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Are game requirements and VRAM usage a joke today?

wolf

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I also recently tested FSR in God of War,...... it still wasn't comparable to native.
Yeah... that's FSR for you, it misses that mark most of the time. Relatively speaking, DLSS is a lot more polished and stable.
But again - why should I use them when I can just manage the game settings and get a lot more FPS?
Lowering game settings is totally independent of resolution and upscaling, if you prefer to do that suit yourself, upscaling is another tool in the box to tweak the experience, I use a combination of both usually, optimised settings and upscaling.

Just like the false argument that better than native panel res isn't possible, I don't know why people talk about lowering settings as if it's comparable or somehow defeats the point of upscaling (typically said as something like.. "why would we add all these fancy effects just to make the image look worse with upscaling"). They adjust the image and performance in different ways, and neither one negates the other, they can be used in any combination.
 
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Just like the false argument that better than native panel res isn't possible, I don't know why people talk about lowering settings as if it's comparable or somehow defeats the point of upscaling
The argument isn't that it's comparable. The argument is that everybody has their preferences. If you like upscaling, that's fine. If someone else prefers lowering some other image quality settings and not touch upscaling, that's fine too. If you can live with a slightly blurrier-than-native image, then I don't see how living with slightly less crisp than ultra shadows, for example, is wrong.
 

wolf

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The argument isn't that it's comparable. The argument is that everybody has their preferences. If you like upscaling, that's fine. If someone else prefers lowering some other image quality settings and not touch upscaling, that's fine too. If you can live with a slightly blurrier-than-native image, then I don't see how living with slightly less crisp than ultra shadows, for example, is wrong.
Perhaps I've not articulated myself as well as to portray other peoples bad arguments against it (as their not my arguments, I cannot represent them well), many of which I've read on this very forum, but they are effectively engaging the false equivalence fallacy. They are not the same thing, and can be totally independent of each other, apples and oranges if you will.

I can't speak to your argument of preference, as it's not who or what I was replying to, and not the point I was making.
 

Xii-Nyth

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between 1995-2003 you went form 128 MB to 128 GB sd cards,
1000x

between 2017 and 2023 an nvidia flagship has gone from 12 to 24 GB of vram,
2x

its not the devs fault they want to have high res textures, in fact textures have been getting more blurry since they need to add more
 
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The argument isn't that it's comparable. The argument is that everybody has their preferences. If you like upscaling, that's fine. If someone else prefers lowering some other image quality settings and not touch upscaling, that's fine too. If you can live with a slightly blurrier-than-native image, then I don't see how living with slightly less crisp than ultra shadows, for example, is wrong.
You keep repeating the blurrier image, that tells me that you really dont know what you are talking about. Im sorry but the epitome of blurriness is native, that's the whole problem with TAA. It makes the image insanely blurry. That's literally how it works and why it removes jagged edges.

I mean....I don't even know why im bothering anymore with reality. Let's all make stuff up
 
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You keep repeating the blurrier image, that tells me that you really dont know what you are talking about. Im sorry but the epitome of blurriness is native, that's the whole problem with TAA. It makes the image insanely blurry. That's literally how it works and why it removes jagged edges.

I mean....I don't even know why im bothering anymore with reality. Let's all make stuff up
I never mentioned TAA. You're deflecting the topic again. I know what I'm talking about but you keep talking about something else just to win a pointless argument.
 
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I never mentioned TAA. You're deflecting the topic again. I know what I'm talking about but you keep talking about something else just to win a pointless argument.
You don't have to mention TAA, you mentioned native. The vast majority of games use TAA at native, that's why native image is much blurrier than dlss. Yet you claim the opposite. You do understand the problem? It's not an opinion anymore, it's just misinformation
 
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You don't have to mention TAA, you mentioned native. The vast majority of games use TAA at native, that's why native image is much blurrier than dlss. Yet you claim the opposite. You do understand the problem? It's not an opinion anymore, it's just misinformation
In most games, TAA is a toggle that you can switch on or off, just like DLSS, so pure native is an option. Which one you prefer is up to you.

Personally, I have nothing against TAA in most games, but that's my personal preference, which doesn't compare to yours and that of millions of Nvidia fans, as I'm sure you'll soon point out. Obviously, the way I play my games is wrong and only you are right. :rolleyes: /s
 
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You don't have to mention TAA, you mentioned native. The vast majority of games use TAA at native, that's why native image is much blurrier than dlss. Yet you claim the opposite. You do understand the problem? It's not an opinion anymore, it's just misinformation
In most games, TAA is a toggle that you can switch on or off, just like DLSS. Which one you prefer is up to you.

Not all the time, there's quite a few games where it's hard locked to the textures. If you enable ultra textures, you automatically get TAA forced on & enabled, without a way to disable it either.

I don't believe you need any of these AA & AF or D.L.S.S, F.S.R, X.e.XX stuff at 1440p or 2160p/4K.
Since on most reviews you have the reviewer zooming in at 200x-400x zoom just to show a detail so small you'd never noticed while playing the game normally.
 
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Not all the time, there's quite a few games where it's hard locked to the textures. If you enable ultra textures, you automatically get TAA forced on & enabled, without a way to disable it either.

I don't believe you need any of these AA & AF or D.L.S.S, F.S.R, X.e.XX stuff at 1440p or 2160p/4K.
Since on most reviews you have the reviewer zooming in at 200x-400x zoom just to show a detail so small you'd never noticed while playing the game normally.
There's no need to enable ultra textures in those games, then, unless you have no problems with TAA, like myself.
 
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There's no need to enable ultra textures in those games, then, unless you have no problems with TAA, like myself.

My problem with TAA is mainly the image instability it has in a bunch of games lately, texture and foliage flickering and once I see that it drives me crazy and cranking up everything to max doesn't fix that either.
DLSS often fixes or at least makes it much less visible and with Quality mode I can hardly notice the supposedly 'worse' image quality heck in some games its more clear than the TAA implementation but that depends on a per game basis and the DLSS version too. 'good thing is that you can drop your DLSS dll in your game's folder in most cases if its some crappy dated version of DLSS by default'
For example check the Death Stranding here in this video of what I'm talking about:

So even if there is a slight reduction in image sharpness with DLSS Quality I will trade that any day for a more stable image but thats just me ofc. 'Thats why I often run DLSS even when I don't even need it for performance in some lighter games'
Sure DLSS has its own issues but I often find that those specific issues are not as bothersome to me as the issues with TAA but thats highly subjective ofc.
 
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wolf

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Not all the time, there's quite a few games where it's hard locked to the textures
Not even just textures, from what I've seen in most games that I play, you can't disable TAA (or derivatives) because parts of the render pipeline are dependant on it to not break effects, from where I sit it's far more rare to be able to disable TAA entirely in favour of no AA or say SMAA/FXAA.

And therein lies the easy wins for DLSS and even FSR sometimes, the default, not able to be completely disabled TAA is so often quite soft with it's own artefacts, it's no wonder the modern upscalers are preferable to many people. Similar detail resolve (sometimes slightly better or worse) different or sometimes drastically reduced artefacts, and more performance.
Since on most reviews you have the reviewer zooming in at 200x-400x zoom just to show a detail so small you'd never noticed while playing the game normally.
Hard disagree, they zoom in to make their point because, well, that's the point of the video, but many artefacts catch the eye with no zooming or pixel peeping whatsoever, and overall image detail also comes across in regular gameplay. Perhaps you'd never notice it, but I sure as hec do.

What bothers people varies of course, some people just can't stand TAA or get motion sick, personally it's shimmer and stair stepping that immediately grab my eye and break immersion, and as you can probably piece together from how highly I talk about it, it's something that DLAA/DLSS deals with incredibly well, image stability is unparalleled.
 
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In most games, TAA is a toggle that you can switch on or off, just like DLSS, so pure native is an option. Which one you prefer is up to you.
No it's not? I swear to you, ive never see togglable TAA, only gave that might have had it - but not sure - is Forza horizon 5. Every other game you either turn it OFF and have no AA or have to go with TAA. If that's what you mean by togglable, sure some games have it but turning it off means you have no AA. It's not really a solution.
 
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I don't believe you need any of these AA & AF or D.L.S.S, F.S.R, X.e.XX stuff at 1440p or 2160p/4K.
Since on most reviews you have the reviewer zooming in at 200x-400x zoom just to show a detail so small you'd never noticed while playing the game normally.
Hard disagree, they zoom in to make their point because, well, that's the point of the video, but many artefacts catch the eye with no zooming or pixel peeping whatsoever, and overall image detail also comes across in regular gameplay. Perhaps you'd never notice it, but I sure as hec do.

What bothers people varies of course, some people just can't stand TAA or get motion sick, personally it's shimmer and stair stepping that immediately grab my eye and break immersion, and as you can probably piece together from how highly I talk about it, it's something that DLAA/DLSS deals with incredibly well, image stability is unparalleled.
Two very different opinions - this just proves what I've been saying all along: whether you like AA, no AA, up-/downscaling, or whatever is up to your own personal taste, therefore it's pointless to argue about.

Lots of people also hate motion blur, but it doesn't bother me in most games, so I leave it on. Haters are welcome.

No it's not? I swear to you, ive never see togglable TAA, only gave that might have had it - but not sure - is Forza horizon 5. Every other game you either turn it OFF and have no AA or have to go with TAA. If that's what you mean by togglable, sure some games have it but turning it off means you have no AA. It's not really a solution.
Sure, whatever.

1701243677769.png


Let's just agree that it varies on a game-by-game basis.
 

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Okay folks - reply bans incoming.

Read the forum title. The topic is about games using too much Vram, or having too high requirements. Stop the DLSS/native good/bad debate and take it elsewhere.
 
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Okay folks
Mr. topic leader, allow me to report.
Conspiracy theory says that the games are optimized taking into account the new 16GB consoles (~12GB reserved as a kind of vRAM). The theory of the free market says that you have to be crazy to neglect the area <=8GB because that is where the majority of video card users are still placed, so a market that cannot be neglected. He also says that you cannot neglect nVidia's 85% market share and if nVidia has now decreed 8GB for 1080p, 12GB for 1440p and 16+GB for 4K, all game developers should take it into account for at least another two years.
My 8GB video card reports that it flies in 1080p and still manages decently in 1440p, and the reviews show that the 12GB of the old 6700XT is a decoration if, at maximum settings, the GPU sweats even in 1080p.

It's just a battle similar to the "16GB versus 32GB RAM" of 3-4 years ago.
 
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I don't accept that as a reason why a few drops of rain should make roads look like they're caked in ice.


I think the whole "water = mirror" concept looks pathetic, especially when there's no splashing, drainage, or any other effect that would show that water is actually a transparent liquid.

Like I said, I'm not against RT at all, but this kind of implementation looks like crap. Sorry, it's just my opinion.
Not only that, look at that artifacting of lighting behind the wheels of the car, or any contrasted edge with reflective surface behind it.

Its plain turd material, literally polished, even besides how 'out of place' it all looks in the scene that barely has clouds in the sky. No trace of that storm that blanked the streets hours earlier in the distance, either. Its a fine morning. Someone pissed all over the streets. Cigar?

What if we have it all wrong? What if Nvidia packs less VRAM into their GPUs because they know they don't have the horsepower to use it all. Just because AMD packs a bunch of VRAM on their low to midrange GPUs doesn't mean you still get good performance from it.. am I wrong?
But they do have the core power to push it all. I retired my GTX 1080 not because it was too slow but because it started stuttering in TW WH3, because that game eats 8GB at campaign start and then goes straight for lunch. I was running that game at 45-60 FPS at medium-high settings on that campaign map, at 3440x1440 no less.

Horsepower is never an issue on Nvidia. If you're short on horsepower on a good Nvidia card, you're also pushing bandwidth/memory limits. Whereas on AMD I do think and agree, some cards have been given too much VRAM. I think 6800XT could have gotten away with 12GB, if only just, for example. With 16GB its simply capable of lasting another 2 years if you accept somewhat lower FPS or settings. Texture quality is overall a pretty low FPS hit, compared to post processing effects that we often even prefer turning off or reducing. Because in the end, that's what quality settings are: FPS limiters. The VRAM baseline requirement for games though is already at well over 6GB even at the lowest quality. With more VRAM you simply have more room to play with pretty high texture settings (maxed) and turning off very expensive post processing to keep things playable. Whereas if you have to lower textures (or object detail, LOD, etc), it immediately hits the entire scene.

What struck me most about Nvidias moves in the last 4-5 gens was the sudden change in how they dealt with VRAM capacity, and then the plot obviously thickens when you see they add VRAM intensive RT to the mix. Consider that we went from Kepler 2-3GB to Maxwell 4-6GB (+50%) and then to Pascal with 8-11GB (another similar jump)... and then we got RT, we got some more cache and Turing gave us a 1080 equivalent 2060 with... 6GB. 2080ti stalled at the same 11GB as a much weaker 1080ti. Ampere made it even worse. Ada takes the fucking cake.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist here to read between the lines. This is all Nvidia. Not devs. Not some industry wide conspiracy with AMD playing the 'other side'. This is Nvidia trying to corner the market for a gen-to-gen upgrade need.
 
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wolf

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therefore it's pointless to argue about
I don't agree on that either lol, through discussion we all expand our understanding and hopefully learn something, if only perspective. I'm open minded about these things, and understand personal preferences, but also want to share my thoughts and experience with those who's differ from mine.

Now to try and be on topic, I played a fair bit of Alan Wake 2 last night and experimented with texture settings, it seems to be one of the games where the setting barely seems to matter, only the lowest visually appeared any different and all texture options had virtually the same allocation except low. I suppose certain scenarios and scenes might expose levels of texture swapping/pop in etc but I was unable to spot it during my gameplay session last night. Seems odd to me to have med/high/ultra all act basically the same, but I'm not complaining, the game looks phenomenal, partially also because one of the only two AA choices :)
 
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I don't agree on that either lol, through discussion we all expand our understanding and hopefully learn something, if only perspective. I'm open minded about these things, and understand personal preferences, but also want to share my thoughts and experience with those who's differ from mine.

Now to try and be on topic, I played a fair bit of Alan Wake 2 last night and experimented with texture settings, it seems to be one of the games where the setting barely seems to matter, only the lowest visually appeared any different and all texture options had virtually the same allocation except low. I suppose certain scenarios and scenes might expose levels of texture swapping/pop in etc but I was unable to spot it during my gameplay session last night. Seems odd to me to have med/high/ultra all act basically the same, but I'm not complaining, the game looks phenomenal, partially also because one of the only two AA choices :)
Sharing is cool - arguing is pointless. ;)

On topic: I think we live in the diminishing returns era of PC gaming. Smaller improvements are gonna come at bigger performance costs. More reason not to use ultra graphics, I guess. :)
 

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Sharing is cool - arguing is pointless. ;)
I suppose it can come across as argumentative, but people are on a scale of more or less stubborn too, so sometimes some persuasion is justified to try and help people understand something, or correct generalised statements or misinformation. As you probably know from me, I don't like language when discussing certain things that appear to frame personal beliefs/truths and preferences as universally true statements. EG "nobody likes this", "Nobody asked for this", "you'd never notice" - I only ask that the choice of words be more specific in certain cases as to make it clear that the individual feels this way, and doesn't appear to speak for everyone. And often I jump in if only to state as much, as this is a public facing forum with a heap of user+guest traffic, some might benefit from seeing a correction, or just being shown that some people subscribe to 'the other side of the coin'.
On topic: I think we live in the diminishing returns era of PC gaming. Smaller improvements are gonna come at bigger performance costs. More reason not to use ultra graphics, I guess. :)
100% agreed. We're so far along the way now that gigantic leaps in fidelity are rarer and rarer. I'm starting to think I'll want to get into VR to take my gaming immersion and 'presentation' to the next level.
 
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Games can use 500 gb of ram, that's fine. What's not fine is games using 500gb of ram while looking worse than games using 5. The best looking games of this gen aren't particularly vram intensive. The game that really dropped my jaw to the floor the last few years was Plague Tale, and my jaw dropped below the floor when I noticed vram usage is hovering between 4 and 6gb at 4k ultra. Some pretty badly optimized games require tons and tons of vram (TLOU, Hogwarts, forspoken, godfall etc.) and they just look worse than Plague Tale. And i cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that 95% of games that require tons of ram are sponsored by a specific company. You can call it coincidence, but whatever, it's a fact that it is the case.
 
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I'm starting to think I'll want to get into VR to take my gaming immersion and 'presentation' to the next level.
I would too if it wasn't so expensive. :(
 
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I suppose it can come across as argumentative, but people are on a scale of more or less stubborn too, so sometimes some persuasion is justified to try and help people understand something, or correct generalised statements or misinformation. As you probably know from me, I don't like language when discussing certain things that appear to frame personal beliefs/truths and preferences as universally true statements. EG "nobody likes this", "Nobody asked for this", "you'd never notice" - I only ask that the choice of words be more specific in certain cases as to make it clear that the individual feels this way, and doesn't appear to speak for everyone. And often I jump in if only to state as much, as this is a public facing forum with a heap of user+guest traffic, some might benefit from seeing a correction, or just being shown that some people subscribe to 'the other side of the coin'.

100% agreed. We're so far along the way now that gigantic leaps in fidelity are rarer and rarer. I'm starting to think I'll want to get into VR to take my gaming immersion and 'presentation' to the next level.
Aye thats why I also try to always post from my point of perspective only/sharing my personal experience with things cause I'm not a fan of generalizing.

Sharing is cool - arguing is pointless. ;)

On topic: I think we live in the diminishing returns era of PC gaming. Smaller improvements are gonna come at bigger performance costs. More reason not to use ultra graphics, I guess. :)

I was playing around with the ingame settings in Immortals of Aveum just now and the game only has Low-High-Ultra and tbh the difference is not even that big, I can't tell between high-ultra and even on the lowest its not as obvious like in older games where its a day-night difference if you use full low settings.
Vram usage also doesn't change much from what I noticed, going from high-ultra settings is like 10-15 fps drop in performance and then you gain about the same if you go full low from high so I just picked high and called it a day.

Games can use 500 gb of ram, that's fine. What's not fine is games using 500gb of ram while looking worse than games using 5. The best looking games of this gen aren't particularly vram intensive. The game that really dropped my jaw to the floor the last few years was Plague Tale, and my jaw dropped below the floor when I noticed vram usage is hovering between 4 and 6gb at 4k ultra. Some pretty badly optimized games require tons and tons of vram (TLOU, Hogwarts, forspoken, godfall etc.) and they just look worse than Plague Tale. And i cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that 95% of games that require tons of ram are sponsored by a specific company. You can call it coincidence, but whatever, it's a fact that it is the case.

Agree on Plague Tale Requiem, still the best looking game I've played since its relase and it wasn't destroying my system's resources either. 'great looking textures too'
I honestly wonder how would that engine hold up in a different genre, say a game with a bigger open world and whatnot.

Also kind of funny but not in a good way how TLOU had issues with 8GB cards even at 1080p when it was relased and now after all of the patches/updates you can even do 1440p high or 1080p ultra + the lower settings textures also look better than how they used to.
So 8GB could be still fine its more like the devs can't be arsed to optimize for it, or well not as much.
 
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Well we are reaching the end of 2023 and there are less than a handful of games which are using too much VRAM, not to mention those games are pretty far from being must-play. Needless to say the VRAM issue has been blown out of proportion in a typical fashion by Steve (AMD Unboxed channel).
 
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