Off-the-shelf PC

[jonUK76]

ECC needs support in the BIOS, the CPU (which contains the memory controller on modern systems) and the chipset. This is the same on DDR5 as DDR4, to my knowledge. Intel CPU's for the most part explicitly did not support ECC in their desktop CPU's (Core, Pentium etc) and reserved it for their Xeon range. That seems to have changed with the latest LGA 1700 range (check the datasheets - for example i5-12600K supports ECC). The odd thing with AMD's position is that they've enabled it on many of their Ryzen CPU's (for APU's it's only the PRO versions), but they don't put it in any of their documentation - it's "unofficial".

ECC on Ryzen, Asus FAQ https://www.asus.com/support/faq/1045186
AMD confirms ECC support (old, 1st Gen) https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_confirms_that_ryzen_supports_ecc_memory/1
AMD discussion on ECC with Ryzen 7000 serieis https://community.amd.com/t5/proces...kingston-s-ecc-memory-modules-and/td-p/597198

As far as I know this means unregistered DIMM's with ECC - registered DIMM's aren't supported on Ryzen.

 

[dgianstefani]

I am prepping for the future as I can't move on the purchase at the moment as it would look strange if I had a better gaming machine than my Son (he is the one who games), but he finishes high school in a year.

So far I have been using whatever was abandoned; which makes choosing so much easier, but leaves me on an old machine with a proprietary 12V power supply.


WANTS

• I have my eye on DDR5 as I like the idea of error correction and reliability is high on my list; I want things to just work and last, but not be too noisy
• Would want 2 internal drives, one for backup without anything hanging externally; the backup drive can be slow (SATA)
• Enough cooling to handle the Summer heat without getting too noisy.
• VRMs able to handle CPU upgrades

DON'T WANTS

• No RGB or windowed case; no over-clocking.
• Don't want an all-in-one or water cooling.
• Don't want to be on the bleeding edge

DON'T NEED

• Don't need a DVD player or small form factor PC
• USB 3 is fine, don't really want cutting edge, but want something that is probably supported by Windows 12

DON'T KNOWS

• Am wondering if the 12V standard for power supplies will become THE standard.
• Haven't figured if Intel or AMD is the way to go.

PREFER

• A video card that will last and can handle the heat (I don't use air-conditioning in the Summer)
• A case that uses larger fans so things stay cool without excessive noise
• A reasonable power consumption
• No need for RAM heatsinks

No real budget limit, but I'm not after squandering; 16 GB RAM would be a good start, but the motherboard should be capable of more.

Now you can maybe see why I prefer to start with a pre-built machine and then figure out my upgrades one by one.

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/8Yp2Kp

CPU: Intel Core i7-13700 2.1 GHz 16-Core Processor ($379.00 @ Amazon) https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i7-13700.c2957 65 W TDP, very efficient, very performant, Raptor Lake, but not to be confused with K series, tuned for peak efficiency not extreme performance.

CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-P1 Fanless CPU Cooler ($109.90 @ Amazon)
The Noctua NH-P1 can handle loads lower than 100 Watts rather well. https://www.anandtech.com/show/17240/the-noctua-nhp1-passive-cooler-review/3 That's with no fan either, so with the case fans you'll have excellent CPU performance, with noise levels that don't fluctuate under load.

Motherboard: ASRock Z790 PG-ITX/TB4 Mini ITX LGA1700 Motherboard ($334.99 @ Amazon)
Good VRM, PCIE 5, Thunderbolt 4 so you have a very future proof connector that's useful in all sorts of ways.
2 × USB 3.2 Gen2 (Thunderbolt 4 Type-C)
6 × USB 3.2 Gen2 (Type-A)
1 × RJ-45 2.5 Gbit
2 audio jacks
2 antennas
HDMI
Display Port 1.4

Memory: TEAMGROUP T-Create Expert 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-7200 CL34 Memory ($139.99 @ Amazon)
Good, fast and cheap RAM with no frills such as RGB.

Storage: Samsung 990 Pro 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($69.99 @ B&H)
Great boot drive, very fast and efficient.

Storage: Western Digital Blue SN570 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($92.99 @ Amazon)
Great bulk storage drive. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/wd-blue-sn570-1-tb/

Video Card: Asus DUAL OC GeForce RTX 4060 8 GB Video Card ($299.99 @ Newegg)
Best of the 4060 AIBs, very quiet, idle fan stop, very efficient. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-geforce-rtx-4060-dual-oc/

Case: Asus Prime AP201 MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($74.99 @ Newegg)
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-prime-ap201/9.html editors choice, excellent cooling and simple aesthetics, I've personally built in this case before.

Power Supply: SeaSonic PRIME Fanless 700 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular Fanless ATX Power Supply ($298.98 @ Newegg)
I've personally used this PSU in a friends build, reeks of quality and is completely silent, didn't notice any coil whine at all either. Extremely efficient 94%+ and with a very good warranty. No fan, case airflow is enough.

Case Fan: Phanteks PH-F120T30 67 CFM 120 mm Fans 3-Pack ($85.99 @ Amazon)
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/phanteks-t30-120-fan/ Best performing noise normalised fans TPU has ever tested, beating out most 140 mm fans too. With no CPU fan, no PSU fan, GPU fan stop on 2D loads and idle, and no other case fans, you can run these at a speed they will be virtually inaudible sub 30 dBA while still having really good cooling.

Overall this is a build focused on subtle quality, you'll have very low noise/inaudible, but have a performant system that is capable of integrating future tech well, due to DDR5, PCIE5 and Thunderbolt 4. You could feasibly skip the 4060 and use the iGPU within the 13700, which is capable for 2D work and light gaming.


Total: $1886.81
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2023-07-10 08:47 EDT-0400

The entire build should use less than 300 W even synthetically maxed out, so it will be light on your electricity build too.

The case is very easy to build in too, as all the panels can be removed.

ASUS Prime AP201 MicroATX Case｜PC Cases & Accessories｜ASUS United Kingdom

ASUS Prime case is expertly engineered to provide the exquisite ID design with comprehensive cooling solutions. Prime series case provide daily users and DIY PC builders with a high-performance platform that invites great compatibility and a tasteful, minimalist aesthetic.

www.asus.com

You cannot buy an off the shelf PC with this combination of quality, performance and the ability to operate inaudibly, not to mention warranty length of the componentry.

Pure M.2 NVMe SSD build too, so no SATA power or data cable mess and hassle.

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/P7mmP6/

The only option I would also consider is also having one of these enterprise grade Optane units for your OS and core programs drive. Optane is unbeatable for latency, responsiveness, longevity and 4K queue depth 1 random speeds (what most program and OS files use), at ~300 MB/s it's about 3x faster than the fastest PCIE 5.0 drive, while having endurance more than 10x better due to the the physical differences of 3DXpoint cells.

A reasonable option would be having the Optane 118 GB for Windows and most of your programs, and you could have a single 990 Pro 2 TB for everything else. The motherboard does have three M.2 slots though, so you could just add it to the build with no issues.

At $58.99 it's a pretty great deal to basically not worry about your boot drive wearing out, while also enjoying the performance advantages of Optane.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 vs Intel Core i7-13700

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 vs Intel Core i7-13700. Benchmark, test, review, comparison and differences between these CPUs in Cinebench 23 and Geekbench 5

www.cpu-monkey.com

You're looking at a silent build that's five to twenty times faster than your current system.

I'm also pretty sure that, at ~120 W peak and around 5 W desktop, you could deshroud the 4060 and run it fanless, case airflow with three 120x30mm T30 fans would be more than enough, and modern GPUs can control their temperatures easily enough with clocks anyway, even if you didn't do a simple undervolt.

Yep, the card is even designed to easily remove/replace the shroud, perfect.

 

[Shrek]

Much appreciated; I now feel better prepared for when I finally make the move as Windows 10 support ends (in about 2 years)

 

[nomdeplume]

Commissions for moving 4060 / 4060 Ti must be highly incentivized or tied to some other stacking bonus criteria.

It also pays to mind the fact this is a two year out pre-planning discussion that will likely make current products irrelevant.


I just cannot get past the prebuilt element though. If there is a sworn duty of enthusiasts forums, it must impel bearing light upon the reasonings being compiled to justify this type of purchase. No idea what the gaming machine in his house is like. $40 GTX1060 and rapidly dropping prices on 8th/9th/10th gen Intel make for an attractive proposition that breaks with the dual core mentality, today. I think the change would be overly healthy and enriching in this regard.

 

[Shrek]

Pre-built remains an attractive option for me...

My Core 2 Quad on an SSD remains nimble and so it is just the inability to move to (supported) Windows 11 that drives this need to upgrade.

 

[dgianstefani]

Commissions for moving 4060 / 4060 Ti must be highly incentivized or tied to some other stacking bonus criteria. .

So what would you buy for $300 (new)?

 

[A Computer Guy]

Pre-built remains an attractive option for me...

My Core 2 Quad on an SSD remains nimble and so it is just the inability to move to (supported) Windows 11 that drives this need to upgrade.

Since you mentioned pre-built I was wondering what you think of something like this.

Venus UM790 Pro

Minisforum UM790 PRO is Powered by AMD Ryzen™ 9 7940HS Processor and AMD Radeon™ 780M. Dual NVMe PCIe4.0 & Dual 40Gbps USB4. Intel® Killer™ AX1675 Wi-Fi 6E Network Card. The UM790 Pro Features An Innovative Cooling System That Actively Cools The Memory and SSD

store.minisforum.com

 

[Shrek]

By prebuilt I meant as a starting point; so with the ability to change parts such as the CPU, power supply and video card.

 

[A Computer Guy]

So what would you buy for $300 (new)?

If hanging on to a system as the OP has for so long it kind of only makes sense to get the latest and greatest (within reason) since it's likely they will do the same thing again.
I literally rode my Core 2 Quad until it died, actually until Win10 killed my storage array, before jumping to AM4. Had that not happened I'd probably have jumped in during Zen3 or Intel 12 instead.

 

[dgianstefani]

There's not much point, you'll pay more, for less, to save maybe an hour on assembly.

A used ebay build from someone upgrading would probably be a cheaper starting point, or commission someone to build for you.

By prebuilt I meant as a starting point; so with the ability to change parts such as the power supply and video card.

If hanging on to a system as the OP has for so long it kind of only makes sense to get the latest and greatest (within reason) since it's likely they will do the same thing again.
I literally rode my Core 2 Quad until it died, actually until Win10 killed my storage array, before jumping to AM4. Had that not happened I'd probably have jumped in during Zen3 instead.

Sure, but it seems GPU is the least of his needs, he's using a 1030.

4070 would be a strong alternative, next best option is 4090 but that's only for enthusiasts.

That's why the build I linked went hard on top end componentry, but has a mid range gpu that can be passively cooled.

 

[Dan.G]

What about Lenovo desktops? I think you can turn off the RGB effects.
Desktops & All in One Computers | Lenovo US

 

[Shrek]

A Lenovo desktop could work if nothing is proprietary.

 

[Bill_Bright]

If one wanted an off-the-shelf PC with nothing proprietory

No such thing. If it is "factory made", there will be something proprietary in it. It may be trivial and easy to deal with. Or it may be a major (read: expensive and a PITA) obstacle when it comes to potential upgrades and/or repairs.

For example, I have seen factory made PCs where, instead of using standoffs and mounting screws to secure the motherboard to the case, the "proprietary" case had little "tines" or fingers punched in the case's sheet metal that poked through the motherboard's mounting holes and were then twisted and bent down to secure the board in place. And that worked just fine.

The problem was, to remove and replace the board, you had to straighten those tines and then bend them back to secure the replaced board. What happens when you bend a piece of metal several times? It get's "metal fatigue" and breaks. So inevitably, several of those metal tines would then break and you would lose that important mounting point AND the important electrical ground a screw there would typically provide.

Pre-built remains an attractive option for me...

There's no shame in that. But there must be realistic expectations.

If looking for a pre-built that is fully ATX compliant, without any proprietary modifications or 4 boatloads of preloaded shi... err... wonderful stuff you don't want already installed, I would really suggest researching your local area for a reputable, local shop. Then have them build one for you - to YOUR specs and needs. Not the specs and needs of the millions and millions of people the factory marketing weenies claim are just like you!

You won't get it today. You might have to wait a couple weeks. But it will be built to your specs for how you need it. And it will be totally ATX compliant, and it will be clean of shi... umm... cra... err... extra stuff you don't need or want.

Yes, it might cost a little more but IMO, as a long time custom PC builder, I know my customers appreciate having a system built specifically for them and their needs AND they appreciate having someone local they can talk to who knows that computer, and that client.

A Lenovo desktop could work if nothing is proprietary.

See Lenovo Chinese Spyware.

 

[dgianstefani]

No such thing. If it is "factory made", there will be something proprietary in it. It may be trivial and easy to deal with. Or it may be a major (read: expensive and a PITA) obstacle when it comes to potential upgrades and/or repairs.

For example, I have seen factory made PCs where, instead of using standoffs and mounting screws to secure the motherboard to the case, the "proprietary" case had little "tines" or fingers punched in the case's sheet metal that poked through the motherboard's mounting holes and were then twisted and bent down to secure the board in place. And that worked just fine.

The problem was, to remove and replace the board, you had to straighten those tines and then bend them back to secure the replaced board. What happens when you bend a piece of metal several times? It get's "metal fatigue" and breaks. So inevitably, several of those metal tines would then break and you would lose that important mounting point AND the important electrical ground a screw there would typically provide.


There's no shame in that. But there must be realistic expectations.

If looking for a pre-built that is fully ATX compliant, without any proprietary modifications or 4 boatloads of preloaded shi... err... wonderful stuff you don't want already installed, I would really suggest researching your local area for a reputable, local shop. Then have them build one for you - to YOUR specs and needs. Not the specs and needs of the millions and millions of people the factory marketing weenies claim are just like you!

You won't get it today. You might have to wait a couple weeks. But it will be built to your specs for how you need it. And it will be totally ATX compliant, and it will be clean of shi... umm... cra... err... extra stuff you don't need or want.

Yes, it might cost a little more but IMO, as a long time custom PC builder, I know my customers appreciate having a system built specifically for them and their needs AND they appreciate having someone local they can talk to who knows that computer, and that client.


See Lenovo Chinese Spyware.

Yep, in two years come back, we'll give you a good part list, then have a local place build it.

Don't financially support mediocrity - prebuilts.

 

[A Computer Guy]

By prebuilt I meant as a starting point; so with the ability to change parts such as the CPU, power supply and video card.

I mentioned it because it seems since you hold on to your system for so long you might just need to be able to replace the PSU (or power brick), RAM if it goes bad, and possibly reconfigured storage if you need more. So if you got one of these units with a good enough CPU/iGPU (for 4K & >GT1030) and maxed out the RAM (DDR5) it probably still overkills your needs plus it's compact and very energy efficient.
But I get it. There is limited ability to replace parts with this kind of solution or use expansion cards.

 

[Shrek]

For example, I have seen factory made PCs where, instead of using standoffs and mounting screws to secure the motherboard to the case, the "proprietary" case had little "tines" or fingers punched in the case's sheet metal that poked through the motherboard's mounting holes and were then twisted and bent down to secure the board in place. And that worked just fine.

The problem was, to remove and replace the board, you had to straighten those tines and then bend them back to secure the replaced board. What happens when you bend a piece of metal several times? It get's "metal fatigue" and breaks. So inevitably, several of those metal tines would then break and you would lose that important mounting point AND the important electrical ground a screw there would typically provide.

That's scary

If looking for a pre-built that is fully ATX compliant, without any proprietary modifications or 4 boatloads of preloaded shi... err... wonderful stuff you don't want already installed

Formatting and reinstalling Windows from scratch is easy enough.

There is also the cost of a Windows license with a non pre-built and postage costs if one gets parts from different suppliers.

 

[dgianstefani]

There is also the cost of a Windows license with a non pre-built and postage costs if one gets parts from different suppliers.

Postage is generally free, or inclusive in PCPartPicker lists, legit Windows costs ten bucks.

 

[Shrek]

I literally rode my Core 2 Quad until it died

I keep my PCs going by things like recapping the power supply; I have been known to recap a mother board in the past, but those days are gone.

My Core 2 would be long gone if I had not been able to updgrade the CPU (to a quad), the RAM, video card, etc

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yep, in two years come back, we'll give you a good part list, then have a local place build it.

Huh? You lost me. Perhaps I am not caffeinated enough yet. I don't understand who is the target of your sarcasm/criticism? Is it the factory made computer companies? Local shops? My comments about them?

It sounds like you are suggesting a local shop can't build you a custom built computer, to your specs, in just a couple weeks? I did intentionally specify "reputable" shop (with the knowledge there are many shops that definitely are not reputable ).

In my shop, we did it all the time - with an hour or two on day 1 to research and order the parts, and an hour or two or three on the last day to assemble the parts and install Windows, plus a week or two in the middle waiting for the ordered parts to arrive.

Our problem was we could not compete in price with Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo and others - not when Dell, for example, can go to ASUS, WD, Microsoft, AMD or Intel, Samsung, etc. and promise to buy 1 million units over the next year, then demand and get deep volume discounts.

 

[nomdeplume]

Pre-built remains an attractive option for me...

My Core 2 Quad on an SSD remains nimble and so it is just the inability to move to (supported) Windows 11 that drives this need to upgrade.

I respect that. Equally so the adage one should never feel driven to replace what works with the programs and means that fit their personal use. To be utterly fair you are looking at DDR5 and other modern protocol beyond usage in gaming.

I may not understand your reasoning for putting off a low cost build today given the upfront costs spiraling even further in years to come. Best of luck whatever the outcome of your choices is.

So what would you buy for $300 (new)?

I will give the same answer provided to W1zz in response to his theoretical offering of $700.

None.

 

[Shrek]

Huh? You lost me. Perhaps I am not caffeinated enough yet. I don't understand who is the target of your sarcasm/criticism? Is it the factory made computer companies? Local shops? My comments about them?

I am the target, as I am preparing for a scenario that is 2 years ahead (when Windows 10 support is dropped)

Our problem was we could not compete in price with Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo and others - not when Dell, for example, can go to ASUS, WD, Microsoft, AMD or Intel, Samsung, etc. and promise to buy 1 million units over the next year, then demand and get deep volume discounts.

I agree with you, while others here seem to be claiming I would lose money going this route.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I am the target,

Ah! Well, better you than me!

I agree with you, while others here seem to be claiming I would lose money going this route.

If your local shop and Dell were both providing a computer with the exactly same components inside, then sure, you likely would spend more "money" if you bought locally.

But spending more money for something does not automatically suggest you are "losing" money. Extra "value" is often achieved by spending extra money. Spending a little more money to buy a computer locally gets you a computer with fully ATX compliant parts, supported by someone you can look in the eye who is NOT a Level 1 on-line tech following a troubleshooting checklist he cannot deviate from. You get a computer that is not proprietary, but one that gives you options, one that can evolve through years upgrades - instead of being forced to buy all new. And that, BTW, can save you money in the long run.

 

[Shrek]

Hopefully I am able to handle the upgrades myself without needing a local guy.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Hopefully I am able to handle the upgrades myself without needing a local guy.

Exactly - and part of my point. Because a locally built system will be fully ATX compliant, self upgrades, potentially for years to come, will be possible. That is far from assured with a factory built system with proprietary modifications.

 

[dgianstefani]

So what would you buy for $300 (new)?

I will give the same answer provided to W1zz in response to his theoretical offering of $700.

None.

See, that's your problem. Some people have a budget and want to get the best option within that. You're perfectly happy to criticise, but aren't offering any solutions.

OP is coming from a 1030 and doesn't seem too bothered about graphics horsepower, in the entry level range, the 4060 is the best option. If you want to take issue with that, you need to have a compelling alternative.

I agree with you, while others here seem to be claiming I would lose money going this route.

You wouldn't lose money, you'd get similar raw performance for your budget (CPU, GPU, although still a bit worse than DIY), but the quality of components in a prebuilt compared to a DIY is generally much, much lower, in the same price. This isn't a claim, it's just a fact. PSU, cooling, case, storage performance and endurance, RAM speed (generally) and modularity/standards compatibility are all much, much worse in prebuilts.

Companies that specialise in "custom" or "gaming" prebuilts, ie not the big OEMs like Dell or Lenovo, will have fewer of these shortcomings, but you'll be paying around 20% of the value of the components for them to build it for you, plus many of them still skimp on components such as cooling, RAM and PSU.

Additionally, you'll typically only get a 1-3 year warranty with a prebuilt, if that. Whereas quality DIY components will have 2-10+ year warranties.

The margins have to come from somewhere.

With how easy it is to build an air cooled system, there's really no reasonable argument for going prebuilt if you're concerned about value and quality.