Intel 13th Gen Support?

[Zupo Llask]

Battery life wise, will be impacted if you keep running CPU intensive workloads, since it lets the CPU run at the original PL1 level rather than dynamically adjusted to 45-65W. But if you don't, the battery life differences are minimal.

OK... You came up with an awful lot of useful information in your latest posts, but I'm not sure I'm following (my bad).

First of all, you are referring to your new Lenovo Legion Pro 7i with 13900HX, right? I've also bought one, but my goal at this point is trying to domesticate it when I want to use it with light load on battery. It doesn't make sense that a modern laptop with 100Wh battery is unable to provide a battery life of at least 10 hours using IGP + Wi-Fi, if you are willing to constraint yourself performance wise. I know this sounds illogical to many people when we are talking about Legion Pro 7i, but this way you get sort of the best of 2 worlds: a powerful workstation on brick power; a decent (heavy weight) laptop on battery power, prepared to delivery a punch if needed. Subjective choices, I guess!

Getting back to your post:
- What do you mean by "original PL1 level"? MSR levels (140/190)?
- In that scenario (MSR levels), can't you restore those 45/65 dynamic levels through Throttlestop MSR/MMIO configurations?

Sorry, but I'm an old school overclocker trying to get up to speed with these latest CPU generations, Intel/Lenovo/power plan mess (that I understand and accept, in the sense that you - as a CPU manufacturer - want to give OEM the freedom to model the behavior they want, but I want to override to a point) and ThrottleStop itself.

 

[raywdude]

OK... You came up with an awful lot of useful information in your latest posts, but I'm not sure I'm following (my bad).

First of all, you are referring to your new Lenovo Legion Pro 7i with 13900HX, right? I've also bought one, but my goal at this point is trying to domesticate it when I want to use it with light load on battery. It doesn't make sense that a modern laptop with 100Wh battery is unable to provide a battery life of at least 10 hours using IGP + Wi-Fi, if you are willing to constraint yourself performance wise. I know this sounds illogical to many people when we are talking about Legion Pro 7i, but this way you get sort of the best of 2 worlds: a powerful workstation on brick power; a decent (heavy weight) laptop on battery power, prepared to delivery a punch if needed. Subjective choices, I guess!

Getting back to your post:
- What do you mean by "original PL1 level"? MSR levels (140/190)?
- In that scenario (MSR levels), can't you restore those 45/65 dynamic levels through Throttlestop MSR/MMIO configurations?

Sorry, but I'm an old school overclocker trying to get up to speed with these latest CPU generations, Intel/Lenovo/power plan mess (that I understand and accept, in the sense that you - as a CPU manufacturer - want to give OEM the freedom to model the behavior they want, but I want to override to a point) and ThrottleStop itself.

You can restore the values manually using ThrottleStop for sure but you'll have to do it manually. Unfortunately ThrottleStop currently doesn't support per profile power values yet. That would need to be a feature request...

 

[ProgUn1corn]

After some troubleshooting, I found it's actually the very basic problem. It's a bad cable! I was using a cheap USB4 cable that should compatible with Thunderbolt 3, and turns out that cable only has 20gbps of bandwith and there's something bad. I switched to an old Thunderbolt 3 cable, all pops and cracks immediately went away. Sometimes these problems are in basic things that we tend to ignore.

Thread Director 2

Thank you, I will check that

I am also having pops and crackles in games or while watching videos on web browser and I am wondering if this happens because of intel tuning drivers. I think we need to get rid of intel drivers to tune our laptops with TS properly.

If you are using audio interface, no matter USB or Thunderbolt, check the cable first, and then check USB selective suspend is on or off, and power management in device manager. If you are not using audio interface, I think there are some general tips like set speedshift to 0, or disable C1E may help. Another thing to check is DPC latency, from what i observed 13th gen Intel laptops all have pretty bad DPC latency performance. I know that Dell has a very bad reputation of this on their XPS line, maybe that could be the reason.

 

[ProgUn1corn]

You can restore the values manually using ThrottleStop for sure but you'll have to do it manually. Unfortunately ThrottleStop currently doesn't support per profile power values yet. That would need to be a feature request...

Yeah, I would love to see that feature. For now on my unlocked laptops, I can set turbo clock speed limits to limit the power, but it's not a better solution than set the power limit, let OS and CPU schedule clock speed. On my locked laptops however, for example a Surface Pro 8 with i5-1135G7, I can not set anything to make different power profiles. When plugged in, I would like it to use 20-30w of full CPU power, however when grabbing on my hands I would like it to use no more than 7-8w, as it's sufficient for tablet use like watching videos. It's using 10w+ now and a bit warm, sometimes hot on my hands. My Surface Go 3 with Pentium runs at 4-5w and it's totally snappy, there's no way i5-1135G7 can't be snappy at 5w.

 

[raywdude]

Yeah, I would love to see that feature. For now on my unlocked laptops, I can set turbo clock speed limits to limit the power, but it's not a better solution than set the power limit, let OS and CPU schedule clock speed. On my locked laptops however, for example a Surface Pro 8 with i5-1135G7, I can not set anything to make different power profiles. When plugged in, I would like it to use 20-30w of full CPU power, however when grabbing on my hands I would like it to use no more than 7-8w, as it's sufficient for tablet use like watching videos. It's using 10w+ now and a bit warm, sometimes hot on my hands. My Surface Go 3 with Pentium runs at 4-5w and it's totally snappy, there's no way i5-1135G7 can't be snappy at 5w.

You can totally scale down those silicon because of the fact that they have less stuff to power in the first place. The 13900HX however is literally the same silicon as the Desktop 13900K with a significantly lower power limit. So the power floor is going to be higher than traditional mobile chips. I've not seen anything that can substantially boost low usage battery performance on these Desktop chips-juryrigged-into-laptop chips...

This is why even compared to the "H" series like the 13900H, the 13900HX has way worse battery life. The "H" series is still a true laptop CPU, while "HX" is really a desktop CPU.

 

[ProgUn1corn]

You can totally scale down those silicon because of the fact that they have less stuff to power in the first place. The 13900HX however is literally the same silicon as the Desktop 13900K with a significantly lower power limit. So the power floor is going to be higher than traditional mobile chips. I've not seen anything that can substantially boost low usage battery performance on these Desktop chips-juryrigged-into-laptop chips...

This is why even compared to the "H" series like the 13900H, the 13900HX has way worse battery life. The "H" series is still a true laptop CPU, while "HX" is really a desktop CPU.

I'm not thinking to use 5w of HX chip, just thinking if you can limit it to 45w in games to get less heat. However on my Surface I really want to use low power though

 

[Hunel]

I have the i7 13700 processor, I can't undervolt.
Is it because my processor is not "k" series because I can't undervolt?

 

[unclewebb]

i7 13700

Post a screenshot of the ThrottleStop FIVR window? Does it show Not Available? Did you disable VBS?

Undervolting might be limited to the K and mobile HX processors.

 

[raywdude]

Oh yeah...I tried TS 9.6 on my desktop 13900K as well with Asus z690 board and it works with adjusting power limits, but undervolting the core voltage does not work there for some reason. However the P Cache voltage does work. Just did it for curiosity sake. I know I lost the silicon lottery on desktop side because even a 50 mV undervolt on the cores using bios or xtu results in instant bsod of prime95

 

[Hunel]

ThrottleStop FIVR window:

Post a screenshot of the ThrottleStop FIVR window? Does it show Not Available? Did you disable VBS?

Undervolting might be limited to the K and mobile HX processors.

ThrottleStop FIVR window:

 

[unclewebb]

FIVR voltage control is not available on your CPU.

Intel removed this useful feature from the majority of their CPUs.

but undervolting the core voltage does not work

On desktop boards, sometimes you have to enable SVID support in the BIOS or something similar to that. That should allow FIVR voltage control to work properly as long as Undervolt Protection is not enabled and VBS is disabled. Intel makes it a fun game trying to undervolt their CPUs.

 

[EsliteMoby]

I had previously set an undervolt of -80mv in the ASUS bios on my laptop. Do I need to disable any undervolt on the bios before I use ThrottleStop for undervolting?

 

[unclewebb]

I would use one or the other but not both.

 

[elchasser]

Is there anything anyone would suggest I do to refine my settings? Lenovo Legion Pro 7i, 13900HX/RTX4080. It would show thermal throttling in HWiNFO when opening time spy and some steam games (civ6, AOE4, FO4,nothing crazy). No thermal issues now and the benchmark scores improved quite a bit.
I also attached some screenshots of my change/score logs that might be of interest if anyone wants to see how some of the settings change performance.

 

[TheNaitsyrk]

Does anyone know why I can't adjust little cores in Throttle stop on my MSI Titan? The first row says 40 and then in the cores columns it says 16, any other row below say 0 and 0.

P cores can be adjusted as normal.

Any ideas?

 

[unclewebb]

@TheNaitsyrk
Post a screenshot of the FIVR window.

Are you using ThrottleStop 9.6?

Can you change the 40 value?

Did you disable VBS?

 

[TheNaitsyrk]

@TheNaitsyrk
Post a screenshot of the FIVR window.

Are you using ThrottleStop 9.6?

Can you change the 40 value?

Did you disable VBS?

I can change the 40 value and I can even change any values in core group and ratios anywhere, but nothing is applying.

What do you mean by VBS?

 

[unclewebb]

What do you mean by VBS?

Windows 11 Virtualization Based Security. Core isolation memory integrity and a few other Windows 11 features that use virtualization need to all be disabled if you want ThrottleStop to work correctly. There is a link in my signature that shows some of the things that need to be disabled.

How to Disable Virtualization-Based Security (VBS) in Windows 11 to Improve Gaming

Getting frame drops while playing games in Windows 11? VBS might be the reason and here's how you can disable VBS in Windows 11.

beebom.com

All of the 0.0391 voltage values in the monitoring table are telling me that VBS is not fully disabled. That might be why the E core multiplier is not working correctly.

After you disable VBS, I would recommend rebooting and deleting the ThrottleStop.INI configuration file. Post an updated FIVR screenshot after you do this.

If you need to use WSL2, you will not be able to fully use ThrottleStop. Some items might still work correctly. Many of the FIVR items will not work correctly when VBS or anything VBS related is enabled.

 

[Lindstroem]

Tried to read through the comments in terms of 13700H undervolting possibilities as I’ve ordered and will receive a Lenovo laptop with 13705H tomorrow.

I belong to the tribe that prioritizes a cool and silent laptop instead of squeezing out max performance and Throttestop has been a great help before.

Am I correct in assuming that 13700H is a no-go for throttlestop or are some settings available? Just being able to adjust the total power budget (for instance cap it at 30W) would be of great help, rather than disabling boost (as that might hinder single core performance).

I welcome any thoughts on the matter

 

[focus-_-]

Greetings to all. I'm the owner of a laptop with 13500H, undervolting isn't available. The only options available to me are Speed Shift and Power Limit Controls. But even Speed Shift doesn't seem to be an option for me. I have Windows 11 and I don't understand how I can set my own Speed Shift EPP value. According to ThrottleStop, it is always 128 for me, regardless of changing Power Plan and Power Mode. Has anyone already figured this out? Is it possible to do something about this?

I need this for more flexible control over the capabilities of the processor. Atm, I've set limits to PL1 and PL2. This approach doesn't suit me: although the processor isn't very hot in games, I lose performance in various applications. I would like to change the consumption limits in one action.

If nothing can be done about SST, then it would be great if profiles for TPL appeared in TS.

 

[unclewebb]

13700H undervolting possibilities

There are no possibilities. Intel has removed the undervolting feature from the H series CPUs.

it is always 128 for me

Speed Shift EPP may not work correctly on newer CPUs or in Windows 11. Without access to any new hardware, this part of ThrottleStop has not been updated.

it would be great if profiles for TPL appeared in TS.

Maybe someday.

 

[TheNaitsyrk]

Still having issues overclocking the E-cores. I have disabled anything that is related to virtualization but E cores are still locked to 40. Is there something else I should be looking at

 

[unclewebb]

overclocking the E-cores

Try checking the Overclock box on the right hand side in the FIVR window.

Try pressing the All Core 41 button.

The sad part is I have had to develop ThrottleStop without ever having used a 12th or 13th Gen CPU. I am always surprised that ThrottleStop works as well as it does. Imagine what I could accomplish with Intel's full documentation and some modern hardware to play with. There are some features in ThrottleStop that have never been properly tested. Some things might not work as I imagined.

Hopefully someone else can reply if they have been able to successfully overclock the E cores or not overclock them.

 

[TheNaitsyrk]

Try checking the Overclock box on the right hand side in the FIVR window.

Try pressing the All Core 41 button.

The sad part is I have had to develop ThrottleStop without ever having used a 12th or 13th Gen CPU. I am always surprised that ThrottleStop works as well as it does. Imagine what I could accomplish with Intel's full documentation and some modern hardware to play with. There are some features in ThrottleStop that have never been properly tested. Some things might not work as I imagined.

Hopefully someone else can reply if they have been able to successfully overclock the E cores or not overclock them.

I really appreciate what you did for the overclocking community. I feel like we should make gofundme for you to try the new stuff

Try checking the Overclock box on the right hand side in the FIVR window.

Try pressing the All Core 41 button.

The sad part is I have had to develop ThrottleStop without ever having used a 12th or 13th Gen CPU. I am always surprised that ThrottleStop works as well as it does. Imagine what I could accomplish with Intel's full documentation and some modern hardware to play with. There are some features in ThrottleStop that have never been properly tested. Some things might not work as I imagined.

Hopefully someone else can reply if they have been able to successfully overclock the E cores or not overclock them.

I may have found something that looks like it may allow OC for those cores?

Very deep within turbo section

Update: for anyone interested

I managed to do it. In BIOS you have to go to Turbo settings and change the 40 to any other value e.g. 41. It will then apply for real in the OS, and that will unlock Throttlestop from adjusting the cores. Undervolting also works fine for everything, which makes TS fully functional for MSI Titan 2023.

Also, don't forget to set maximum OC in Overclocking section to maximum values you want the laptop to OC. It's a precaution like a security thing that if you set 53 to all cores, even OCing past that in TS will not let you OC over.

Hope this helps!

Been getting some pretty nutty scores.

Could you tell me what power limit did you have set in TS to get 38000? I managed to get my voltages super low and it's stable, E cores are all at 4.1Ghz tho, normally -155 is stable at stock for E cores

 

[Tyler-98-W68]

It's been a while since I've used TS, but have used and supported it for years. New laptop and not really a new issue but here's the pictures to show what I'm dealing with.
MSI Stealth 15m A13FV
i9 13900H
RTX 4060

I'm not interested in undervolting
The issue is 2 different "dynamic" PL1 and PL2 limits when the GPU/CPU are stressed.

This happens in a few situations.

1. In Discrete mode & Hybrid Graphics mode When only the CPU is stressed it won't hit its PL1 130w limit, It will only do this in Integrated graphics mode (This laptop has MUX)
2. When in integrated graphics mode the CPU will hit the 130W limit for a bit then slightly thermal throttle.
3. When I stress the CPU + GPU in either Hybrid or Discrete graphics mode, the PL1 Dynamic Drops to 45w and the PL2 Dynamic Drops to 65w

Obviously situation 3 is less than ideal as there is tons of thermal headroom

1st video shows the ideal power limits using integrated graphics mode

2nd video shows the slightly lower limits in Discrete mode

3rd video shows the behavior when GPU CPU get loaded. Ignore the 25W Power limit as that has only come up since I plugged a monitor in to the USB-C port for additional monitoring.

I understand HWinfo reports things a bit different from throttlestop



Dynamic PL1 45w PL2 65w

My laptop does have the MSI advanced BIOS where I can configure 5 million things that I have no business doing but there is extensive TDP limit control. What would I be looking for in throttlestop to possibly change these dynamic values a bit higher? I'm not looking for anything crazy, really maybe going to 55w PL1 and 75W Pl2.

One last part of the equation. laptop has a 180w power adapter and I can already get peaks well above that of around 220w and then settling back to right around 180w. Maybe that is part of the issue. I have ordered a 240w adapter to remove this possible limitation.

Thanks for the great software.