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Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

ARF

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Every couple of years someone snookers idiots investing into green projects...

Except that green means better people's health (lower expenses for medicines, hospitals and the like) because less pollution, and renewables actually saves you from the dead end when the oil will be depleted.

1692127768873.png


1692127679107.png

 
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What is the point of having coils in the roadway as well. A normal high voltage AC tension cable is sufficient. Yes, the rest of the physics is like that, the field decreases according to the formula and if it is too powerful it would fry the rest of the electronics and electrical engineering in the car. Everything has to be protected... I see only problems to implement, except in the heads of some crazy and greedy scientists, corporations and politicians to create another Frankenstein.

because the physics of keeping a cable suspended (a mix of taut or unloaded, with constant curvature effect) is so much m,ore complex than a fixed wireless lane, or even a preferred yo use a steel third rail i(more reliable for trains)



wireless, on the other hand: (a few inches separating the car plate, and the road plate, all easily handling massive variations in alignment for one segment to the next, or one car/truck TO THE next)

but road cars have more varying road segments, meaning catenary only work well for fixed bus lines -

Trolleybuses

keeping magnetic plates aligned on a random interstate, feeding a vast mix of different vehicles,the wireless is the most reliable option
 
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Or just have governments invest in mass transit rather than developing infrastructure projects based on unproven and proprietary technologies that don’t discourage car ownership?

All of this car tech is awesome but if the concern is emissions and its effect on the world then the solution is a lot easier than the current market allows. Which is why I think the infrastructure question gets off-topic — building wireless charging into roads is neat but it’s way cheaper and far less resource intensive for both private and public investment to build public infrastructure.
Just wanted to toot my own horn
 
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Except that green means better people's health (lower expenses for medicines, hospitals and the like) because less pollution, and renewables actually saves you from the dead end when the oil will be depleted.

View attachment 309176

View attachment 309175
Did you know that is a lie?!

Oil is naturally occurring in our Earth mantle & we will never run out of it...we just need to keep digging newer holes:
 
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@ARF
in the 70s we had ~50y left, and here we are, its 50y later, and we still have 40y left.

while we get lower on oil, we also improve efficiency (getting it/production), while transportation/heating uses less,
so what we have automatically last longer (than before), while ignoring that we have starting different tech (fracking) to increase "output".

@KLiKzg
how it occurs is really irrelevant, the fact that we mess up the planet "getting it" (chemicals/spills etc),
ignoring for a moment that we are the only species burning it for heat/transportation, nor is it a good idea to "keep going",
just because we (still) have enough..





and public transportation isnt always the best solution, not everyone has a "stop" right in front of everywhere they need to go,
its going to be worse the smaller the city/town gets, as travel times will go up the more stops/transfers you have, nor can they invest as much.
ppl seem to not know how many vehicles/drivers you need, k=just to have ONE route, running from say 4am-1am.


my past (US) job required travelling 20 mls, which would be ~20-30 min by car, or 1.5-2h by public transport, and not because of lack of options.
so why would i waste a min of 3h/day, 15h/week, almost 3 days per month, using PT, instead of driving a car and spending that time on something else.
has nothing to do with convenience, but the time i lose, especially counting year and up.
 
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@Fry178 , well the issue is not in CO2. as CO2 level were quite higher in the past of the Earth. Do not believe the Inconvenient truth, as most of that film is bad science!

Here is what CO2 level were before:


& it is not like the Earth was not warmer then it is today. It is however that we are "not used to this warmer climate", with this civilization lifestyle:
1692189659934.png

or this one:
1692189630889.png



& time is not so much wasted, with newer "online jobs". But it is a problem, with "hours on a job vs. getting a job done". :cool:
 
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believing that mankind has no impact on this planet is, well...
there are only 2 options, we have a "problem", or we dont.

let say we invest and try to reduce emissions etc, find find out, we did it "for nothing", then we will just have spend money.
still better than doing nothing, and find out we DO have a "problem"..
 
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believing that mankind has no impact on this planet is, well...
there are only 2 options, we have a "problem", or we dont.

let say we invest and try to reduce emissions etc, find find out, we did it "for nothing", then we will just have spend money.
still better than doing nothing, and find out we DO have a "problem"..
Well, we do have a problem with emissions...but I question that CO2 is the only one responsible with current ~420ppm.
What about methane, from our farms?
What about fertilizers, for our farms?
What about CFC & similar refrigerator gases, for our AC or refrigerator's?

About the issue "we have a problem", is that the narrative (finally) has changed. We have a problem, not the Earth & not the nature. Humans have a problem in order to keep our way of life & our civilization going forward. As the only extinction that is going to be made soon is "our own (human kind)". :cool:

& much more with all ICE it is present, but in a way of CO2 emissions. As the hydrogen-ICE has the same kind of problem:
33~40% of power is transformed into kinetic energy, also means that 60~67% is a waste heat that is heating up our planet & terraforming it.
So it is not problem to have even 1 or 2% of CO2 emissions in the air. But it is a problem if we transfer 2/3 of that (oil) energy into heat on Earth. :toast:
 
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Ah, good...a true & lie in same post...so which is it? :D

Tell you what...we can't spent it or by time we spent it - we would be Venus.
& that is not going to happen, soon.

So all those oil-pricing manipulation is just a lie. :cool:


EDIT:
Back to hydrogen...so far, using compressed H2 seems to me so much "crude technology".
It will work out, once we have better technology in keeping H2 in some containers...gels are being made, but also some containment field would be nice.
 
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Wow this thread really went off the rails
 
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Ah, good...a true & lie in same post...so which is it? :D

Tell you what...we can't spent it or by time we spent it - we would be Venus.
& that is not going to happen, soon.

So all those oil-pricing manipulation is just a lie. :cool:


EDIT:
Back to hydrogen...so far, using compressed H2 seems to me so much "crude technology".
It will work out, once we have better technology in keeping H2 in some containers...gels are being made, but also some containment field would be nice.


about future containment hopes, well, they just got dashed by this: a syn-gas-powered ship to bypass all the h2 distribution issues!


even if it takes us forever to switch to carbon-neutral shipping, the transition to earth-extracted methane (from bunker fuel) alone will cut emissions impressive;y. you only need look at how much transitioning diesel city buses to cng brought massive benefits of just a fossil fuel change..and once cheap oil runs-out, you can continue to distribute syn-gas based ship fuel.

so no, I don't foresee any miracles improving upon the already impressive methane energy density (and if you're already paying the massive cost of h2 electrolysis, the added cost of syn-gas is lost-in-the-noise)!
 
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Wow this thread really went off the rails

Yeaaaahhhhh.


Lets talk about Hydrogen tech, in the Hydrogen topic people. Plenty of news stories showing off the new H2 tech, albeit fledgling and young its proving to be a valid competitor in many cities.

-----------

IMO, syngas is Hydrogen technology, because syngas only works if you have a reliable source of H2 + CO2. Chemically speaking, you'll need a ton of H2 to create ~2 tons of syngas or something. (Look, Chemistry was my worst subject, don't ask me to properly run the stoichiometry)
 
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believing that mankind has no impact on this planet is, well...
there are only 2 options, we have a "problem", or we dont.

let say we invest and try to reduce emissions etc, find find out, we did it "for nothing", then we will just have spend money.
still better than doing nothing, and find out we DO have a "problem"..
Yeah, we have a problem... my problem is that the temperature has barely exceeded 20 degrees C this summer here in the UK. I even had to turn the heating on on some nights to keep the house warm enough. I couldn't even go to a beach for a proper swim. Not once. And it's late August, so chances are that I won't, even. Global warming my backside...

I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest in better technologies for better efficiency and sustainability. I'm just saying that focusing on the negative, and trying to deal with problems we don't fully understand is pointless and foolish.
 
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Meanwhile the US had the hottest July in its history, by 3x margin. Coincidence? Maybe you just don’t understand your regional climate?

10s search “why uk cold”


 
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Meanwhile the US had the hottest July in its history, by 3x margin. Coincidence? Maybe you just don’t understand your regional climate?
Isn't global warming supposed to be global (not regional)?

Anyway, my point was that focusing on new, better technologies instead of problems is infinitely healthier.
 

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Yeah, we have a problem... my problem is that the temperature has barely exceeded 20 degrees C this summer here in the UK. I even had to turn the heating on on some nights to keep the house warm enough. I couldn't even go to a beach for a proper swim. Not once. And it's late August, so chances are that I won't, even. Global warming my backside...

I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest in better technologies for better efficiency and sustainability. I'm just saying that focusing on the negative, and trying to deal with problems we don't fully understand is pointless and foolish.

That's the gulf stream being pressed south. It's what's helped cause so many wildfires in europe. The UK enjoys a strange climate because of the gulf stream but if it does shift south, we'll see colder weather. As we have this summer.

As far as temps for this summer - did you forget June?


Isn't global warming supposed to be global (not regional)?

No. Actually. Global warming is the simple mean increase measured across the globe. In some places it's higher, in others it's lower. But the point is, the climate is in flux becasue of it.
 
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That's the gulf stream being pressed south. It's what's helped cause so many wildfires in europe. The UK enjoys a strange climate because of the gulf stream but if it does shift south, we'll see colder weather. As we have this summer.

As far as temps for this summer - did you forget June?




No. Actually. Global warming is the simple mean increase measured across the globe. In some places it's higher, in others it's lower. But the point is, the climate is in flux becasue of it.
So if it's warm, it's our fault, but if it's cold, it's still our fault.

I'm not saying that any of this is wrong (although it might be considering larger scale events, like solar cycles, for example), I just don't like the narrative. Developing new technologies and perfecting old ones is infinitely more fruitful than focusing on who's fault is what, and how F-ed up we as a species are.

I don't care about global warming, or cooling, or whatever n-th catastrophe will doom humankind (again). I care about stuff that makes my life, and that of others here on Earth better. ;)
 
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What is the point of having coils in the roadway as well. A normal high voltage AC tension cable is sufficient. Yes, the rest of the physics is like that, the field decreases according to the formula and if it is too powerful it would fry the rest of the electronics and electrical engineering in the car. Everything has to be protected... I see only problems to implement, except in the heads of some crazy and greedy scientists, corporations and politicians to create another Frankenstein.

The reason that I proposed coils is magnetic flux. The simplistic answer is that the higher the flux density the more energy that can be transferred from one coil to another. While a straight length of wire does produce a magnetic field, it's orders of magnitude too low of a flux to adequately power vehicles...where the simple laws of physics would prevent the coils from being very close together. Think car suspensions, roadway imperfections, and a gap you cannot overcome because the roadway coil would have to be buried under some distance of asphault or concrete to prevent damage due to regular surface wear.

To be fair though, I pulled numbers squarely from my butt. It's likely that the flux density would need much tighter or consecutively wound coils to be high enough....but a trillion dollars is stupidly expensive enough for most rational people to look at the idea and agree that the technical and monetary challenges make it a non-starter.

Except that green means better people's health (lower expenses for medicines, hospitals and the like) because less pollution, and renewables actually saves you from the dead end when the oil will be depleted.

View attachment 309176

View attachment 309175

You are missing the rest of the quote, and therefore are projecting a strawman onto my argument.

I don't see solar roadways...because they are a technological dead end.
I don't see hydrogen cars, because the materials science isn't there yet.
I see battery cars because the technology is proven...and the economics of manufacturing and scale make them viable.

You...seem to want to argue that solar energy is better... I call your bluff. According to our sources it is better...but our sources assume that most solar isn't made in China...where European and Western manufacturing makes them truly green. Well, the only green thing in China is the cuprous oxide in the water as a waste product. Pollution doesn't get to be ignored.


I do like the false equivocation though. All of the solar hitting Earth is a big number. Of course, that covers mostly oceans, uninhabited areas, and conveniently assumes we could collect all of it at 100% efficiency. All of these assumptions are garbage in, garbage out. I'm not here to say green is bad...like you want to imply. I'm stating that people want to do good, and it's easy to snooker them with faux green energy rhetoric.



If you want to argue, then explain:
1) No hyperloop.
2) No Tesla trucks....years after the promise date.
3) No Nikola electric trucks.
4) No Theranos magic blood machine.
5) No commercial space flight for the masses...or rocket powered flight which dwarfs the speed of commercial flight.

Most of that is one man making promises about science he cannot really make happen. He promises technical wizardry...that the merest thought proves stupid. An air hockey table inside a hundred mile long vacuum tube that would have to pull such a low pressure area that you couldn't have an air hockey table...yep. Glass panels as a road surface...yep. Hydrogen as the cure to all ICE ails...without the materials science to make it work yet...yep. Heck, green is great. LED lightbulbs, smart power grids, high efficiency power transfer, and a million other tangible technologies in the green space are great. Thing is electric energy is still produced from pressure. Pressure made by a heat source boiling water to turn an electric generator. If you're going to pretend green cars run off a mostly fossil fuel or damaging copper extraction process is good then you got fleeced. That said though, it's always fun for people to misquote and build a strawman that they then use to expose their own intellectual biases on. Like shooting irrational fish in a crazy barrel...whilst two feet over you've got a thousand gallon tank with a tropical fish assortment that would better serve your politics.
 
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@lilhasselhoffer
stuff doesnt have to be 100% efficient (right from the start), the same way everything else wasnt (any type of transportation/heating).
even if its 20% like for solar, its still better than zero % (as in no one using it)...
 
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I´ve also heard we run out of oil so many times so far, i think its used in artificially keeping prices up.
That said, i agree we should invest way more in green energy. We need to get better climate fast.
 
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investing (in " new" tech) is only going to help later on. we need to do things that have an impact now.

the top "polluter" are transportation/heating and growing plants/animals (for food).
one (technically two) can be reduced significantly, by getting rid of things that only exist to add variety, usually coming at a higher cost of the product (so less likely to be bought by +80% of consumers),
and really just there for the company to make additional profit (and the top 1% of the population who owns them).

e.g. we dont need 30 different type of drinking water (ignoring the plastic part for a moment) or 20 different brands of yoghurt,
or shrimps that travel the globe for longer distance (fishing-->consumed) than some will drive in their lifetime.
ignoring the "savings" (time/energy/ etc) from ppl spending less time in stores, as they dont need to choose between a wealth of (different) products,,
as +80% of consumers will spend multiple amount of time longer to make a selection, if given more than ~5 (of the same) item to choose from.
 
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investing (in " new" tech) is only going to help later on. we need to do things that have an impact now.

the top "polluter" are transportation/heating and growing plants/animals (for food).
one (technically two) can be reduced significantly, by getting rid of things that only exist to add variety, usually coming at a higher cost of the product (so less likely to be bought by +80% of consumers),
and really just there for the company to make additional profit (and the top 1% of the population who owns them).

e.g. we dont need 30 different type of drinking water (ignoring the plastic part for a moment) or 20 different brands of yoghurt,
or shrimps that travel the globe for longer distance (fishing-->consumed) than some will drive in their lifetime.
ignoring the "savings" (time/energy/ etc) from ppl spending less time in stores, as they dont need to choose between a wealth of (different) products,,
as +80% of consumers will spend multiple amount of time longer to make a selection, if given more than ~5 (of the same) item to choose from.
Getting rid of 90% of yoghurt brands only means that 10% will have to supply and control the whole market. That's monopoly which is ultimately bad for the consumer, and doesn't result in a greener environment in any way. Not to mention, variety in food is good for you.

What I think we need is social change. Reduction of working days, working from home options, home schooling options, automation of larger corporations, more aligned working hours with better public transport, higher salaries to make sure only one of the partners has to work, or they can both do part-time days, extended maternity leave, etc.

But let me stop the off-topic here (before the mods stop it). Let's get back to cars. :)
 
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having Fiji water in a european supermarket, or 20 different brands offering the (same) german sausage on the N.A. market has nothing to do with (basic) variety/selection.
you dont need to have the same thing in more than a dozen or so variations, anything else is excess, and only contributes to pollution,
and doesnt add anything to your life, and just the emissions from transporting those things around the planet is a huge problem.
e.g. why do you need eggs/milk/fruits/veggies etc, to be "made" further away than say 50-100km? no reason for that.

ignoring for a moment that social change (to improve lives) doesnt give the biggest gains to "being greener".
 

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I disagree with you about the water thing, as someone who expertly tests water quality levels, I will NEVER drink my local water, I have to import it in. I also like switching between different spring waters becausethey offer different nutrients.
 
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