The Official Thermal Interface Material thread

Borc · Dec 11, 2023

ShrimpBrime said:
This is exactly how you measure thermal conductivity. What is the rate of BTU/hr across the paste between 2 copper surfaces. You only need to know the thickness of the paste. You know the wattage input. You know copper thermal properties. We know the conductivity of water and air. You can calculate exactly how many BTU you NEED to move, that's the easy part. My 13700K pulls 235w at a full load. That's about 802BTU/hr, just a little more than half of my window air conditioning unit I chill loops with.

Did you watch the video from Gamers Nexus? Are you aware the number can be "tweaked" with unrealistic high temps? You need a bit more than what you are telling us. And how can you know the number isn't simply made up. It's obvious that most big manufacturers like Shin-Etsu, Honeywell, Deepcool, LairD, Dowsil, Akasa are in a moderate range of 5-8 W/mK. Could it be they are more honest and don't use inflationary numbers just for marketing reasons.

And to make it a little more complicated for you thermal impedance/resistance is more telling for most of our use cases but this number can be tweaked as well.

The most important specification is definitely the thermal impedance, which is measured in degrees Kin2 / W. This is an application specific measure of the ratio
the temperature difference between two mating surfaces to the steady-state heat flow through these surfaces. Due to the additional mounting pressure and the size of the area, the
thermal impedance typically decreases while increasing with TIM thickness.

The ability of a material to conduct heat regardless of its thickness is called thermal conductivity and is measured in W/mK. While TIMs can be compared to thermal conductivity values, this value does not indicate how good the material's ability is at minimizing contact resistance.

Choosing the right thermal interface material: paste, pad or foil

Knowing the needs of your application is key to selecting the correct thermal interface materials.

www.mueller-ahlhorn.com

There are two critical thermal performance characteristics:
Thermal Conductivity (TC) and Thermal Resistance (TR). In low bond line applications, thermal resistance dominates performance.
In high bond line applications, thermal conductivity dominates performance. In medium bond line there is a blended influence.

Thermal Interface Materials (TIM)

Nordson EFD thermal interface materials (TIM) provide reliable heat transfer over a longer time than most industrial thermal compounds.

www.nordson.com

NoiseBox · Dec 11, 2023

So, I'm not stranger to pasting CPUs and repasting them, but in the past I've used Arctic Silver 5 and called it good to go. Based on some websites I've read, AS% has been superseded by better pastes, and specifically Thermal Grizzly Hydronaut. I bought some off Amazon (a whopping 1 gram) and upgraded my CPU on my 2013 Mac Pro, from a E5-1620 v2 to a E5-2667 v2. Same TDP of 130watts, but even at idle the CPU sits at between 38-43 (with a Fan Control speed of 1300, max on these things is 1900) and it'll ramp up to 80 degrees with even modest games (minecraft with Sildur's Lite shaders)

So the question I have, is Hydronaut not that great, or did I somehow re-paste incorrectly? If you've ever seen a teardown of a 2013 Mac Pro (the infamous Trash Can Mac) it's pretty impossible to screw up reassembly and have the system work. Did I get a bad CPU, it was used after all, unsure if such a thing is possible, given the system passes stress tests and Intel's own Processor Diag Tool.

The system is running Windows 10 LTSC via bootcamp.

freeagent · Dec 11, 2023

I have heard it pumps out at 80c, which is the main reason why I never tried it.

oiawshboiwsahnoidaws · Dec 11, 2023

As long as a thermal paste is "good enough" there will be little difference between them at most 2 or 3°C from my testing
More likely the new (beefier) cpu just uses more power

Macro Device · Dec 11, 2023

Beginner Micro Device said:
@TipsyL @lexluthermiester @jayjr1105

View attachment 321149

...and these results are -4C on the junction and -2C on the hotspot. I heard that PTM7950 gets better over time so I'll play around and watch metrics again next week. Gonna lower the pressure (190 → 160 W) for now, 90s don't look so pleasant.

wNotyarD · Dec 11, 2023

Beginner Micro Device said:
View attachment 325092

Not getting worse is actually good news. Let's see in another couple of months if it stays stable.

Macro Device · Dec 11, 2023

wNotyarD said:
Not getting worse is actually good news.

In all fairness, I overclocked the GPU harder (new driver feels more stable) and got ~10 W more on average. Feels like I'm only limited by my 90 mm fans as they can't be faster than 1950 RPM and they don't really provide much CFM. The GPU was cooler under the previous 120 mm 2000 RPM ones.

ShrimpBrime · Dec 12, 2023

Borc said:
Did you watch the video from Gamers Nexus? Are you aware the number can be "tweaked" with unrealistic high temps? You need a bit more than what you are telling us. And how can you know the number isn't simply made up. It's obvious that most big manufacturers like Shin-Etsu, Honeywell, Deepcool, LairD, Dowsil, Akasa are in a moderate range of 5-8 W/mK. Could it be they are more honest and don't use inflationary numbers just for marketing reasons.

And to make it a little more complicated for you thermal impedance/resistance is more telling for most of our use cases but this number can be tweaked as well.

Choosing the right thermal interface material: paste, pad or foil

Knowing the needs of your application is key to selecting the correct thermal interface materials.

www.mueller-ahlhorn.com

Thermal Interface Materials (TIM)

Nordson EFD thermal interface materials (TIM) provide reliable heat transfer over a longer time than most industrial thermal compounds.

www.nordson.com

Though I appreciate the effort, this does not describe the methods manufacturers use for testing.

And no, I don't watch Linus's rival.

Nor do I watch DerBauers exotic car videos.... I mean his PC videos. Well not on a regular basis.

Was at EOCF when DerBauer was newbie. The shaving razor trick you see in his videos is something I was using back in 08' long before a delid tool was invented.

But to stipulate that manufacturers CAN and DO lie, blatantly for sure, I do not deny.

I'm looking for evidence that paste manufacturers test and the methods they use, or rather it was argued they don't at all and just throw us a number. Which is possible.

So far, we are not proving that manufacturers are not testing pastes......

80-watt Hamster · Dec 12, 2023

ShrimpBrime said:
Though I appreciate the effort, this does not describe the methods manufacturers use for testing.

And no, I don't watch Linus's rival.

Nor do I watch DerBauers exotic car videos.... I mean his PC videos. Well not on a regular basis.

Was at EOCF when DerBauer was newbie. The shaving razor trick you see in his videos is something I was using back in 08' long before a delid tool was invented.

But to stipulate that manufacturers CAN and DO lie, blatantly for sure, I do not deny.

I'm looking for evidence that paste manufacturers test and the methods they use, or rather it was argued they don't at all and just throw us a number. Which is possible.

So far, we are not proving that manufacturers are not testing pastes......

No one's claiming manufacturers aren't testing, but rather that published results between manufacturers are not directly comparable because the conditions under which the results are obtained are not published. It's like UTQG for tires: you can be confident a 700 Pirelli tire will last longer than a 600 Pirelli, but not necessarily a 600 Michelin. And that's with a published and mandated standard.

ShrimpBrime · Dec 12, 2023

80-watt Hamster said:
No one's claiming manufacturers aren't testing, but rather that published results between manufacturers are not directly comparable because the conditions under which the results are obtained are not published. It's like UTQG for tires: you can be confident a 700 Pirelli tire will last longer than a 600 Pirelli, but not necessarily a 600 Michelin. And that's with a published and mandated standard.

So what you're saying..... is the Corsair TM30 paste claiming 3.5w/mk is a misrepresentation of what could be outstanding AND better than grizzly paste but it might not last as long??? Wait what??

OK, here's what I am saying.

They test their paste between two copper surfaces.
Testing with X amount of Wattage.
Measuring the time it takes to heat up.
KNOWING the already calculated w/mk of the main ingredient of the paste.
Can take a fairly accurate measurement and advertise it.

I honestly don't think there's any other method of testing outside the intended use of Electronics Thermal Interface Materials.

Paste w/mk
pad w/mk
Ketchup w/mk.

"" quote "" Most pastes are about the same "" End Quote ""

No they ain't - Now I dip.
Peace!

80-watt Hamster · Dec 12, 2023

ShrimpBrime said:
So what you're saying..... is the Corsair TM30 paste claiming 3.5w/mk is a misrepresentation of what could be outstanding AND better than grizzly paste but it might not last as long??? Wait what??

OK, here's what I am saying.

They test their paste between two copper surfaces.
Testing with X amount of Wattage.
Measuring the time it takes to heat up.
KNOWING the already calculated w/mk of the main ingredient of the paste.
Can take a fairly accurate measurement and advertise it.

I honestly don't think there's any other method of testing outside the intended use of Electronics Thermal Interface Materials.

Paste w/mk
pad w/mk
Ketchup w/mk.

"" quote "" Most pastes are about the same "" End Quote ""

No they ain't - Now I dip.
Peace!

That is not what I am saying; it was merely an analogy. To spell it out directly, we can be confident that a 4.0 W/mK Corsair compound has superior thermal transfer to a 3.5 W/mK Corsair compound, but a 4.0 W/mK TG product could be equal, better or worse. Thermodynamics is complicated, and different test criteria can easily provide different results.

Shrek · Dec 12, 2023

I suspect the metal to thermal grease interface plays a role.

ShrimpBrime · Dec 12, 2023

80-watt Hamster said:
That is not what I am saying; it was merely an analogy. To spell it out directly, we can be confident that a 4.0 W/mK Corsair compound has superior thermal transfer to a 3.5 W/mK Corsair compound, but a 4.0 W/mK TG product could be equal, better or worse. Thermodynamics is complicated, and different test criteria can easily provide different results.

Thermodynamics is one of the many things humans have mastered.

So 4w/mk from both manufacturers should produce very similar results. And so the saying goes... all pastes are about the same....

If that saying is true, then it doesn't matter how the measurement was taken. Or the number provided doesn't matter either. And it was never tested.

That's what science is about though. Taking a measurement that gives results.

I'm fairly certain that 4w/mk would have a small margin of error between 2 pastes, but both are going to perform the same within that margin of error.

Not saying that it is not possible to have 2 pastes say the same w/mk but perform different, it just doesn't seem to happen like you are saying. I don't see people exclaim a 4w/mk paste performs better than another paste. What happens, people come and show pastes advertising a much higher w/mk, they have used and tested it for themselves against lower w/mk pastes and found the higher number works better.

Shrek · Dec 12, 2023

ShrimpBrime said:
Thermodynamics is one of the many things humans have mastered.

So 4w/mk from both manufacturers should produce very similar results. And so the saying goes... all pastes are about the same....

Thickness plays a very important role.

ShrimpBrime · Dec 12, 2023

Shrek said:
Thickness plays a very important role.

Yes actually it does. Part of the equation certainly.

So as I had stated back there.

Best to lap cpu and cooler and use liquid metal. It would be the equivalent to soldering the cooler to the cpu.

Lapping to reduce space and use a smaller amount of thermal interface material.

The suggested amount is a pea sized drop. That's because 2 surfaces that are not flat require that much to ensure proper fill of spaces. Be it a concave IHS plate or a bumped cooler surface.

Macro Device · Dec 12, 2023

ShrimpBrime said:
a pea sized drop.

I'm not 100% certain how big peas are where you live but in Russia, one pea worth of thermal paste is enough to serve about 3 and a half CPUs. Way too excessive for one and totally too inefficient if used on an average GPU (6700 XT/3070).

Not a huge fan of liquid metal (yet had no other option with my CPU) since it can short circuit the snot out of your components but yeah, it's darn efficient.

ShrimpBrime · Dec 12, 2023

Beginner Micro Device said:
View attachment 325184

I'm not 100% certain how big peas are where you live but in Russia, one pea worth of thermal paste is enough to serve about 3 and a half CPUs. Way too excessive for one and totally too inefficient if used on an average GPU (6700 XT/3070).

Not a huge fan of liquid metal (yet had no other option with my CPU) since it can short circuit the snot out of your components but yeah, it's darn efficient.

Haha, well I can't say it's an accurate description for everyone, but we could say a 2mm ball of paste instead.

Used 25mm wheel spacers on my mk4 jetta.

Watch all my temps in celsius....

But normally, I use a dial indicator to measure liner protrusion which measures thousands of an inch. Engine guys know what I'm talking about...

Count von Schwalbe · Dec 12, 2023

ShrimpBrime said:
Best to lap cpu and cooler and use liquid metal.

I suspect the person a couple of pages back that had bad results with thermal sheet would do well to follow this advice. Thermal sheet or even nothing at all can outperform the best of pastes if the surfaces are sufficiently smooth, though this is in practice very difficult to achieve.

For those arguing/discussing, this can be a good read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity_and_resistivity#Influencing_factors

Remember that pastes are a mixture of solid particles (metals and non-metals), liquids, and dissolved substances. My understanding of the K-value was that it was primarily for homogeneous substances; if so, then attempting to market a thermal paste based on its K-value (expressed in W/(M*K)) is at best misleading.

ShrimpBrime · Dec 12, 2023

Count von Schwalbe said:
I suspect the person a couple of pages back that had bad results with thermal sheet would do well to follow this advice. Thermal sheet or even nothing at all can outperform the best of pastes if the surfaces are sufficiently smooth, though this is in practice very difficult to achieve.

For those arguing/discussing, this can be a good read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity_and_resistivity#Influencing_factors

Remember that pastes are a mixture of solid particles (metals and non-metals), liquids, and dissolved substances. My understanding of the K-value was that it was primarily for homogeneous substances; if so, then attempting to market a thermal paste based on its K-value (expressed in W/(M*K)) is at best misleading.

True.

Would (should?) be stated as a coefficient of thermal conductivity. W/mk.

We aren't even touching on expansion or anything yet.

Does your mount get tighter after a good burn in?? It just might!

damric · Dec 14, 2023

Finally used up my last tube of mx-4. Was it really from 2019? I don't remember but the other tube before that didn't say 2019.

I use the MX stuff for most general purpose projects and save my expensive TIM for my main rig. Alas I ran out of MX-4 so now I ordered an 8g tube of MX-6. That stuff was cheap too.

Falkentyne · Dec 15, 2023

68Olds said:
I've been using JLJ TP-133 thermal paste between my AMD CPU & block and it seems to be working fine. Very affordable in 6G & up quantities too.

ShrimpBrime said:
13.9w/mk. That's really high for a paste! Grizzly I think is 12 or more. Nice. Might have to order me a tube! Yes, I think I'm going to!

Um....
Anyone notice anything similar between:

Amazon.com

and
https://www.amazon.com/JLJ-Compound-Processor-Performance-Interface/dp/B09MHVN3G2 ?

.......

Is it me or is that the exact same company?

ShrimpBrime · Dec 16, 2023

Falkentyne said:
Um....
Anyone notice anything similar between:

Amazon.com

and
https://www.amazon.com/JLJ-Compound-Processor-Performance-Interface/dp/B09MHVN3G2 ?

.......

Is it me or is that the exact same company?

I don't see it??

Manufacturer is different, make and models are different. What is the same?

Macro Device · Dec 16, 2023

Noticed dangerously high VRAM temperatures and decided to find out what's up with the thermal pads. One was misaligned and ultimately fixed, yet that screwed up my thermal paste on the die.

Found liquid metal and decided to go ham on GPU cooling. Results are... questionable.

GPU: RX 6700 XT, XFX SWFT309, 1900 RPM 90 mm case fans instead of too worn out stock fans.
Mean wattage: 190 W (probably about 240 W in total if we count all components of my video card, y'know these RDNA2 readings).
Ambient temperature: unknown, but tried to keep as much of the same as possible. Probably +15...17C (59...63F).

Way before, semi-noname cheapo paste: 79C junction, 100C hotspot.
Before, PTM7950: 76C junction, 94C hotspot.
Now, no-name liquid metal: 72C junction, 88C hotspot.

These readings were recorded after 30 minute long Cyberpunk 2077 gaming sessions at 4K High with FSR at Quality mode.

lexluthermiester · Dec 16, 2023

Falkentyne said:
Um....
Anyone notice anything similar between:

Amazon.com

and
https://www.amazon.com/JLJ-Compound-Processor-Performance-Interface/dp/B09MHVN3G2 ?

.......

Is it me or is that the exact same company?

Might be a sister company or a copy-cat company. Given the descriptions, it could go either way.

ShrimpBrime said:
I don't see it??

Manufacturer is different, make and models are different. What is the same?

Take a closer look.

68Olds · Dec 16, 2023

At the very least, the two companies are using the same marketing/advertising company.

Processor	AMD R7 5800X3D
Motherboard	Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero
Cooling	Thermalright Frozen Edge 360, 3x TL-B12 V2, 2x TL-B12 V1
Memory	2x8 G.Skill Trident Z Royal 3200C14, 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Black and White 3200 C14
Video Card(s)	Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC
Storage	WD SN850 1TB, SN850X 2TB, SN770 1TB
Display(s)	LG 50UP7100
Case	Fractal Torrent Compact
Audio Device(s)	JBL Bar 700
Power Supply	Seasonic Vertex GX-1000, Monster HDP1800
Mouse	Logitech G502 Hero
Keyboard	Logitech G213
VR HMD	Oculus 3
Software	Yes
Benchmark Scores	Yes

System Name	DLSS / YOLO-PC / FULLRETARD
Processor	i5-12400F / 10600KF / C2D E6750
Motherboard	Gigabyte B760M DS3H / Z490 Vision D / P5GC-MX/1333
Cooling	Laminar RM1 / Gammaxx 400 / 775 Box cooler
Memory	32 GB DDR4-3200 / 16 GB DDR4-3333 / 3 GB DDR2-700
Video Card(s)	RX 6700 XT / R9 380 2 GB / 9600 GT
Storage	A couple SSDs, m.2 NVMe included / 240 GB CX1 / 500 GB HDD
Display(s)	Compit HA2704 / MSi G2712 / non-existent
Case	Matrexx 55 / Junkyard special / non-existent
Audio Device(s)	Want loud, use headphones. Want quiet, use satellites.
Power Supply	Thermaltake 1000 W / Corsair CX650M / non-existent
Mouse	Don't disturb, cheese eating in progress...
Keyboard	Makes some noise. Probably onto something.
VR HMD	I live in real reality and don't need a virtual one.
Software	Windows 11 / 10 / 8

System Name	G-Station 1.17 FINAL
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 5700X3D
Motherboard	Gigabyte X470 Aorus Gaming 7 WiFi
Cooling	DeepCool AK620 Digital
Memory	Asgard Bragi DDR4-3600CL14 2x16GB
Video Card(s)	Sapphire PULSE RX 7900 XTX
Storage	240GB Samsung 840 Evo, 1TB Asgard AN2, 2TB Hiksemi FUTURE-LITE, 320GB+1TB 7200RPM HDD
Display(s)	Samsung 34" Odyssey OLED G8
Case	Thermaltake Level 20 MT
Audio Device(s)	Astro A40 TR + MixAmp
Power Supply	Cougar GEX X2 1000W
Mouse	Razer Viper Ultimate
Keyboard	Razer Huntsman Elite (Red)
Software	Windows 11 Pro

System Name	DLSS / YOLO-PC / FULLRETARD
Processor	i5-12400F / 10600KF / C2D E6750
Motherboard	Gigabyte B760M DS3H / Z490 Vision D / P5GC-MX/1333
Cooling	Laminar RM1 / Gammaxx 400 / 775 Box cooler
Memory	32 GB DDR4-3200 / 16 GB DDR4-3333 / 3 GB DDR2-700
Video Card(s)	RX 6700 XT / R9 380 2 GB / 9600 GT
Storage	A couple SSDs, m.2 NVMe included / 240 GB CX1 / 500 GB HDD
Display(s)	Compit HA2704 / MSi G2712 / non-existent
Case	Matrexx 55 / Junkyard special / non-existent
Audio Device(s)	Want loud, use headphones. Want quiet, use satellites.
Power Supply	Thermaltake 1000 W / Corsair CX650M / non-existent
Mouse	Don't disturb, cheese eating in progress...
Keyboard	Makes some noise. Probably onto something.
VR HMD	I live in real reality and don't need a virtual one.
Software	Windows 11 / 10 / 8

System Name	I don't name my rig
Processor	14700K
Motherboard	Asus TUF Z790
Cooling	Air/water/DryIce
Memory	DDR5 G.Skill Z5 RGB 6000mhz C36
Video Card(s)	RTX 4070 Super
Storage	980 Pro
Display(s)	Some LED 1080P TV
Case	Open bench
Audio Device(s)	Some Old Sherwood stereo and old cabinet speakers
Power Supply	Corsair 1050w HX series
Mouse	Razor Mamba Tournament Edition
Keyboard	Logitech G910
VR HMD	Quest 2
Software	Windows
Benchmark Scores	Max Freq 13700K 6.7ghz DryIce Max Freq 14700K 7.0ghz DryIce Max all time Freq FX-8300 7685mhz LN2

The Official Thermal Interface Material thread

Borc

Choosing the right thermal interface material: paste, pad or foil

Thermal Interface Materials (TIM)

NoiseBox

freeagent

Moderator

oiawshboiwsahnoidaws

Macro Device

wNotyarD

Macro Device

ShrimpBrime

Choosing the right thermal interface material: paste, pad or foil

Thermal Interface Materials (TIM)

80-watt Hamster

ShrimpBrime

80-watt Hamster

Shrek

ShrimpBrime

Shrek

ShrimpBrime

Macro Device

ShrimpBrime

Count von Schwalbe

Moderator

ShrimpBrime

damric

Falkentyne

ShrimpBrime

Macro Device

lexluthermiester

68Olds

System Name	Office
Processor	Ryzen 5600G
Motherboard	ASUS B450M-A II
Cooling	be quiet! Shadow Rock LP
Memory	16GB Patriot Viper Steel DDR4-3200
Video Card(s)	Gigabyte RX 5600 XT
Storage	PNY CS1030 250GB, Crucial MX500 2TB
Display(s)	Dell S2719DGF
Case	Fractal Define 7 Compact
Power Supply	EVGA 550 G3
Mouse	Logitech M705 Marthon
Keyboard	Logitech G410
Software	Windows 10 Pro 22H2

System Name	CyberPowerPC ET8070
Processor	Intel Core i5-10400F
Motherboard	Gigabyte B460M DS3H AC-Y1
Memory	2 x Crucial Ballistix 8GB DDR4-3000
Video Card(s)	MSI Nvidia GeForce GTX 1660 Super
Storage	Boot: Intel OPTANE SSD P1600X Series 118GB M.2 PCIE
Display(s)	Dell P2416D (2560 x 1440)
Power Supply	EVGA 500W1 (modified to have two bridge rectifiers)
Software	Windows 11 Home

System Name	Work Computer \| Unfinished Computer
Processor	Core i7-6700 \| Ryzen 5 5600X
Motherboard	Dell Q170 \| Gigabyte Aorus Elite Wi-Fi
Cooling	A fan? \| Truly Custom Loop
Memory	4x4GB Crucial 2133 C17 \| 4x8GB Corsair Vengeance RGB 3600 C26
Video Card(s)	Dell Radeon R7 450 \| RTX 2080 Ti FE
Storage	Crucial BX500 2TB \| TBD
Display(s)	3x LG QHD 32" GSM5B96 \| TBD
Case	Dell \| Heavily Modified Phanteks P400
Power Supply	Dell TFX Non-standard \| EVGA BQ 650W
Mouse	Monster No-Name $7 Gaming Mouse\| TBD

System Name	Main
Processor	Ryzen 5950x
Motherboard	B550 PG Velocita
Cooling	Water
Memory	Ballistix
Video Card(s)	RX 6900XT
Storage	T-FORCE CARDEA A440 PRO
Display(s)	MAG401QR
Case	QUBE 500
Audio Device(s)	Logitech Z623
Power Supply	LEADEX V 1KW
Mouse	Cooler Master MM710
Keyboard	Huntsman Elite
Software	11 Pro
Benchmark Scores	https://hwbot.org/user/damric/

System Name	Gamer
Processor	Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Motherboard	Gigabyte X570 Aorus Elite WIFI
Cooling	Apogee XL, MCR360, MCP655, Micro-rez
Memory	2x16GB G.Skill DDR4-3600 CL16
Video Card(s)	Red Dragon RX 6800 XT
Storage	WD SN850 1TB & SN750 1TB
Display(s)	LG 32GK650F-B 32" 1440p 144Hz
Case	Rocketfish (Lian Li) e-ATX
Audio Device(s)	Harman Kardon HK695 2.1
Power Supply	Seasonic Focus GM-750
Mouse	HP Gaming wired
Keyboard	Logitech G110 wired
VR HMD	HP WMR 1440^2
Software	Win10 Pro 64bit