Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[Space Lynx]

I'm not sure if I'm on board with that. I'd much rather own the battery myself and make sure it's properly taken care of.

just an fyi, when I was looking at buying an EV a few years ago (glad I didn't) the dealership told me they can look at many different levels of quality of battery, its estimated life span for each cell, etc. so you could have a "tier based swap battery" thing in place, where if your battery is taken care of, you get to swap with the A tier of batteries, etc. or you can pay a monthly fee to move up tiers, i don't know.

honestly none of this matters, because toyota has figured out solid state batteries, and we will have damn near 800 mile range cars with a 10 minute charge soon enough. 2027 i believe, with 2025 the first prototype. this might put a nail in the coffin of hydrogen as well. toyota may have changed the world if they really do keep to their timeline of full mass scale production in 2027.

 

[tabascosauz]

just an fyi, when I was looking at buying an EV a few years ago (glad I didn't) the dealership told me they can look at many different levels of quality of battery, its estimated life span for each cell, etc. so you could have a "tier based swap battery" thing in place, where if your battery is taken care of, you get to swap with the A tier of batteries, etc. or you can pay a monthly fee to move up tiers, i don't know.

honestly none of this matters, because toyota has figured out solid state batteries, and we will have damn near 800 mile range cars with a 10 minute charge soon enough. 2027 i believe, with 2025 the first prototype. this might put a nail in the coffin of hydrogen as well. toyota may have changed the world if they really do keep to their timeline of full mass scale production in 2027.

I like the tech but I'm not sure Toyota is the pioneer their PR team made them out to be. Especially with the constant hype about solid state batteries, and also hype how Toyota is 'leaping to the top of the EV market' every time there's a big announcement. There have been small buses in French cities with solid state batteries for a couple years now (Bluebus). At one point news was even reporting that some of them caught fire and were taken out of a service for a little bit.

Often times solid state batteries have been described as a complete solution to EV battery fires, but that kind of ignores the fact that it's a broad umbrella term covering different designs, and the French buses also cast a bit of doubt on those claims since they did catch on fire despite supposedly using an all-solid design.

Also Toyota has just about never been on the forefront of any tech ever (which can be a good thing in reference to their reliability reputation), and they've dramatically changed their overall business direction a couple of times now in relation to future tech (hydrogen and EVs). Though given where their bz4X stands currently, they'll just about need that huge of a jump to get competitive. Then again, even the bz4X is still way ahead of the [basically] vaporware that they called the Mirai. So much for Toyota's big ambition on hydrogen.

Not that I don't think they can do it, but knowing Toyota's history / tech companies' PR in general / EVs in general, I'll believe it when I see it. Nowadays in the automotive space ambitious and lofty goals are almost never met.

 

[Shrek]

with a 10 minute charge

That is a lot of heat, even at high efficiency, so I imagine it will be accompanied by some form of cooling.

"tier based swap battery" thing in place

If it saves me money, I'd run on worn batteries unless I really need the range.

Then again, I'd be happy with slow charge from a standard 110V socket.

 

[AusWolf]

If it saves me money, I'd run on worn batteries unless I really need the range.

Then again, I'd be happy with slow charge from a standard 110V socket.

Does it save you money, though? I don't think service stations would test every single battery and charge you accordingly. If they could do that, nearly everybody would go for the better range. At least I would. I have no intention of going back early for another swap, especially not on a road trip. The lesser range doesn't save you a penny if you have to go back earlier and spend again.

I'd be happy to slow charge, too, but I don't have a socket anywhere near my parking space, nor can I have one, ever.

 

[defaultluser]

Does it save you money, though? I don't think service stations would test every single battery and charge you accordingly. If they could do that, nearly everybody would go for the better range. At least I would. I have no intention of going back early for another swap, especially not on a road trip. The lesser range doesn't save you a penny if you have to go back earlier and spend again.

I'd be happy to slow charge, too, but I don't have a socket anywhere near my parking space, nor can I have one, ever.

the long-term vision of that study I linked is 10x faster than the exiting slow-charge wireless road plate today, able to work at high-speeds. So all they need is to install it in interstates/us highways, and your problems are over!

As long as the journey has some of these in the surface, you never have to charge again...especially if you usually get stuck in traffic in one of these active segments(while you sit still,you charge your underutilized car twice as quickly)

 

[Waldorf]

@AusWolf
you need to get away from thinking of "just" batteries (by themselves).
dji has made Li-ion use on gear pretty save, by putting the controls in the pack.
sure it adds cost, but battery life is usually longer than plain packs (unless user mistreats on purpose).

my friend wasted almost 300$ (4 packs) for his drone because he left them below storage charge for month.
dji batteries self discharge to storage voltage (if left charged too long),
will show charge lvl on unit, so i know when i have to refill to keep it from degrading.
i spend the same for just 3 packs, but mine were still in like new condition after 1y, when selling the drone.

its easy to have packs coming with status leds, and incl some stats a tech can pull up on a diag system, and remove "bad" packs from
(circulation) use.
it probably will go in that direction, as recharging is useless for things like (e-) racing, short of things like caps being used (not batteries).

 

[Shrek]

So all they need is to install it in interstates/us highways, and your problems are over!

How does charging work? and by that I meant $$

 

[dragontamer5788]

If it saves me money, I'd run on worn batteries unless I really need the range.

Anyone who knows anything about cars will tell you that a 544kg / 1200lb lift will not be cheap.

I don't care what the part it is. You can't safely move 544kg using cheap equipment or using untrained mechanics. You need someone who knows what they're doing, carefully (and safely) handling the job. The shear weight of these battery packs alone make battery-swap infeasible.

544kg being the first hit for "Tesla Battery weight" on Google.

 

[Waldorf]

@dragontamer5788
nothing forces us to make big packs.
they can be smaller and have handles, swapping them like cells in a sci-fi movie.
tesla might have been the first for drivable e-cars, that doesnt make them the "best",
ignoring that the built quality doesnt match the price, and explains why +50% of Porsche (Tycan) buyers are former tesla drivers.

how many laps can a tesla do on "the ring" on a single charge?
how many if use a non-tesla brand?


racing ppl are already "working" on swappable batteries, so yeah..

 

[dragontamer5788]

@dragontamer5788
nothing forces us to make big packs.
they can be smaller and have handles, swapping them like cells in a sci-fi movie.
ignoring that racing ppl are already "working" on swappable batteries, so yeah..

You know what would be even easier?

If there was some kind of molecule that could store electricity in fluid form, so that it can be pumped into the car. Then when the electricity was used, maybe it could turn into clean water without any CO2.

Oh right, that's called Hydrogen, the H2 atom that turns into H2O upon the Oxidation reaction inside of a fuel cell.

----------

While you're all criticizing Hydrogen solutions while hoping for (lol) 500kg+ handles (or 100kg handles if you're willing to have 1/5th the range...) to physically move this stuff around, the H2 engineers have created simple pumps that do everything you're talking about.

 

[Waldorf]

@dragontamer5788

Hydrogen makes ZERO sense, if not produced 100% from renewable sources, period.
nothing you say will change the facts.

has nothing to do with how its stored/used etc.

 

[dragontamer5788]

@dragontamer5788

Hydrogen makes ZERO sense, if not produced 100% from renewable sources, period.
nothing you say will change the facts.

has nothing to do with how its stored/used etc.

Puertollano green hydrogen plant - Iberdrola

Iberdrola has commenced construction on the largest plant producing green hydrogen for industrial use in Europe. The Puertollano (Ciudad Real) plant will consist of a 100 MW photovoltaic solar plant, a lithium-ion battery system with a storage capacity of 20 MWh and one of the largest...

www.iberdrola.com

You were saying?

We need to solve the green-hydrogen issue to solve the fertilizer problem (as H2 is a needed element in the creation of ammonia and therefore fertilizer). Solar-to-Green H2 is currently being solved, with plants entering operational capacity right now.

 

[Waldorf]

as long as ppl cant put it in there car, anywhere they are, its mute that its "getting" operational.
not even talking about the fact that with billion of cars, one plant isnt enough.

you cant make trips as long as anything using diesel/gas engines, and for short range stuff, e-cars are better,
and we dont need to start from scratch.
efficiency isnt just how much is used to get somewhere, but how much you need to put "in" from start to end.
one major reason why gas/diesel is still (overall) efficiency king, especially when combined with e-tech (hybrids).

who invented:
the car
the diesel/wankel etc engines
. . .
same for virtually all safety features we have on cars today.

do you really think no german car maker is using hydrogen, because its the best solution?

 

[dragontamer5788]

do you really think no german car maker is using hydrogen, because its the best solution?

How obsolete are your statements?

BMW launches demonstration fleet of hydrogen cars that use fuel cells from Toyota

BMW is one of several automotive firms looking into the potential of hydrogen.

www.cnbc.com

You keep talking about things as if you haven't seen any news on H2 vehicles for the last decade or something.

----------------------

"Swappable Batteries" is called an H2 vehicle. That's literally why H2 fuel cells were invented, because using H2 pumps to move electricity makes a lot more sense than deploying 500kg cranes all over the place to replace Li-ion batteries. More-and-more companies are seeing the benefits of this methodology. Battery-swap stands no chance against this tech.

Now maybe, Li-ion still has a chance with regards to grid-tie charging stations and all that jazz. But battery swap? No competition. Its just not possible to compete against the economics of H2 with "battery swap". No one is going to want to physically move hundreds-of-kilograms every week or two in their car.

 

[Waldorf]

even if dont look the things i already mentioned,
its making much more sense to push stuff we already have/use.

if we have solar panels with 2-3 times efficiency, and have all homes (where its feasible) equipped,
it can not only reduce direct/indirect heating/electrical related emissions, but it can also charge a hybrid/e-car.
no one will plan on running hydrogen to power/heat homes...

we will have panels as thin and flexible as thin film plastics in 5-10y, allowing to be installed on windows etc,
so i rather see things like that being pushed, than come up with another thing, that we wont be using (globally) for another 20y.

 

[Shrek]

makes a lot more sense than deploying 500kg cranes all over the place to replace Li-ion batteries.

The standardized battery would be smaller, maybe 100kg; larger vehicles would have more slots than smaller vehicles. For around town use one could leave some slots empty to save weight.

Pickups could have space in the bed for times when extreem range was desired; but normally left empty.

People with access to home electricity would use that most of the time.

 

[dragontamer5788]

The standardized battery would be smaller, maybe 100kg

I doubt people will buy EVs with only 60-mile range.

Pickups could have space in the bed for times when extreem range was desired; but normally left empty.

65-miles isn't extreme range. All the additional weight of a pickup (and possibly if used with a trailer) means you'll probably only get 20-miles out of a 100kg Li-ion battery.

The F150 battery weighs 816 kg. 100kg is tiny, lulzy, infeasible batterypack.

 

[Shrek]

Did you read what I wrote?

"larger vehicles would have more slots than smaller vehicles"

 

[dragontamer5788]

Did you read what I wrote?

"larger vehicles would have more slots than smaller vehicles"

So... lets think about the economics of this. Your "solution", is for people to be picking up, borrowing, and returning $12,000 of batteries (ie: 400kg) around town, every time they need to travel 300 miles?

And its not like 100kg is an easy lift either. That's still not something that a typical person can carry or do themselves. And to get equivalent range to an F150 Lightning, you'll need 8+ of those 100kg packs, each of which costs thousands of dollars.

This is all insanity. You realize that right? There's nothing feasible about this plan at all.

 

[Shrek]

EV swappable battery - Bing video

 

[dragontamer5788]

EV swappable battery - Bing video

Demos don't have to be economical.

Explain to me how the corner "ev swap" station is supposed to make a profit when its loaning out $12,000 batteries to different customers and hoping that those battery packs aren't damaged by the time they come back. And the insurance paid on this has to be cheap enough for the drivers to get their... what? 300 miles? Out of this exchange?

 

[Shrek]

When I rent a $24,000 car for a 300 mi trip... explain to me how they make a profit.

But my opinion does not really matter; reality will kick in and we just have to wait and see what the future brings.

 

[dragontamer5788]

When I rent a $24,000 car for a 300 mi trip... explain to me how they make a profit.

They charge you a lot more than $40, which is what a tank of gasoline would cost for that kind of trip (AND you still have to pay for gasoline).

Would you spend $100+ for 300-miles worth of battery charge? Supercharger prices on the cost of electricity alone is reaching into $40 to $50 ranges, plus the costs of the swappable-batteries (cost of labor to move multiple 100kg objects into-and-out-of a car), etc. etc.

 

[Shrek]

Electric cars are here to stay.

 

[dragontamer5788]

But my opinion does not really matter; reality will kick in and we just have to wait and see what the future brings.

I'm not sure if H2 will kick off.

But I know for a fact that H2 is a better idea than battery-swap. That's all I'm saying.

Electric cars are here to stay.

There's not a single commercial battery swap anywhere that matters.

Meanwhile, we got H2 trucks running routes in USA and Europe. As well as H2 electrolyzers creating fully green Hydrogen for farms. H2 is here to stay, if only for the ammonia / fertilizer problem alone.

If EVs stay, it will have nothing to do with battery swap, because battery swap is completely insane. The weight, costs, and economics are all problematic. Just because you split up 500kg into smaller handles doesn't solve the issue btw, you still need to swap 500kg if you want 300-miles of charge, that's just the nature of Li-ion battery packs. It can be 20-packages of 25kg or 1-package of 500kg, either way its a problem and obviously infeasible.