Japan and the Netherlands Said to Join US in Blocking Access to Chip Making Tools for China

[TheLostSwede]

According to Bloomberg, Japan and the Netherlands are getting ready to join the US in limiting access to advanced semiconductor manufacturing equipment for China. The three nations are currently in talks—that might end as soon as today—over how they can impose joint limits on what kind of equipment and tools can be exported to China. Apparently there will be no official announcement if a deal is struck, instead the restrictions will simply be implemented as required.

Bloomberg states that the Netherlands will expand export restrictions that ASML is already under, which according to the publication means stricter export rules around DEUV machines, which are used in cutting edge semiconductor nodes. Japan is said to implement similar export restrictions for Nikon as well as Tokyo Electron, with the US already having implemented restrictions for Applied Materials. The export restriction deal is in part being done to appease US equipment makers, who have complained that their international competitors haven't been under the same export restrictions when it comes to China, as they have. The question is if the export restrictions will hinder China in the long run, or if the nation will simply push ahead and develop its own, competing semiconductor manufacturing tools.

Update Jan 28th: Japan and the Netherlands reached an agreement with the US on Friday and the two countries are said to be making individual announcements with regards to their individual agreements with the US.



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[Bwaze]

They could also bomb Chinese semiconductor facilities, right? It is, after all, trade war, not trade dispute or trade competition?

 

[bim27142]

The question is if the export restrictions will hinder China in the long run, or if the nation will simply push ahead and develop its own, competing semiconductor manufacturing tools.

It's just a matter of when, not if.

 

[cosminmcm]

Based!

 

[L'Eliminateur]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

 

[the54thvoid]

They could also bomb Chinese semiconductor facilities, right? It is, after all, trade war, not trade dispute or trade competition?

Let's not be silly, now. There is also such a thing as a war of words. The word has many uses, i.e., the war on drugs (fiscal/judicial). It does not necessarily have to be physical conflict.

 

[rainzor]

join US, forced by US....either way

 

[SOAREVERSOR]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

It has to do with three factors.

1. China is involved in rampant IP theft.
2. Several products made in China have had backdoors installed by their military.
3. COVID showed us the fragility of supply lines from there.

It's not just the US. Multiple countries have been advocating this because of 1 and 2 for some time now.

In the end this had to happen. Sorry you have to pay more for electronics oh well. Upgrade less maybe or game at less details.

 

[Deleted member 185088]

Stupidity of brain-dead leaders. Seems to be a leader in politics or a company, most important skill is to have the lowest IQ possible.

 

[Vayra86]

It has to do with three factors.

1. China is involved in rampant IP theft.
2. Several products made in China have had backdoors installed by their military.
3. COVID showed us the fragility of supply lines from there.

It's not just the US. Multiple countries have been advocating this because of 1 and 2 for some time now.

In the end this had to happen. Sorry you have to pay more for electronics oh well. Upgrade less maybe or game at less details.

This. The criticism that is most interesting imho on the current 'China moves' is that "we'll also lose access to what China makes". And this is true, but it is also inevitable, because we have learned by now that China isn't a trustworthy business partner. Its that simple. We've held on to that status quo for far too long and its how we got here.

I honestly cannot understand though how that irrational fear of having to pay more or 'not having something available now' is such a major issue. History is chock full of those times and situations, and that's when countries, people, and international relations start to excel. We're seeing that happen right now. Yes, we sacrifice a few certainties we've had recently. So what, that's life.

There is also still a group of people that still think trade is the only way to have peace. But that's just not true. Trade is a way to have diplomacy. We'll never have peace as long as we are a globe of nations with their own desires, goals, and competition. Even diplomacy/spoken and written word is a form of warfare, as is technology more now than ever. War can exist with or without diplomacy, but diplomacy still opens up ways to resolve conflicts. Whereas if you're not talking, you're not resolving anything.

I'm glad to live in 2022-2023 where we get this reality check again, it was long overdue.

 

[Dimitriman]

a bit too late me thinks

 

[Lionheart]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

I rather pay more than have CCP s**t in my hardware/software.

 

[Avro Arrow]

The only one here that really matters is the Netherlands because that's where all of the silicon fabrication hardware comes from.

 

[ThrashZone]

Let's not be silly, now. There is also such a thing as a war of words. The word has many uses, i.e., the war on drugs (fiscal/judicial). It does not necessarily have to be physical conflict.

Hi,
There is also something called espionage and sabotage which are frankly really easy anywhere but China

 

[kiriakost]

Too late.. Market this is all ready flooded with fake or replicates of branded transistors, MOSFET, IC and more.
The Chinese did their worst all ready.

 

[WorringlyIndifferent]

Whether or not we lose access to what China produces (we won't, because foreign trade is far too large a component of their economy), the intent of these trade blocks is to limit Chinese advancement/limit access to IP to steal.

1) I don't care about IP theft and you shouldn't either, unless you own a patent. Willing to bet most reading this don't. You aren't a corporation, and protecting the profits of a company you have nothing to do with is bizarre.

2) This will only accelerate Chinese advancement in the long run. Something like a baby bird getting kicked out of the nest or kicking a kid out of the house when they turn 18. But unlike a baby bird or a kid, China is an entire country. It won't fail or die; it will, collectively, adjust to the new restrictions and new difficulty. It'll become stronger, which it would either way, now it'll just do it faster and be more independent in the future.

I've been saying this for several years now, and anyone who thinks anything other than that will happen, feel free to come back and tell me "you told me so" in a few years' time. These trade limitations will only accelerate Chinese advancement because it forces them to figure things out on their own. That's not a good or bad thing, that's just how it's going to go.

I rather pay more than have CCP s**t in my hardware/software.

The CCP can't kick your California door in at 3AM for wrongthink against the current US regime. Feds can. This whole "hurr durr CCP backdoors are dangerous" thing is such blatant propaganda. American chip manufacturers are required to put backdoors into their hardware and tech companies in general are forced to comply. Look at what happened to Qwest's CEO when he found out about NSA spying on their network and tried to stop it. He was arrested for "insider trading" and denied bail by the Supreme Court of the United States on *the same day*. That court takes years to handle things, but someone who tried to stop illegal fed spying gets railroaded in a day.

Feds are a threat. American backdoors are a threat. To you, personally. Chinese backdoors aren't.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Whether or not we lose access to what China produces (we won't, because foreign trade is far too large a component of their economy), the intent of these trade blocks is to limit Chinese advancement/limit access to IP to steal.

1) I don't care about IP theft and you shouldn't either, unless you own a patent. Willing to bet most reading this don't. You aren't a corporation, and protecting the profits of a company you have nothing to do with is bizarre.

2) This will only accelerate Chinese advancement in the long run. Something like a baby bird getting kicked out of the nest or kicking a kid out of the house when they turn 18. But unlike a baby bird or a kid, China is an entire country. It won't fail or die; it will, collectively, adjust to the new restrictions and new difficulty. It'll become stronger, which it would either way, now it'll just do it faster and be more independent in the future.

I've been saying this for several years now, and anyone who thinks anything other than that will happen, feel free to come back and tell me "you told me so" in a few years' time. These trade limitations will only accelerate Chinese advancement because it forces them to figure things out on their own. That's not a good or bad thing, that's just how it's going to go.


The CCP can't kick your California door in at 3AM for wrongthink against the current US regime. Feds can. This whole "hurr durr CCP backdoors are dangerous" thing is such blatant propaganda. American chip manufacturers are required to put backdoors into their hardware and tech companies in general are forced to comply. Look at what happened to Qwest's CEO when he found out about NSA spying on their network and tried to stop it. He was arrested for "insider trading" and denied bail by the Supreme Court of the United States on *the same day*. That court takes years to handle things, but someone who tried to stop illegal fed spying gets railroaded in a day.

Feds are a threat. American backdoors are a threat. To you, personally. Chinese backdoors aren't.

You're never going to convince the average American with something like "logic". You should know better than that!

 

[L'Eliminateur]

It has to do with three factors.

1. China is involved in rampant IP theft.
2. Several products made in China have had backdoors installed by their military.
3. COVID showed us the fragility of supply lines from there.

It's not just the US. Multiple countries have been advocating this because of 1 and 2 for some time now.

In the end this had to happen. Sorry you have to pay more for electronics oh well. Upgrade less maybe or game at less details.

#2 is bullshit, as several other's said, those 3-letter agencies from the US are FAR more damaging and dangerous.
Just because a company (like huawei) has ties to the chinese military(pray tell me which US company has NO ties to either military or shady 3-letter agencies) does not mean they'll put "mysterious backdoors".
Remember which state had advanced hacking and backdoors installed on Cisco/other gear intercepted enroute, absolutely illegally and morally bankrupt, oh yes, it was the NSA....
Or which one tapped in the private internal network or companies(again, the NSA!) by tapping the fiber links, or worst, mandating "NSA secret rooms" inside companies and force them to move their traffic through there....

Yeah, i rather have my cheap electronics, i don't want nor HAVE to make any "sacrifices" just so some faceles western corpo and their spook friends gets fatter

 

[evernessince]

#2 is bullshit, as several other's said, those 3-letter agencies from the US are FAR more damaging and dangerous.
Just because a company (like huawei) has ties to the chinese military(pray tell me which US company has NO ties to either military or shady 3-letter agencies) does not mean they'll put "mysterious backdoors".
Remember which state had advanced hacking and backdoors installed on Cisco/other gear intercepted enroute, absolutely illegally and morally bankrupt, oh yes, it was the NSA....
Or which one tapped in the private internal network or companies(again, the NSA!) by tapping the fiber links, or worst, mandating "NSA secret rooms" inside companies and force them to move their traffic through there....

Yeah, i rather have my cheap electronics, i don't want nor HAVE to make any "sacrifices" just so some faceles western corpo and their spook friends gets fatter

?? Most US companies have no ties to the US military aside from companies directly involved in producing military gear, goods, vehicles, ect.

And please, China euthanizes it's own citizens, regularly commits humanitarian crisis (they seemingly can't go without brutal crackdowns on civil protests and killing off certain racial ethnicities), and coerces small countries into their bidding among many many others. Just ask any country that's taken part in the Belt and Road initiate.

The US is by far no saint but somehow China manages to make them look good.

IMO the fact that China has yet to strongly denounce the war (and is supplying weapons to Russia by routing them through North Korea) in Ukraine in enough of a reason to cordon them off. That they support autocrats just goes to show you how little the Chinese government represents the Chinese people. The constant repression the Chinese people face is disgusting.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Hard to take many people here seriously when selecting a region in user panel is to tough

 

[Nostras]

Lots of... controversial comments here. As a Dutch person I'm just going to go ahead and say that this is probably a good thing. Unless China backs down with their aggression you have to respond to their aggression with your own aggression. Doing an ostrich is not going to be helpful here as history has shown many times.

I'm saddened that we did this only because the US did so and effectively we had to get coerced (in the nicest way) to do this and that we didn't do it ourselves (or through EU).

Selling technological marvels to China is, imo, the pinnacle of shortsightedness. All to make a penny now for China to eventually start competing in the long run (with state funding).

 

[WorringlyIndifferent]

?? Most US companies have no ties to the US military aside from companies directly involved in producing military gear, goods, vehicles, ect.

And please, China euthanizes it's own citizens, regularly commits humanitarian crisis (they seemingly can't go without brutal crackdowns on civil protests and killing off certain racial ethnicities), and coerces small countries into their bidding among many many others. Just ask any country that's taken part in the Belt and Road initiate.

The US is by far no saint but somehow China manages to make them look good.

IMO the fact that China has yet to strongly denounce the war (and is supplying weapons to Russia by routing them through North Korea) in Ukraine in enough of a reason to cordon them off. That they support autocrats just goes to show you how little the Chinese government represents the Chinese people. The constant repression the Chinese people face is disgusting.

It's funny when it's hard to tell if someone is a shill or just a media zombie. Those are the exact talking points I'd expect to hear from NBC or the New York Times or some other propaganda outlet, and also the exact talking points I'd expect to hear from an FBI/NSA astroturfer.

To be clear, I would *never* want to live in China. Horrible quality of life, and according to every single person I've ever heard of or known who lived there, horrible culture when coming from a western moral viewpoint. Right for them, totally wrong for me. That said, let's see...

China can't euthanize me. China's involvement in humanitarian crises has nothing to do with me. China coercing small countries is 1) identical to what the US does and 2) has nothing to do with me. The fact that you're seriously using the Ukraine/Russia conflict, something that has absolutely nothing to do with me or anyone else in the US bar a few billionaires and corrupt politicians, as a reason for why I should dislike China, is hilarious. America's federal government is openly evil and working against the citizens, we know they spy on us, we know they kill dissidents, we know they dedicate stolen tax dollars to ruining the lives of anyone who expresses doubt against the regime, and we know they openly work against the interests of the public. The federal government, the FBI, the NSA, the CIA, and now even the judicial system is openly corrupted against the public.

In the off chance you're actually just a regular NPC: please, please stop posting. And, if you're a fed agent: I hope that 60k/year salary will be worth it lol

 

[evernessince]

It's funny when it's hard to tell if someone is a shill or just a media zombie. Those are the exact talking points I'd expect to hear from NBC or the New York Times or some other propaganda outlet, and also the exact talking points I'd expect to hear from an FBI/NSA astroturfer.

To be clear, I would *never* want to live in China. Horrible quality of life, and according to every single person I've ever heard of or known who lived there, horrible culture when coming from a western moral viewpoint. Right for them, totally wrong for me. That said, let's see...

China can't euthanize me. China's involvement in humanitarian crises has nothing to do with me. China coercing small countries is 1) identical to what the US does and 2) has nothing to do with me. The fact that you're seriously using the Ukraine/Russia conflict, something that has absolutely nothing to do with me or anyone else in the US bar a few billionaires and corrupt politicians, as a reason for why I should dislike China, is hilarious. America's federal government is openly evil and working against the citizens, we know they spy on us, we know they kill dissidents, we know they dedicate stolen tax dollars to ruining the lives of anyone who expresses doubt against the regime, and we know they openly work against the interests of the public. The federal government, the FBI, the NSA, the CIA, and now even the judicial system is openly corrupted against the public.

In the off chance you're actually just a regular NPC: please, please stop posting. And, if you're a fed agent: I hope that 60k/year salary will be worth it lol

Well given that I don't watch TV and by extensions those channels, perhaps you should spend less time watching them and letting them live rent free in your head eh?

 

[Easo]

a bit too late me thinks

Yeah. It won't be possible to keep down 2nd economy with 1.4 billion people. And I really wanna know what will happen when India starts doing the same, considering their current course.

 

[Denver]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

Talk about yourself. I don't like unsecured disposable garbage, not to mention it's fruit of slave labor.