down into a V4 engine.
 
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@FordGT90Concept @Shrek @lexluthermiester

I just watched the above video in the post before this one, is this legit? Is it really that easy to do hydrogen? I don't know if I buy what this video is selling, because if it were that easy, wouldn't Toyota just have made lots of hydrogen stations easily in California for their Mirai hydrogen car?
Seems so...

#1 He says hydride without saying what is blended with to make it presumably solid. 9:30 he finally says he can't say it because it's "classified as a weapon material in thermo-nuclear weapons." He runs a company (United Nuclear) that deals in exotic materials so this is plausible.

#2 When he produces hydrogen/oxygen, he mentions peroxide and other chemicals to accelerate electrolysis which have to leave the process somehow...may potentially be toxic.

#3 I have no idea if the text at the end is the hydride Lazar was talking about (lithium-6 deuteride) but it checks out: it is used in fusion bombs to stabilize the fuel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_hydride#Lithium_deuteride

#4 Lazar never explains how energy is extracted from the hydrogen in the vehicle to propel it. Is it pure combustion? Explains why that's not smart here:
That said, Toyota is trying it:
I doubt he actually converted the Corvette into a fuel cell otherwise he wouldn't have kept the gas tank.

Assuming lithium-6 deutride is the magical ingredient, I have no idea how difficult that is to produce and how much quantity of it is required to power something large like an airliner, ship, train, or truck.

We also don't know how advantageous using a hydride is compared to compressed hydrogen. And this point is really the only thing different about Lazar's approach.
 
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People who say "there's not much more that can be done in field X" generally end up looking rather foolish a decade or so down the line.
Or get without a job. :cool:
 

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That is to say, batteries based on electronegativity stretch back to ancient Egypt.
I was talking specifically about lithium-ion and is there much room to increase energy density from there. Obviously I don't think so. Battery tech has evolved at a snail's pace and each evolution, although significant in terms of batteries, is pitiful compared to chemical stores of energy like hydrocarbons, methane, or hydrogen. Even if there's three more breakthroughs, it's still not going to solve humanity's need for more energy. He talks about this here:
 
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It's physics. Compare capacitors (high power, short duration) with batteries (low power, long duration). The fundamental concept of both is trapping electrons and the higher energy those electrons have, the more inclined they are to escape entrapment. This tradeoff is inescapable. Batteries have not improved much over the last 20 years (latest breakthrough was lithium-ion). They've also not improved much in terms of energy density nor cost (about 100% since proof of concept). Li-ion was coming down in $/kwh but now it's going up again because of excess demand versus supply.
This is simply NOT TRUE. Take it from someone working in Rimac, as batteries will soon have productional version of "breakthrough" technological leap. ;)
 

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This is simply NOT TRUE. Take it from someone working in Rimac, as batteries will soon have productional version of "breakthrough" technological leap. ;)
Explain. Gasoline is 13x more energy dense than li-ion by volume and 50x more dense by weight. Batteries have to massively close that gap to become a 1:1 replacement (e.g. use it in planes, trains and trucks).
 
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Explain. Gasoline is 13x more energy dense than li-ion by volume and 50x more dense by weight. Batteries have to massively close that gap to become a 1:1 replacement (e.g. use it in planes, trains and trucks).
Without crossing NDA, there are batteries which will reduce the mass, while keeping the same or similar wattage...which will make EV far more competitive on the market.

On top that electric motors have far more superiority than any otto or attkinson driven engine. But we will see.


There is also possibility of return of diesel in hydrodiesel form, which make 20% of water in diesel. Lowers emissions by at least 30%.
We will see if that same principle will get in gasoline also. :cool:
 
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This is simply NOT TRUE. Take it from someone working in Rimac, as batteries will soon have productional version of "breakthrough" technological leap. ;)
Unless this "breakthrough" you mention can produce batteries with 5 to 6 times the current best energy density of LiPo, it's not enough to become a viable replacement to IC.
 
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Yeah, as much as gasoline sucks, its also really, really, really good as a fuel source. I still say that PHEV is best of both worlds. Enough Li-ion to grossly reduce gasoline usage, but still using that gasoline tank when you want to travel 300, 400, 500+ miles on one fillup.

That people are seriously considering Hydrogen-Syngas as an intermediate step and are experimenting with synthetic hydrocarbon fuels just demonstrates how good (low-volume / low weight / low-flashpoint / high-auto ignition) hydrocarbons are in general.

As I said earlier in this thread: Hydrogen research is worthwhile, because even if it "fails" as a consumer technology, green-hydrogen production is still needed for ammonia (aka: Fertilizer production) and other chemicals. Using hydrogen as a fuel would be ideal since it has fewer processing steps compared to another syngas -> kerosene (or whatever hydrocarbon) is out there, and is worthwhile to experiment with.
 
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Using hydrogen as a fuel would be ideal since it has fewer processing steps compared to another syngas -> kerosene (or whatever hydrocarbon) is out there, and is worthwhile to experiment with.

It's also the most abundant element in the universe.

It's not like we'll be travelling to the Sun and taking huge chunks out of it anytime soon, but let's just be glad that we're not forced to rely on synthetic elements as a replacement.
 
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Yeah, as much as gasoline sucks, its also really, really, really good as a fuel source. I still say that PHEV is best of both worlds. Enough Li-ion to grossly reduce gasoline usage, but still using that gasoline tank when you want to travel 300, 400, 500+ miles on one fillup.
This. I currently get between 500 and 540 mpg in my current car, which is now 18years old. I am NOT downgrading my driving experience for EV.
 

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Aptera can go 1000 miles for $6. ;)
 
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This. I currently get between 500 and 540 mpg in my current car, which is now 18years old. I am NOT downgrading my driving experience for EV.

Some people would say accelerating like a Ferrari was an upgrade.
 
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Some people would say accelerating like a Ferrari was an upgrade.

Accelerating like a Ferrari without the suspension to handle it is... well...


Hear that bouncy suspension. Dude slams on his breaks and nothing happens, just continues to "bounce" until he hits the building. Its like 4500lbs of batteries and weight in that form factor is hard to make a suspension for or something.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Looks to me like going over that feature in the pavement broke the aero dynamics of the car (probably high pressure) sending the rear of the vehicle into the air. The car doesn't have a spoiler to generate downforce while at the same time, the weight of the car trying to come down yet again generates high pressure sending it air borne again. He was trying to stop using the front wheels alone and you need a lot more pavement for that.

In short, what transpired in that video exceeds the expectations of Tesla engineers and the driver. This is why high-speed driving should only be done on the track.



Back on topic, Germany wants to convert their steel industry to hydrogen...and they're trying to source it from Australia. Kind of bizarre:
 
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Mussels

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Accelerating like a Ferrari without the suspension to handle it is... well...


Hear that bouncy suspension. Dude slams on his breaks and nothing happens, just continues to "bounce" until he hits the building. Its like 4500lbs of batteries and weight in that form factor is hard to make a suspension for or something.
Nothing to do with a kid who cant drive, going into some bushes over a jump or anything - the noises was the car saying "yeeeet" over this
1653978999794.png
 
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