Intel "Raptor Lake" Core i9 Sample Powers Up, 8P+16E Configuration Confirmed

[b1k3rdude]

ecores are energy efficient cores and these do boost MT performance.

They are just slower fixed clocked cores, nothing special about them. The fact intel wont (or cant) give us 16 P-Core chips, just shows how good/effeiencent the Ryzen chiplet design is.

With the rising costs of electricity, AMD are the clear winner here. I wont be looking at buying a CPU or GPU that favour power over efficiency to get the job done.

 

[phanbuey]

I'm perplexed by those e-cores, what do they do exactly? Alder Lake parts are very fast but pathetic when it comes to efficiency, in laptops they are way worse in battery life. Seems to me thru lost the core count battle so they just throw those useless e-core and give lots of power to the p-cores.

This is the opposite of reality. I would love to see the "way worse" battery life tests.

Every review I've read of alder lake mobile has it stomping the competition, and doing so while on a larger less efficient node, barring the m1 pro (which is a completely different ISA on a smaller node).

Intel Core i7-12700H Review: Alder Lake on the Go | TechSpot

They are just slower fixed clocked cores, nothing special about them. The fact intel wont (or cant) give us 16 P-Core chips, just shows how good/effeiencent the Ryzen chiplet design is.

With the rising costs of electricity, AMD are the clear winner here. I wont be looking at buying a CPU or GPU that favour power over efficiency to get the job done.

AMD is going the exact same route BTW. Zen 5 is going to be 8C Zen 5 and 16C Zen 4D (high density e cores). So you know that design has something going for it. Intel without e cores wouldn't even be in contention at the high end on their current node, and neither would Zen 4 at 10nm.

 

[BArms]

I'm perplexed by those e-cores, what do they do exactly? Alder Lake parts are very fast but pathetic when it comes to efficiency, in laptops they are way worse in battery life. Seems to me thru lost the core count battle so they just throw those useless e-core and give lots of power to the p-cores.

e-cores make a lot of sense in a laptop where power efficiency is a coveted feature. But on desktops? e-cores have two massive disadvantages for me which means I absolutely will not buy any Intel P+E chips until they're addressed.

A) required to use Windows 11 for best performance. Windows 11 is fine but Microsoft's draconian requirements and shoving their anti-consumer practices down everyone's throat means I'm going to be trying Linux, probably SteamOS before I try Windows 11 for anything. I'm starting to feel old, because I used to always switch the latest version of WIndows as soon as I could, I even used and had good success with Vista, but the highly questionable decisions to enforce TPM and require a microsoft + internet access to install the damn OS is just too much, F microsoft and Windows 11. Yes, I feel strongly about it and I'm probably not in the majority but for me Intel is guilty by association with Windows 10's inferior core scheduler.

B) E cores on a desktop that's always plugged into the wall are not really that useful over another P core. P cores can still go into very low-power mode anyway so I highly doubt anyone is even saving that much energy in most desktop use cases.

 

[P4-630]

and require a microsoft + internet access to install the damn OS is just too much

During the windows 11 installation I was at the network settings and used Shift + F10, cmd popped up, typed: “oobe\bypassnro”,
The pc restarted, it skipped the network settings and I was able to create a local account.
Succeeded

 

[qubit]

They are just slower fixed clocked cores, nothing special about them. The fact intel wont (or cant) give us 16 P-Core chips, just shows how good/effeiencent the Ryzen chiplet design is.

With the rising costs of electricity, AMD are the clear winner here. I wont be looking at buying a CPU or GPU that favour power over efficiency to get the job done.

Thing is that can be a false economy depending on the exact circumstances. It may be better to nuke a task with the fastest performance rather than dragging it out over a longer time. Yes, doing the job faster can save significant power depending on the task and lengths of time.

 

[R0H1T]

AMD is going the exact same route BTW. Zen 5 is going to be 8C Zen 5 and 16C Zen 4D (high density e cores). So you know that design has something going for it. Intel without e cores wouldn't even be in contention at the high end on their current node, and neither would Zen 4 at 10nm.

Not exactly, Intel *mont are on completely different uarch whilst AMD "light" cores will have just the less cache, more for X3d models, IIRC.

 

[BArms]

During the windows 11 installation I was at the network settings and used Shift + F10, cmd popped up, typed: “oobe\bypassnro”,
The pc restarted, it skipped the network settings and I was able to create a local account.
Succeeded

Until Microsoft patches that out. I think there have been something like 10 or so bypasses discovered, but Microsoft keeps blocking them with every new build, so this one likely won't work for much longer.

 

[R0H1T]

You can "bypass" them because MS really doesn't mind it that much, you can bet it that if they didn't find it "acceptable" they could very easily block it permanently!

 

[CrAsHnBuRnXp]

During the windows 11 installation I was at the network settings and used Shift + F10, cmd popped up, typed: “oobe\bypassnro”,
The pc restarted, it skipped the network settings and I was able to create a local account.
Succeeded

You could also just unplug the ethernet cable during setup.

 

[P4-630]

You could also just unplug the ethernet cable during setup.

Using a motherboard with Wifi here...

 

[Chrispy_]

i wouldve been surprised if it actually wasnt faster than a 5950x - it better be, given the age of the 5950x now.

The 12900K overclocked at 350W can roughly match a bone-stock 5950X using 142W in real-world renderers and it'll even beat it in Cinebench & Blender when you push the memory bandwidth hard enough. The performance is there with Alder Lake right now but performance/Watt isn't even half what AMD get out of their architecture on TSMC 7FF

Pure, scalable software rendering like V-Ray that doesn't rely on bandwidth or AVX512 gimmickery are still comfortably the domain of Zen3 and I think Intel's problem is that they're power limited. They have the architecture to beat AMD right now but to do so in something like V-Ray would need so many Watts delivered to the socket that it would just turn to hot slag. Hopefully more E-cores and Intel 4nm combine to push the performance envelope forward.

 

[Selaya]

intel 4 is 7nm tho (i believe? 7 is 10nm)
the problem w/ the 12900k is just that its pushed way above its efficiency window like, if you were to chop it back to like 150w you'd still be at something like 80% of its performance, so yeah id imagine more E-cores being good for MT stuff

 

[CrAsHnBuRnXp]

Using a motherboard with Wifi here...

Should give you the option for "i dont hvae wifi"?

 

[P4-630]

Should give you the option for "i dont hvae wifi"?

I didn't try that if there was the option.

Anyway I'm all good for now

 

[docnorth]

Any answer about the lowest multiplier being 4, not 8?

the problem w/ the 12900k is just that its pushed way above its efficiency window like, if you were to chop it back to like 150w you'd still be at something like 80% of its performance

Actually way better than 80%, with pl1 = pl2 = 125w it reaches 85,9% of application performance compared to 241w and practically the same gaming performance. Numbers are from TPU test. Anyway this means I agree with your point.

 

[Selaya]

tpu application bench suite is a mix of 1t and mt, we're talking strictly about mt here; it's mt that suffers from those lower PLs, so at 125w you're def seeing less than 86% of the perf from mt

 

[Aretak]

Hooray, more useless cuck cores that do absolutely to improve the things I use my desktop PC for. Thanks, Intel!

AVX-512 died for this, and that's something which actually does have a large performance impact on a program that I run regularly.

 

[Minus Infinity]

I guess the 8c is the new sweet spot and it would seem Intel is doing the core stagnation again. This time it is with 8c and just add e cores to compensate. Core count is a core count in some people's eyes. It will be advertised as 24 core anyway.

Apprently it doesn't change with Meteor Lake either, still 8 P-cores, just more e-cores.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Still no understanding of the E cores i see. 'shrug'

 

[Prima.Vera]

Windows 10 can use the E cores just fine. People saying that you need Win11 for this should check any comparison benchmarks out there that address this exact issue.
There was a Win10 update a couple of months ago that brength the exact functionality of Win11 to Windows 10.

 

[vMax65]

I just do not get it, the 12600, 12700 and 12900 all with e-cores made a significant difference against the very best AMD has, in fact the 12600 with only 4 e-cores manages to hang with the 5800X! 8 full fat cores with hyperthreading vs 6 full fat cores, hyperthreading and 4 - e-cores...go figure. And the 12600 and 12700 all versions from non k upwards are driving performance efficiently. the 12900K and KS are the halo products and can and will suck a lot of power but in the low to middle the power efficiency vs performance is stellar. The e-cores in a desktop environment with Windows 11 runs fantastically well. The e-cores handle all the background tasks with ease, in fact it's so seamless you would never know and then the P-cores come in for the heavy lifting and even then if required the e-cores help out even more.

This is not to say the hybrid approach is perfect but it has given Intel a massive performance improvement from the crud that was 14nm in the 11th gen where they have taken back the lead especially in productivity workloads and a lot of us do use these workloads across encoding, rendering etc oh and yes I game as well . AMD on the other hand have there own highly efficient solution with the advantage of a long lived platform that works extremely well. The key is that we have a choice, a proper choice now that AMD socked it to Intel and made them compete. Not sure what the issue is on e-cores but more than impressed on my workloads with the 12700K and I now have more performance than I even I expected which only bodes well for the longevity of this CPU before I upgrade in 5 odd years to whatever is best at the time..

Raptor Lake with 8 P-Cores of the new Golden Cove type and 16 Gracemont e-cores with a higher cache at the top end will be interesting but it will be the halo product, the 13400, 13600 and 13700 will be the interesting ones and we will soon see how well that pans out but it is Meteor Lake that really matters as it is on the new N4 process node with a 40% lower power consumption and low and behold they are going the chiplet route ala AMD (though it will be the new 3D Foveros platform that will make or break Meteor Lake)...Looking forward to see if they can pull it off...

 

[Niceumemu]

Using a motherboard with Wifi here...

You can disable the wifi in the bios too you know

 

[Vayra86]

Can i take the alternative timeline intel 13th gen where that 16e core space is taken by an aditional 8 pcores instead?

You can, its called AMD.

I just do not get it, the 12600, 12700 and 12900 all with e-cores made a significant difference against the very best AMD has, in fact the 12600 with only 4 e-cores manages to hang with the 5800X! 8 full fat cores with hyperthreading vs 6 full fat cores, hyperthreading and 4 - e-cores...go figure. And the 12600 and 12700 all versions from non k upwards are driving performance efficiently. the 12900K and KS are the halo products and can and will suck a lot of power but in the low to middle the power efficiency vs performance is stellar. The e-cores in a desktop environment with Windows 11 runs fantastically well. The e-cores handle all the background tasks with ease, in fact it's so seamless you would never know and then the P-cores come in for the heavy lifting and even then if required the e-cores help out even more.

This is not to say the hybrid approach is perfect but it has given Intel a massive performance improvement from the crud that was 14nm in the 11th gen where they have taken back the lead especially in productivity workloads and a lot of us do use these workloads across encoding, rendering etc oh and yes I game as well . AMD on the other hand have there own highly efficient solution with the advantage of a long lived platform that works extremely well. The key is that we have a choice, a proper choice now that AMD socked it to Intel and made them compete. Not sure what the issue is on e-cores but more than impressed on my workloads with the 12700K and I now have more performance than I even I expected which only bodes well for the longevity of this CPU before I upgrade in 5 odd years to whatever is best at the time..

Raptor Lake with 8 P-Cores of the new Golden Cove type and 16 Gracemont e-cores with a higher cache at the top end will be interesting but it will be the halo product, the 13400, 13600 and 13700 will be the interesting ones and we will soon see how well that pans out but it is Meteor Lake that really matters as it is on the new N4 process node with a 40% lower power consumption and low and behold they are going the chiplet route ala AMD (though it will be the new 3D Foveros platform that will make or break Meteor Lake)...Looking forward to see if they can pull it off...

The brilliance of their big little implementation is unfortunately heavily hampered by the node they're baking on, and the fact they haven't moved to a chiplet approach yet. Its a bit of a chicken/egg conundrum if you ask me. Without the ancient technology that this architecture is built upon, the necessity for it pretty much evaporates, and this is shown live and direct by the direct competition.

Another perspective, though, is that the ideal product would marry both concepts: chiplet with interconnect, and several core designs next to each other. In both situations though we're looking at something that can clearly use refinement. But the strides that AMD is making on their chiplet end of the line, are much bigger per generation and over the course of Ryzen versus the samey-timed Intel releases.

It remains to be seen what truly is better. One thing is absolutely certain: the REASON these E-cores extract an advantage right now, is because these CPUs are barely ever pushed to their limits. You quite simply can't, you either run into its retarded boost limit Wattage cap, or you run into a cap you set for yourself after having met 241W once, or you run into heavily reduced clocks. Intel made a great CPU for low intensity consumer segment, but a shite CPU otherwise. This extends to gaming: gaming is a pretty light load, not parallelized at all, and barely loads cores fully, if ever. Not a huge surprise that ADL works for it and the E cores help a bit on background load.

Another aspect in this race is often forgotten: yields and production cost. I reckon AMD has a MUCH higher margin on Ryzen chips than Intel will ever get on their ADL line and followups. Fact is, they're still building monolithic chips and they make them per segment. Ryzen is just a slice of EPYC. And an underlying aspect in that, is that power consumption is going to matter. If you can't keep shrinking, you must go wider. I think the next GPU generation will drive that fact home for us. 450W on top end ADA...

 

[PapaTaipei]

Serious question: why isn't Intel making a specific CPU serie targeted only for gamers with only or mostly P cores (and with no or minimal iGP)? Is it because that market is too small?

 

[Why_Me]

Serious question: why isn't Intel making a specific CPU serie targeted only for gamers with only or mostly P cores (and with no or minimal iGP)? Is it because that market is too small?