Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[mb194dc]

Love the footnote. It shows you the agenda

This article was amended on 5 June 2023 to describe lithium-ion batteries as lasting “upwards of 10 years”, rather than “about 10 years”; and to clarify that the figures released by Volvo claimed that greenhouse gas emissions during production of an electric car are “nearly 70% higher”, not “70% higher”. It was further amended on 7 June 2023 to remove an incorrect reference to the production of lithium-ion batteries needing “many rare earth metals”; to clarify that a reference to “trucks” should instead have been to “heavy trucks for long distance haulage”; and to more accurately refer to the use of such batteries in these trucks as being a “concern”, due to weight issues, rather than a “non-starter”.

• Rowan Atkinson is an actor, comedian and writer

Pure EVs are a technical and practical dead end in my view. No idea how the idea they're suitable for mass adoption has been able to proliferate.

For a small minority of use cases and home setups they're viable, thats it though.

H2 Electric is a much better solution.

 

[KrazyT]

No idea how the idea they're suitable for mass adoption has been able to proliferate.

'cause it's work, and already here.
Maybe it's just a transition, maybe in the next year we will have H2 cars, "clean" fuel to use with combustion engine, EV with "greener" batteries ...
Govs' here in EU decided to heavily reduce the CO2 amount / new car, so the easiest and already here solution is the EV.

 

[Waldorf]

love to see how many think about how viable something is, based on their use/location.
just because 2 or 3 countries drive +200mls to their job etc, doesnt mean 7B ppl on this planet do as well.

many seem to ignore the fact that zero emissions (from the vehicles) does NOT equal zero emissions,
which usually means a Prius is less "green" in overall impact on the planet than most V8 pickup trucks.

one major reason virtually no german car maker was doing hybrid/ev stuff when asian brands did,
was the fact that fuel burning engines had not "peaked" in efficiency.

as long as we dont make all the "stuff" (no matter what it actually is) used for powering non-fuel burning cars from solar/wind/water,
its less green than fuel cars, and that's without counting the impact from making those things in the first place (like solar panels/storage for energy etc)

not sure what reasons Toyota has, as "you" only change what your doing because you hit a "wall" (cost outweighs benefit),
or spare change, especially since german brands messed with it about 20y ago, and didnt carry on.
Toyota is good for working on certain tech, but never really making the most out of it.
ignoring the price (and driving perf.) for a moment, a prius hybrid is worse in every aspect than a Porsche 918 Spyder.
(more than) 5 times less HP, more emissions, less mpg..

but what really gets me: all the important things on cars (as in features to save "lives), were invented in germany/europe.
so much for their interest in you as a driver returning (after a crash), to buy a "new" car.

 

[KrazyT]

ignoring the price (and driving perf.) for a moment, a prius hybrid is worse in every aspect than a Porsche 918 Spyder.
(more than) 5 times less HP, more emissions, less mpg..

are you really sure of that ?
less mpg, means less liter / km right ?
give me the numbers ...

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

are you really sure of that ?
less mpg, means less liter / km right ?
give me the numbers ...

PHEV, so it depends on usage. Even more so than a parallel hybrid like the Prius.

a prius hybrid is worse in every aspect than a Porsche 918 Spyder

Less seats

 

[gurusmi]

A german car association calculated that everything powered by a normally charged battery (no recuperation) on a normal wall plug powered by a electrical company exhausts double the C=2 than an eqally sized and powered Diesel car. Additionally all the nature in africa and i.e. the Atacama desert is smashed into the ground for the needed base material. The groundwater level at the atacama desert was lowered by at least 10m only by digging for Lithium. Right now at the actual level of technics all cars with a battery for the drive drain is ony greenwashing.

 

[..0]

it takes way too much energy to create hydrogen and compress it.
it is not a viable new thing. it must be abandoned.
cars in it self is also a problem, but now i am making too much sense and thinking to big picture, we can not have that so i shut up now.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Additionally all the nature in africa and i.e. the Atacama desert

Atacama is situated in South America. Please, use uppercases for names of continents.

 

[KLiKzg]

I guess those media heists & woke movement would seize, when in 1~2y time Na-ion gets pulled out of the sea?!

Oh no, then they will advocate that using more Na from sea (oceans), would lower the salinity (& acidity) of oceans...which would react negatively to "marine life" - even though that would make the Coral reef flourish with less salinity & acidity.

 

[gurusmi]

Atacama is situated in South America. Please, use uppercases for names of continents.

Atacama is a part of (if i remember my school time in the 70'ies and early 80'ies correct) Argentina, Bolivia and Chiie. Between the Pacidic and the Anden mountains. I know a bit more than that. I.e. why it is the dryest area al owver the world. I don't know where you have been in school. I sat in the western south Germany in school. When i was round about 14 yrs old i had to learn all the continents their states and also all the capitals. What landscapes make them unique what political systems they had implemented etc. So yes. I know where the Atacama desert is located. If you would have read my lines mire correctly you would have realized that i said "in africa and i.e. the Atacama". That small "and" in between could have told you that i didn't mix up both. But you had to focus on small first letters of names. Pashalusta. Paka.

 

[Waldorf]

@Count von Schwalbe
while true, i have no kids (i know of), so not deciding thing for me

@TumbleGeorge
ignoring for a moment that your post didnt add anything to the conversation (your neither admin nor mod or staff),
but the last time i checked, i didnt see this being a requirement for posting here.

i personally dont care about any capital letters when im online, as im not in school nor at work, nor getting paid for it,
and anyone having the space between the ears working, should have no trouble reading it.

i personally like to leave the telling-others-what-to-do stuff, to someones parents/grandparents/partners and first responders like police.

 

[Vayra86]

PHEV, so it depends on usage. Even more so than a parallel hybrid like the Prius.


Less seats

Is there a cup holder even?

Pure EVs are a technical and practical dead end in my view. No idea how the idea they're suitable for mass adoption has been able to proliferate.

For a small minority of use cases and home setups they're viable, thats it though.

H2 Electric is a much better solution.

I got that idea Its funny to me to see the major differences between people on that subject. I don't disagree with you - I don't believe we need an EV for everything.

If we want a real transition we need more specialized tools for transport. The best method for each purpose. The ICE was a catch all, and specialization happened within the world of the ICE. I believe expanding that view beyond the ICE is the first step. So sure, the EV in its current form isn't the way it'll be forever, nor for everyone. I fully accept that. And at the same time, I see the advantages of these cars driving one myself.

My set of conditions:
- own driveway with charge point
- leased car
- work commute about 120 KM/day (60+60)
- solar panels on roof
- charge point density in country is perfect (Netherlands)

Nederland Elektrisch - Charging infrastucture

nederlandelektrisch.nl

You have to imagine that a large portion of the world population lives in areas similar to mine wrt population density and commute. They can all make it happen perfectly fine with a 420km WLTP ranged car like the ID3 I'm driving rn - it gives a worst case scenario range of 250km (winter tyres, wind/rain, >120km/h) so you can easily get 300km out of it in all other cases. In summer now I have 330km calculated range based on highway drives at 136km/h. The only time I switch is for car holiday, simply because I don't want to have the hassle of finding charge points abroad, which isn't quite as simple as it is here. But with sufficient planning, even that would be possible now. I did do a trip on ferry to Scotland with the ID3 a few months back... decided to take a risk and delay charging until I was in the Netherlands again. Finally found my charger with a mere 20km on the battery YOLO versus range anxiety, the former wins

And overall, EVs are just a lot more no nonsense in their whole aesthetic, the ID3 cabin is pretty much empty save from a touchscreen and some essentials. No christmas tree of buttons and lights, the center console is storage, cup holder and high power USB charge/connect point. All the carry-overs from the ICE (E Golf etc) are sub par and feel out of place, too, as there are some left, like lighting and side mirror controls. If you touch those for a moment you feel like you're back in that ICE. That said - touch for everything in a car isn't something I would prefer; they really need a better solution to use that screen, like a joystick or directional pad that is seen elsewhere - at least something physical you can use blindly. Never quite understood why high NCAP rated cars are even allowed to have touch tbh, with all of its lag its horrible to use while driving. Maybe thats the point

The most important environmental advantage of EVs in high population density areas, IMHO, is that car pollution is removed from those population hubs. It is much, much more sensible to relocate that to the factories that create the vehicles and the plants that generate the power. That advantage would count for any battery powered / zero emission car. This is also the primary argument to kill off the Diesel. We're looking at a massive, multi faceted challenge wrt transport and climate, no single solution is gonna tick all the boxes.

 

[Shrek]

a prius hybrid is worse in every aspect than a Porsche 918 Spyder.
(more than) 5 times less HP, more emissions, less mpg..

The Prius gets less mpg?

 

[shoskunk]

I am amazed at this technical thought of double wasting energy.

Like, how a magneto system works? Or, like, how a lot of cars have two sources of power which rely on each other to perform all vehicle functions reliably?

Understanding your post comes across like a troll/mock, I'm not sure it contains any actual substance.

Like posting for count instead of quality..

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Like, how a magneto system works? Or, like, how a lot of cars have two sources of power which rely on each other to perform all vehicle functions reliably?

Understanding your post comes across like a troll/mock, I'm not sure it contains any actual substance.

Like posting for count instead of quality..

The similitude blurs the view. I'm not good with words. Therefore, I will limit myself to the fact that for me things that look similar are not always the same. Comparing and wanting to use them in a uniform way, which for one method is an advantage, for the other is a disadvantage.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Like..an electrolysis carburetor. Then you're just carrying around a tank of water..

Please clarify where the power for electrolysis comes from, in light of the law of conservation of energy.

 

[defaultluser]

A german car association calculated that everything powered by a normally charged battery (no recuperation) on a normal wall plug powered by a electrical company exhausts double the C=2 than an eqally sized and powered Diesel car. Additionally all the nature in africa and i.e. the Atacama desert is smashed into the ground for the needed base material. The groundwater level at the atacama desert was lowered by at least 10m only by digging for Lithium. Right now at the actual level of technics all cars with a battery for the drive drain is ony greenwashing.

what about future techs that Tesla and ford are both embracing?

while iron phosphate doesn't remove lithium entirely from the chemistry, it gets rid of much more expensive nickle, plus the similar environment-destroying cobalt mining:

The Environmental Impacts of Cobalt Mining in Congo | Earth.Org

As demand for cobalt has skyrocketed over the last few decades, it is Congo, home to most of Earth’s cobalt reserves.

earth.org

They have a lot of room for growth in the fairly new chemistry - in only 5 years of mass-production in china-alone , they bumped capacity by 10 percent while lowering costs of the new model 3 highland refresh! you cant do anything near that much improvement with fuel cells! its going to take-off now that there is more companies competing than just china

and, even though the number of charge cycles is lower than ion, its still able to remain competitive: because there is zero range hit from maxing-out the charge every cycle ( so your cell capacity doesn't fall much over lifetime, and as a bonus, when a cell dies, it wont catch fire!)

I mean, if you can only have 1/10 times the charge cycle of old Li ion with optimal 20-50 percent charge ranges on those ancient relics , then you aren't going to see much-different charge cycle counts if you go phosphate and use it like normal person (max charge every time you have a cable)

Tesla Model 3 Highland May Use CATL's New LFP Battery: Report

The upgraded, Chinese-made Tesla Model 3 will use CATL's new M3P lithium iron phosphate battery, according to the report. The base Model 3's battery pack capacity will be upgraded from 60 kWh to 66 kWh.

www.tesmanian.com

don't hate on the future of mostly conflict-free lithium iron phosphate, where battery fires become a thing of the past, while being vastly cheaper to make than basic lithium ion (with its ancient nickle AND COBALT CHEM) - unless you like surrendering half your battery capacity to the optimal charge curve fairy, then you're not going to see anywhere-near 10x charge cycles over Fe

 

[mb194dc]

They're going to trial using the gas grid to deliver hydrogen around the UK:

UK hydrogen fuel stations to be supplied via the natural gas grid in new trial | Auto Express

Gas companies want to mix hydrogen into the natural gas grid, then ‘deblend’ it locally to supply a network of hydrogen fuel stations

www.autoexpress.co.uk

Progress.

 

[Vayra86]

what about future techs that Tesla and ford are both embracing?

while iron phosphate doesn't remove lithium entirely from the chemistry, it gets rid of much more expensive nickle, plus the similar environment-destroying cobalt mining:

The Environmental Impacts of Cobalt Mining in Congo | Earth.Org

As demand for cobalt has skyrocketed over the last few decades, it is Congo, home to most of Earth’s cobalt reserves.

earth.org

They have a lot of room for growth in the fairly new chemistry - in only 5 years of mass-production in china-alone , they bumped capacity by 10 percent while lowering costs of the new model 3 highland refresh! you cant do anything near that much improvement with fuel cells! its going to take-off now that there is more companies competing than just china

and, even though the number of charge cycles is lower than ion, its still able to remain competitive: because there is zero range hit from maxing-out the charge every cycle ( so your cell capacity doesn't fall much over lifetime, and as a bonus, when a cell dies, it wont catch fire!)

I mean, if you can only have 1/10 times the charge cycle of old Li ion with optimal 20-50 percent charge ranges on those ancient relics , then you aren't going to see much-different charge cycle counts if you go phosphate and use it like normal person (max charge every time you have a cable)

Tesla Model 3 Highland May Use CATL's New LFP Battery: Report

The upgraded, Chinese-made Tesla Model 3 will use CATL's new M3P lithium iron phosphate battery, according to the report. The base Model 3's battery pack capacity will be upgraded from 60 kWh to 66 kWh.

www.tesmanian.com

don't hate on the future of mostly conflict-free lithium iron phosphate, where battery fires become a thing of the past, while being vastly cheaper to make than basic lithium ion (with its ancient nickle AND COBALT CHEM) - unless you like surrendering half your battery capacity to the optimal charge curve fairy, then you're not going to see anywhere-near 10x charge cycles over Fe

About those cells, I have 35k KM on the VW ID3 and part of its warranty/contract is now a service day where the car gets revised/checked for any dead cells and serviced/replaced where necessary.

Its a modular setup, they replace the dead ones, and poof you remain at max range. Additionally, I always charged the car for 100% (lease, so yea ) and I havent noticed ANY reduction in actual range or horsepower. And Ill say I drive/accelerate pedal to the bottom wherever I fancy doing so. Also and primarily because I am curious about how the battery wear works out over time as well should I ever want to buy one for real. I think this also puts a new perspective on the second handvalue of an EV...

Another thing to consider is that the other serviceable/vulnerable to wear/tear parts of an EV are simply not there as they exist within an ICE. Its simply replaced with battery cell maintenance.

Will keep this topic updated on my experiences! For science

 

[defaultluser]

They're going to trial using the gas grid to deliver hydrogen around the UK:

UK hydrogen fuel stations to be supplied via the natural gas grid in new trial | Auto Express

Gas companies want to mix hydrogen into the natural gas grid, then ‘deblend’ it locally to supply a network of hydrogen fuel stations

www.autoexpress.co.uk

Progress.

'that's what I've been saying for years now you're never going to make electrolysis affordable,so reformed hydrogen is the only affordable way forward

but other than steel,you're making a poor case for h2 in anything else - buses already mostly run cng for longer route, but by the time those trains are developed, the full battery-electric train will be more viable:

Is compressed natural gas finally feasible for railroad applications?

CNGmotive’s solution for fueling locomotives provides potential to decarbonize rail using renewable natural gas.

www.freightwaves.com

and as batteries improve, it will replace buses as-well!

h2 trains are completely off-the-table for anything long-distance, as they require massive 10k psi infrastructure (three times higher pressure than cng, and that is already nearly-impossible to fuel trains)

h2 cars are just as DOA as trains - putting-in local reformers will make it cheaper, but not the cost of those massive carbon-fiber reinforced tanks in cars like the mirai (those will always need replacement after 150k, and cost over 10k new, installation is way extra - one guy quoted 23k total after his was stolen )!

 

[Waldorf]

@KrazyT/shrek
you guys seem to have trouble using a search engine in your browser, to find the info,
lucky im in a good mood :

918:
94 mpg‑imp; 78 mpg‑US, combined city/highway 3.5 L/100 km (81 mpg‑imp; 67 mpg‑US).

prius:
avg 50mpg, 51 city, 48 hwy.
and even the 2023 ones do just 57 city, 56 hwy.

 

[Shrek]

2015 Porsche 918 Spyder (fueleconomy.gov)

22 mpg when running on gas (after the first 12 miles on electricity)

 

[KrazyT]

Ok numbers are incredible for the 918 ... A review of Top Gear talks about 8.8 L / 100 km (and it's already really good !)
For the Prius (3rd gen), my father used to do 3.9 L / 100 kms, certified !
Of course, not the same thing compared to the Porsche and not the same price either ...
In fact, it cannot be compared

 

[defaultluser]

A boon for hydrogen is the potential for Petrol-like refueling times, and ease of mass-infrastructural deployment. In an ideal world, every small fuel station store could purchase or lease equipment for on-site generation. Meaning, eased parallel rapid adoption.

Your points for EVs are all valid for any metroplex-like area, and places with limited regular commutes.

this is another fever dream brought-on by the easy installation of a gas tank in your own home..,,which is somewhat easy to have filled! But there is nothing on the planet that will ever make h2 that easy!

its not like you can refine usable gasoline at home, and even though you have electrolysis for h2, by the time you take into account:
1: percentages of purity,
2. filtering-out contaminants,
3: paying for an insanely-expensive 10k psi h2 compressor, plus
4: that insanely-expensive catalytic converter for the most efficient electrolysis (iridium, ruthenium, and platinum,)

See here for more details on the complex chemical process:

Water treatment for green hydrogen: what you need to know

Water is essential for the production of green hydrogen. As the market matures, crucial questions about the use of water are starting to arise. How much water is needed? What quality is sufficient? Where should the water come from? Let’s shed some light on these fundamental questions.

hydrogentechworld.com

you might as well install multiple Supercharger points on the same land (you would have the same basic utility, at a fraction of the price!) Even getting h2 home-delivered will never be feasible

 

[AusWolf]

Not here in the UK, that's for sure; There are several hundred thousand electric charging points. There are barely a hundred hydrogen stations.

We're talking three-orders-of-magnitude's worth of irrelevance.

Don't get me wrong, hydrogen electrolysis making fuel at fuel stations is both viable and awesome, but infrastructure sells vehicles and there's close to zero infrastructure for hydrogen refuelling in the overwhelming majority of countries. Hydrogen car owners fund hydrogen fuel stations, and there are none, to the nearest three decimal places.

People can plug an EV into just about anything. Their house, one of half a million public charging points, a hotel, supermarket, or car-park's private charging point, or go to a fuel station where they can top up with petrol/gas because 70% of the EV's are PHEVs.

As long as not everybody can charge an EV at home, and charging times at public stations are North of an hour at minimum, and batteries die and are costly to replace, even EVs are irrelevant and unsuitable for mass adoption, imo.

I know hydrogen is problematic as well, but trying to find an alternative solution instead of pushing an agenda that doesn't work is commendable.