Intel 13th Gen Support?

[unclewebb]

3DMark CPU Test

If you are seeing a 2,500 point drop during the 3D Mark CPU test then something else is going on. There should be zero difference between Sync MMIO and checking the MMIO Lock box.

Turn on Nvidia GPU monitoring in the Options window and then check the Log File box on the main screen of ThrottleStop. Run the two tests again and then compare the data in the log files. A big drop in performance might be because the CPU is power limit throttling or thermal throttling or as mentioned, maybe the Nvidia GPU is being throttled. Maybe Windows 11 screwed up and sometimes it runs tasks on the E cores when tasks during a benchmark should be running on the P cores.

Make sure Sync MMIO is not checked before switching to Lock MMIO. In theory this should not make any difference but one user reported a problem when he used Lock MMIO with Sync MMIO still checked. You need to reboot to reset the CPU if you have used Lock MMIO.

Attach a log file to your next post. If you are seeing a 15% difference in 3D Mark, the log file should show that either the CPU or Nvidia GPU are not running at the same speed when testing.

 

[raywdude]

If you are seeing a 2,500 point drop during the 3D Mark CPU test then something else is going on. There should be zero difference between Sync MMIO and checking the MMIO Lock box.

Turn on Nvidia GPU monitoring in the Options window and then check the Log File box on the main screen of ThrottleStop. Run the two tests again and then compare the data in the log files. A big drop in performance might be because the CPU is power limit throttling or thermal throttling or as mentioned, maybe the Nvidia GPU is being throttled. Maybe Windows 11 screwed up and sometimes it runs tasks on the E cores when tasks during a benchmark should be running on the P cores.

Make sure Sync MMIO is not checked before switching to Lock MMIO. In theory this should not make any difference but one user reported a problem when he used Lock MMIO with Sync MMIO still checked. You need to reboot to reset the CPU if you have used Lock MMIO.

Attach a log file to your next post. If you are seeing a 15% difference in 3D Mark, the log file should show that either the CPU or Nvidia GPU are not running at the same speed when testing.

I did the tests as requested. Thanks for your help!

3DMark for Sync MMIO: https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/94770276?
3DMark for Lock MMIO: https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/94770499?

 

[unclewebb]

Thanks for your help!

No problem. I am as interested as you are to find out why something is happening that should not be happening.

Both log files show lots of random TVB throttling. It is impossible to get consistent benchmark results if the CPU is being throttled like this. To disable this type of throttling, make sure Thermal Velocity Boost is not checked in the FIVR window. Intel mistakenly calls this boost when it is not. When that box is checked it causes throttling.

The Sync MMIO log shows lots of EDP throttling which can be caused by having the current limits set too low. Can you post screenshots of the main TS window as well as the FIVR and TPL windows so I can see how you have the program setup.

The Lock MMIO log shows the CPU is running much slower at times when it is loaded during this benchmark. This could be a Windows 11 bug where this task is being scheduled on a slower E core and not on one of the fast P cores. This seems to be the main problem.

Fix the TVB throttling and show me some screenshots and I will see if there is any settings in TS that might be able to help the cause. Maybe a tool like Process Lasso might be useful to make sure the benchmark stays running on one of the fast P cores.

 

[raywdude]

No problem. I am as interested as you are to find out why something is happening that should not be happening.

Both log files show lots of random TVB throttling. It is impossible to get consistent benchmark results if the CPU is being throttled like this. To disable this type of throttling, make sure Thermal Velocity Boost is not checked in the FIVR window. Intel mistakenly calls this boost when it is not. When that box is checked it causes throttling.

The Sync MMIO log shows lots of EDP throttling which can be caused by having the current limits set too low. Can you post screenshots of the main TS window as well as the FIVR and TPL windows so I can see how you have the program setup.

The Lock MMIO log shows the CPU is running much slower at times when it is loaded during this benchmark. This could be a Windows 11 bug where this task is being scheduled on a slower E core and not on one of the fast P cores. This seems to be the main problem.

Fix the TVB throttling and show me some screenshots and I will see if there is any settings in TS that might be able to help the cause. Maybe a tool like Process Lasso might be useful to make sure the benchmark stays running on one of the fast P cores.

Disabled TVB. 3DMark results:

Sync MMIO: https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/94773238?
Lock MMIO: https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/94773429?

And attached screenies and logs as requested.

I do not think it's a scheduling issue, I don't see any issues with 13900K on my desktop in the same tests - if there was a scheduling issue, desktop would also be affected right since they're basically the same chip with more power limits. And the 13900HX is clearing working correctly in stock and sync MMIO modes...

Also monitored Task Manager for the CPU Test. Looks normal in both cases to me.

 

[unclewebb]

3D Mark reports the drop in CPU speed when using Lock MMIO. The drop in CPU temperature also confirms the reduced performance.

Checking the Lock MMIO box locks the secondary turbo power limits but it also does a couple of other things. Exactly what it does is a bit of a secret.

I have never tested one feature on a 13th Gen CPU so maybe this feature is causing a problem. I will come up with a new beta version tomorrow with that untested feature removed.

I appreciate all of your testing. If you would like to do another test, check Lock MMIO and then on the main ThrottleStop screen check the High Performance box. This should change to the Windows High Performance power plan. Try running 3D Mark again and see if it reports reduced MHz. When done testing you can use ThrottleStop to switch back to the Balanced power plan.

The 13900K and HX might be very similar but it is likely that there is some hidden Windows setting that tells the HX mobile CPU to favor power savings over maximum performance. On your 13900K computer, are you running the High Performance or Balanced power plan?

You have definitely figured something out. Hopefully some more testing will get to the bottom of things.

 

[raywdude]

3D Mark reports the drop in CPU speed when using Lock MMIO. The drop in CPU temperature also confirms the reduced performance.

View attachment 297773

Checking the Lock MMIO box locks the secondary turbo power limits but it also does a couple of other things. Exactly what it does is a bit of a secret.

I have never tested one feature on a 13th Gen CPU so maybe this feature is causing a problem. I will come up with a new beta version tomorrow with that untested feature removed.

I appreciate all of your testing. If you would like to do another test, check Lock MMIO and then on the main ThrottleStop screen check the High Performance box. This should change to the Windows High Performance power plan. Try running 3D Mark again and see if it reports reduced MHz. When done testing you can use ThrottleStop to switch back to the Balanced power plan.

The 13900K and HX might be very similar but it is likely that there is some hidden Windows setting that tells the HX mobile CPU to favor power savings over maximum performance. On your 13900K computer, are you running the High Performance or Balanced power plan?

You have definitely figured something out. Hopefully some more testing will get to the bottom of things.

Nice catch! Definitely sounds like the "hidden feature(s)" is/are the cause. I'd be happy to try the beta version if given the opportunity. I'm glad we are getting to the bottom of the mystery.

My Desktop 13900K is using Windows Balanced profile, no special tweaks other than VBS disabled just like laptop. Desktop 3DMark performance: https://www.3dmark.com/spy/36164643

Laptop has been and is still using Lenovo's Performance Profile - so I'm not sure forcing High Performance will help there.

 

[unclewebb]

Lenovo's Performance Profile

This profile does not seem to be a true high performance power plan. It should not hurt anything if you use ThrottleStop to run the traditional Windows High Performance power plan.

Your desktop is showing very steady MHz when loaded. This is how things are supposed to be.

 

[raywdude]

This profile does not seem to be a true high performance power plan. It should not hurt anything if you use ThrottleStop to run the traditional Windows High Performance power plan.

Your desktop is showing very steady MHz when loaded. This is how things are supposed to be.

I used the Force High Performance option as requested. Here are the results,

I scored 0 in Time Spy Custom

Intel Core i9-13900HX Processor, NVIDIA RTX 4090 (notebook) x 1, 32768 MB, 64-bit Windows 11}

www.3dmark.com

 

[raywdude]

The issue ended up being some obscure drivers on the laptop: one from Lenovo and another from Intel.

Disabling both fixed the issue.

I definitely lost the silicon lottery though. Even a modest -29.3 mV undervolt ONLY on the Cores...results in resume from sleep or hibernation to randomly freeze. Resetting the undervolt fixed this.

 

[raywdude]

@unclewebb - I have some unfortunate news regarding the Lock MMIO feature on TS 9.6 - I've been noticing that Warm Restarts are no longer working on my laptop after using it. Right after BIOS logo goes away, it just freezes - only way to get out of it is to hold power and force shut-down. Reproducibility rate is 100%.

Remove the "Lock MMIO" and this goes away - Windows boots successfully every single time...

At least on this Lenovo Legion 7i Pro 13900HX laptop it occurs. Latest BIOS, Windows is up to date.

Videos:

- Lock MMIO enabled, warm reboots freeze:

- Lock MMIO disabled, warm reboots work:

I've also tried Sync MMIO again, and that also works - does not prevent warm reboots from working.

Other than this issue, Lock MMIO otherwise works as expected. But, this issue seems critical - let's say a Windows Update needs to restart the PC, and I walk away - I will come back to the screen right after BIOS logo screen and it sits there for hours, fans ramped up.

 

[unclewebb]

Remove the "Lock MMIO" and this goes away

I like Lock MMIO. If it is causing issues on your laptop then do not use it. Continue using Sync MMIO instead. They both accomplish more or less the same thing.

 

[raywdude]

I like Lock MMIO. If it is causing issues on your laptop then do not use it. Continue using Sync MMIO instead. They both accomplish more or less the same thing.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding - I worded that part poorly. What I meant to say (instead of 'remove') is "turn off" or "disable".

I did notice Lock MMIO gives me slightly better performance than Sync MMIO. I presume it's due to the overhead of how Sync works?

 

[unclewebb]

Perhaps when MMIO is locked, the Lenovo power management software is trying to write to the power limit memory location without first checking if that memory location is locked or not. That is all I can think of at the moment.

Lock MMIO is more efficient than Sync MMIO. After something is locked, ThrottleStop never has to check that register or memory location again.

 

[raywdude]

Perhaps when MMIO is locked, the Lenovo power management software is trying to write to the power limit memory location without first checking if that memory location is locked or not. That is all I can think of at the moment.

Lock MMIO is more efficient than Sync MMIO. After something is locked, ThrottleStop never has to check that register or memory location again.

Thanks, that sounds about right. BIOS might be trying to do something to a locked register.

Another (positive) side effect of eliminating the two problematic drivers is: it turns out I did not lose the silicon lottery - the freezes upon resume with any undervolt amount were caused by the two drivers (Intel Innovation Platform Framework and Lenovo Virtual Power Controller Mangement crap). I was able to push -100mv on core + cache with no problems. Prime95'd small FFTs for an hour with AVX on, and off in two separate sessions. I left the E cache voltage alone as that causes Prime95 errors with virtually no performance gain.

 

[unclewebb]

BIOS might be trying to do something to a locked register

After thinking about your crashes when resuming when MMIO Lock is checked, it is possible that there is another driver on your computer that is causing this. The two drivers you found have issues so who knows, perhaps there is a third driver that can also cause problems.

If the MMIO Lock feature was truly bugged, I would think that your computer would instantly crash as soon as you enabled MMIO Lock. Your computer runs fine when this is enabled. If you only crash during a sleep resume cycle, it is most likely something totally unrelated like a bad driver that is causing this.

No point in trying to hunt down what else it might be. Using Sync MMIO should be good enough. You should not be seeing any significant difference in performance when using MMIO Lock vs Sync MMIO. Sure MMIO Lock is a little more efficient but having Sync MMIO enabled is not going to consume a huge number of CPU cycles. The only time there would be a performance loss is if your computer is actively changing the dynamic MMIO power limits more frequently than ThrottleStop is checking and adjusting these limits for any changes.

 

[ProgUn1corn]

Hi unclewebb and raywdude, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who has this problem. I'm running MSI's Creator Z17 HX, it has i9-13950HX. I've encountered freeze after a restart as well, but not always, just ocassionally. I actually don't know that the MMIO option caused it to freeze after a warm restart, but usually I will just long press the power button to force shut down and start again. It happened once with windows update, but it seems that after a force shut down, windows update still works if you just boot it again.

Also, I do not found a difference between Sync MMIO and Lock MMIO, however strangly sometimes I checked lock MMIO, the power limit is still overridden by something else. My TPL are set like this, but once it stucked at 65w at PL1 was flashing red, even in TPL window it is not 65w. The only thing I know is that MSI's crappy software will limit to 65w at balance mode, but I haven't used that for a long time. But when checking Sync MMIO, this didn't happen once. Probably just some random thing that is out of Throttlestop's control.

Probably a little bit off-topic, I'm using this laptop mainly for music production, but I also noticed something very strange. On my 11800H, as usually I unchecked C1E, set Speed Shift EPP to 0 and set everything to maximum like in picture, that worked perfectly fine. However on my 13950HX, which has much higher clock speed and significantly more cores, it's actually worse as there are pops and cracks all the time, mostly when the DAW is running in background. Soon I've noticed that not only DAW, anything that plays a sound like Youtube is the same. It will start to crack after switched to background, almost immediately, but perfectly fine in foreground. Switching to Windows's balance profile, at set EPP to 128 solved the issue strangly...I guess it's some scheduler thing that Windows 11 messed up?

Also tried to limit the cores my DAW can use, I strictly set it to CPU0~7, which are all the P cores but things are getting worse. Very strange though.

 

[raywdude]

After thinking about your crashes when resuming when MMIO Lock is checked, it is possible that there is another driver on your computer that is causing this. The two drivers you found have issues so who knows, perhaps there is a third driver that can also cause problems.

If the MMIO Lock feature was truly bugged, I would think that your computer would instantly crash as soon as you enabled MMIO Lock. Your computer runs fine when this is enabled. If you only crash during a sleep resume cycle, it is most likely something totally unrelated like a bad driver that is causing this.

No point in trying to hunt down what else it might be. Using Sync MMIO should be good enough. You should not be seeing any significant difference in performance when using MMIO Lock vs Sync MMIO. Sure MMIO Lock is a little more efficient but having Sync MMIO enabled is not going to consume a huge number of CPU cycles. The only time there would be a performance loss is if your computer is actively changing the dynamic MMIO power limits more frequently than ThrottleStop is checking and adjusting these limits for any changes.

I think you're right - I once again tried booting up my handy portable USB Windows and set it up the same way, MMIO Lock, Undervolt - no issues with hot reboots or sleep/resume freezing. The hot reboot freezing after BIOS splash screen, I think I nailed down to the rest of the Intel Innovation Platform Framework drivers - disabling the remaining ones, made the reboot freeze go away. As for the sleep/resume, I could not figure out which exact driver it is though.

But, I did find a "workaround" that removes the need to use MMIO Lock - there is a strange little BIOS option: "CPU performance mode" - it was set to "Normal" by default. The other option is "Extreme". Setting it to "Extreme" made the CPU PL1 PL2 stable at 140/190 no matter how many times I unplug or replug power adapter. Effectively a built in lock for the PL values.

 

[raywdude]

Hi unclewebb and raywdude, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who has this problem. I'm running MSI's Creator Z17 HX, it has i9-13950HX. I've encountered freeze after a restart as well, but not always, just ocassionally. I actually don't know that the MMIO option caused it to freeze after a warm restart, but usually I will just long press the power button to force shut down and start again. It happened once with windows update, but it seems that after a force shut down, windows update still works if you just boot it again.

Also, I do not found a difference between Sync MMIO and Lock MMIO, however strangly sometimes I checked lock MMIO, the power limit is still overridden by something else. My TPL are set like this, but once it stucked at 65w at PL1 was flashing red, even in TPL window it is not 65w. The only thing I know is that MSI's crappy software will limit to 65w at balance mode, but I haven't used that for a long time. But when checking Sync MMIO, this didn't happen once. Probably just some random thing that is out of Throttlestop's control.
View attachment 300370
Probably a little bit off-topic, I'm using this laptop mainly for music production, but I also noticed something very strange. On my 11800H, as usually I unchecked C1E, set Speed Shift EPP to 0 and set everything to maximum like in picture, that worked perfectly fine. However on my 13950HX, which has much higher clock speed and significantly more cores, it's actually worse as there are pops and cracks all the time, mostly when the DAW is running in background. Soon I've noticed that not only DAW, anything that plays a sound like Youtube is the same. It will start to crack after switched to background, almost immediately, but perfectly fine in foreground. Switching to Windows's balance profile, at set EPP to 128 solved the issue strangly...I guess it's some scheduler thing that Windows 11 messed up?
View attachment 300371
Also tried to limit the cores my DAW can use, I strictly set it to CPU0~7, which are all the P cores but things are getting worse. Very strange though.

If you have Intel Dynamic Tuning Technology or Intel Innovation Platform Framework drivers, those are probably the culprit on your machine, if not another OEM specific one in addition to that.

 

[ProgUn1corn]

If you have Intel Dynamic Tuning Technology or Intel Innovation Platform Framework drivers, those are probably the culprit on your machine, if not another OEM specific one in addition to that.

I have not installed those since I did a fresh install of windows when I get the laptop. It will limit the performance by a lot for whatever sound or thermal reason. That could be hardware too since I'm using thunderbolt audio interface, maybe it's just not as good because it only has one controller and I'm using 2 ports at the same time. My old Z16 has 2 seperate controllers.

 

[papericeheart]

Maybe it's not your setting problem, the CPU performance scheduling of each version of Lenovo legion pro7i bios is different
32ww has the best performance, 35ww & 36ww have the worst performance, but very stable
I don’t know if you have noticed that when your CPU and GPU combined exceed 230w, it will use your battery. 35ww&36ww is to solve this problem as much as possible, so the relative performance is very conservative

 

[NoxanTG]

I am glad to encounter the recent conversations on this topic. I would like to share my experiences as well.
I have an Alienware M16 laptop with 13900HX CPU and I am also using the latest TS version to undervolt my laptop.
While testing the options in TS, I realized that locking MMIO option produces errors in Windows Event Viewer each second. The error description says the IPF driver is problematic and delayed a huge amount of time in ms. Clearly, there is a clash between IPF and TS setting Power limits.
Additionally, I am unable to shut down my computer completely when I select Lock MMIO option. It shows the same behavior as what you called warm restart. I found the culprit after reading your replies. I was restarting and pressing power button when POST screen shows to turn off my computer.
I am also having pops and crackles in games or while watching videos on web browser and I am wondering if this happens because of intel tuning drivers. I think we need to get rid of intel drivers to tune our laptops with TS properly.

 

[unclewebb]

there is a clash between IPF and TS setting Power limits.

My best guess is that the IPF driver is not very happy after the ThrottleStop MMIO Lock option locks out the power limit memory location. The IPF driver might not be checking whether this memory location is locked or not. If something is locked, driver software should never try to write anything to a locked memory location. It might be reporting an error to Windows Event Viewer if trying to change this power limit no longer accomplishes anything.

Because of this conflict you are forced to choose. If you want to continue to use the IPF driver then do not check the MMIO Lock box. If you want to use the MMIO Lock feature, you need to prevent the IPF driver from running.

I am also having pops and crackles in games or while watching videos on web browser

Problems like this can be difficult to track down. Do you get pops and crackles after rebooting? Does this happen if ThrottleStop is never started? Have you tried running Latency Mon? Perhaps it can help you find some badly behaving drivers.

Resplendence Software - LatencyMon: suitability checker for real-time audio and other tasks

LatencyMon: suitability checker for real-time audio and other tasks

www.resplendence.com

 

[raywdude]

My best guess is that the IPF driver is not very happy after the ThrottleStop MMIO Lock option locks out the power limit memory location. The IPF driver might not be checking whether this memory location is locked or not. If something is locked, driver software should never try to write anything to a locked memory location. It might be reporting an error to Windows Event Viewer if trying to change this power limit no longer accomplishes anything.

Because of this conflict you are forced to choose. If you want to continue to use the IPF driver then do not check the MMIO Lock box. If you want to use the MMIO Lock feature, you need to prevent the IPF driver from running.

The IPF driver causes other issues too - even without TS, in combined CPU+GPU workloads, it randomly limits the CPU to 80W when the cooling and VRMs can handle more. Disabling IPF also lets combined workloads do 150W GPU + 115W CPU. So, thanks Intel! Can't really think of any downsides for disabling IPF other than potentially, the computer might run warmer due to, more power draw in those situations?

Battery life wise, will be impacted if you keep running CPU intensive workloads, since it lets the CPU run at the original PL1 level rather than dynamically adjusted to 45-65W. But if you don't, the battery life differences are minimal. What IS nice is responsiveness - disabling IPF and letting the CPU stretch its legs makes the PC much more snappy to use on battery power even when you don't throw Prime95 or Cinebench at it.

The weird part about all this is, how the interaction between IPF and Lock MMIO affects whether reboots work or not...

Maybe Uncle Kevin can spin up IDA and look around the drivers

Lenovo Energy Management / Lenovo ACPI-Compliant Virtual Power Controller: https://download.lenovo.com/consumer/mobiles/wwe00mae40.exe
Intel Dynamic Platform and Thermal Framework (DPTF) Driver / Intel Innovation Platform Framework Driver: https://download.lenovo.com/consumer/mobiles/lqy7017f1g8by6f0.exe

Otherwise, my current workaround is to go to Regedit: System/CurrentControlSet/Services/ACPIVPC - change Start to 4, and repeat the same for all the IPF stuff.

Can't straight uninstall them, because the system will find a way to re-install them back. I believe Windows Update will also install them as well (at least the Intel drivers), eventually.

 

[Zupo Llask]

It will start to crack after switched to background, almost immediately, but perfectly fine in foreground. Switching to Windows's balance profile, at set EPP to 128 solved the issue strangly...I guess it's some scheduler thing that Windows 11 messed up?

This looks very much alike the description of Thread Director 2 technology working (as expected) on Windows 11. Maybe you'll want to research a bit about that...

 

[raywdude]

This looks very much alike the description of Thread Director 2 technology working (as expected) on Windows 11. Maybe you'll want to research a bit about that...

Great catch! Sounds about right to me as well.

To disable this behavior for a specific program, run the following command in an elevated command prompt:

powercfg /powerthrottling disable /path "C:\Program Files (x86)\VMware\VMware Workstation\x64\vmware-vmx.exe"

Replace the app path with the affected app.

In my case VMware was being pinned to only the E cores since desktop 12900k. This fixes it for both desktop and laptops 12th and 13th gen.