US Government Wants Nuclear Plants to Offload AI Data Center Expansion

[A Computer Guy]

What the US has to do is to invest in maintaining its decrepit transport infrastructure.

Apparently it's too hard to build bridges nowadays.

Why would any of these companies go for one of the most expensive power sources out there?

Profit and politicians relatives need jobs too. If the money printer can go burrrr for big pharma and military industrial complex why not big energy? Pandora's money vault is busted wide open. If we are not careful we might see the eventual building of the energy bridge to nowhere. Paradoxically if you could power the AI then ask it - it might tell us what is likely to happen - but by then it will have already happened.

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To ensure I didn't stray off-topic I can see a possible ramification of this where if enough power stations go on line they might dump excess power generation into the grid. Grid systems might finally get the necessary TLC in turn. On the other hand prepare to receive bills from Microsoft, Google, and Amazon and prey social credit systems aren't tied to your power bill.

 

[Divide Overflow]

As long as this is fully automated and linked to the web, we should be fine.

 

[trsttte]

More like 95% until next generation and/or next technology.

You're both absolutely wrong. Nuclear can have a lot of production capacity but it also has a huge inertia - it takes a lot of time to ramp up and down. You can't put anywhere near your entire energy requirements on that type of production, that's just silly.

Nuclear fulfills the same purpose as coal (and a lot of natural gas power plants that replace them) did which is to serve as the base production capacity, the peaks are served with renewables and natural gas.

 

[dragontamer5788]

You're both absolutely wrong. Nuclear can have a lot of production capacity but it also has a huge inertia - it takes a lot of time to ramp up and down. You can't put anywhere near your entire energy requirements on that type of production, that's just silly.

Newer plants can ramp-up and ramp-down much more quickly actually.

The true issue is that its economically non-viable to ramp a nuclear plant. All nuclear plants have fixed-lifetimes for safety purposes, every minute the plant is "idle", is another minute of permanently lost income for the plant operators.

So... yes you're right, but for the wrong reasons. Today's plants absolutely will ramp up / ramp down if requested. But they don't want to. Whatever corporation makes these nuclear plants will want to make money.

Nuclear fulfills the same purpose as coal (and a lot of natural gas power plants that replace them) did which is to serve as the base production capacity, the peaks are served with renewables and natural gas.

Renewables have the same economic issues. All renewables have a fixed lifespan (hydro-dams must be replaced eventually, solar loses efficacy as it ages, wind turbines eventually fail). So renewables economically speaking "want to always be running".

Natural Gas is the correct technology for peaking. Natural Gas plants are very cheap, but the fuel is expensive. So "turning off the plant" saves a ton of money. (In contrast, renewables are high CapEx / low running costs, so "turning off the Solar Panel" is possible, but makes the "payback" time take much longer).

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Renewables also have other restrictions. Hydro must follow water-rights in many parts of the country (its dual-master. Either Hydro is saving water or its saving energy, its hard to do both). Wind comes and goes with the wind, and Solar comes and goes with the sun. So as a "baseload" generator, renewables leave much to be desired.

Nuclear is 100% going all the time (or at least, the builders of the plants want nuclear to be working 100%). Because of the constant output, nuclear is one of the best baseload generators possible.

 

[Wirko]

Given the explosive growth of AI servers, the only sufficient source of energy may be uncontrolled fission.

 

[FoulOnWhite]

Renewables also have other restrictions. Hydro must follow water-rights in many parts of the country (its dual-master. Either Hydro is saving water or its saving energy, its hard to do both). Wind comes and goes with the wind, and Solar comes and goes with the sun. So as a "baseload" generator, renewables leave much to be desired.

Nuclear is 100% going all the time (or at least, the builders of the plants want nuclear to be working 100%). Because of the constant output, nuclear is one of the best baseload generators possible.

This^

Most renewables are at the mercy of the sun, wind, or sea, Nuclear is not and could be run all the time, just a shame it got demonised so much and stupid countires got rid of most of them and went back to awful polluting fossil generation.

 

[trsttte]

Newer plants can ramp-up and ramp-down much more quickly actually.

Is much more quickly measured in minutes or hours? As far as I know it's still measured in hours so it's as good as if they were days.

Renewables have the same economic issues. All renewables have a fixed lifespan (hydro-dams must be replaced eventually, solar loses efficacy as it ages, wind turbines eventually fail). So renewables economically speaking "want to always be running".

Natural Gas is the correct technology for peaking. Natural Gas plants are very cheap, but the fuel is expensive. So "turning off the plant" saves a ton of money. (In contrast, renewables are high CapEx / low running costs, so "turning off the Solar Panel" is possible, but makes the "payback" time take much longer).

----------

Renewables also have other restrictions. Hydro must follow water-rights in many parts of the country (its dual-master. Either Hydro is saving water or its saving energy, its hard to do both). Wind comes and goes with the wind, and Solar comes and goes with the sun. So as a "baseload" generator, renewables leave much to be desired.

Nuclear is 100% going all the time (or at least, the builders of the plants want nuclear to be working 100%). Because of the constant output, nuclear is one of the best baseload generators possible.

You don't turn off solar or wind unless it's for maintenance (or safety) since all their power is basically free. Hydro can be On or negative On (pumping) to use whatever wind and solar are producing that's not needed. Any type of plant will want to always be running otherwise their owner is earning less but we're getting lost in technical details and getting at the same things.

 

[Denver]

There's two problems: you are concentrating energy production in a few capable sites and the companies involved on those markets are kind of morons: the 3 big wind turbine developers (ge, siemens and vestas) almost bankrupted themselves running margins into the ground while there's a boom in demand for their products. I don't know what's going on with Solar but given how underutilized it has been problably something similar. And this is before mentioning a myriad of other problems, lack of investment in storage technology to mitigate cyclical production, etc. Kind of a shitshow.

The iron-air battery sounds great but it's still very far from being a viable comercial solution unfortunately.

For what reason would it not be viable? Bill Gates and other big names have invested in this company. Not only is it viable, but a factory is already being built, in addition to large energy storage projects:

"The first of Form’s long-duration grid battery systems — a 150-megawatt-hour pilot project in Minnesota — is expected to go online later this year. Two larger 1000-megawatt-hour systems are slated for 2025, and a third in New York in 2026."

"Form reports a total direct investment of up to $760 million in the Weirton Form factory site. The factory anticipates producing 500 megawatts of batteries annually when in full operation."
Form Energy begins manufacturing long-duration, utility-scale batteries | 90.5 WESA

 

[FoulOnWhite]

When i am out on my group rides, i see so many wind turbines not spinning, even when they could or should be. so much for not turning it off.

 

[LabRat 891]

I've got 'less beef' with the whole nuclear energy thing
and
more an 'issue' with the sudden reversal of policy. Why this reason, why now?


Apologies for being 'political' but, it is history:
Bush and Obama (administrations) 'killed off' the 'small self-contained'/modular nuclear power generator.

Forget where (precisely), but there are (DoE, etc.) records for a small nuclear power generator being licensed for deployment in Alaska.
Long story short: It was wrapped up in red tape for decades, with both 'left and right' "administrations" futzing with the project.
edit: A reference point, from 2005

Alaska Town Seeks Reactor to Cut Costs of Electricity (Published 2005)

Galena, Alaska, which pays three times as much for electricity as national average, is considering building small nuclear reactor to cut cost by two-thirds (M)

www.nytimes.com

Oh. That's interesting...
Doing a quick interenet search, shows there's recent renewed interests in AK, USA for small nuclear power deployment.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Is much more quickly measured in minutes or hours? As far as I know it's still measured in hours so it's as good as if they were days.

63 MW per minute in this recent study.

Flexible Operation of Nuclear Power Plants Ramps Up (powermag.com)

Which is faster than a new natural gas plant (38MW/min).

Not that this feature would ever be used in large amounts (or should be used) by the nuclear power plan, because of economics. You really want to keep the nuclear power plant at 100% most of the time.

Hydro can be On or negative On (pumping) to use whatever wind and solar are producing that's not needed.

Depends on the installation.

Any Hydro plant on the Colorado River is bound by law to release a certain amount of water. It doesn't matter if "power isn't needed today", the water will] be released, because those Western-states have long-standing agreements on how much water flows.

This is a big deal because the mighty Colorado River is oversubscribed (the river no longer runs to the ocean, and hasn't run to the ocean for decades). So the only way all the towns downstream get the water is if all the Hydro-plants on the river release the legally-obligated water.

No one is going to install pumps on a Colorado River Hydro Plant, there's just not enough water. You'll break long-standing water-rights / water-management laws that go back decades if you do that.

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Not everywhere has that problem. But... the big Hoover Dam is a great example of a Hydro installation that serves the "Water Management" master, instead of the "Energy Management" master.

 

[Noci]

Nuclear energy is not controversial without a reason, it has long term implications that even with the present state of science we cannot oversee completely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

We live now, but we do have offspring and generations to come, just saying......
It may be a more environmental friendly alternative for fossil fuels on short term, but just because of ....... AI?

Skynet just has to have patience , no need to eliminate the human factor mankind is selfdestructive .

I'm not knowledgeable on this subject, just concerned prove me wrong.

 

[trsttte]

"The first of Form’s long-duration grid battery systems — a 150-megawatt-hour pilot project in Minnesota — is expected to go online later this year. Two larger 1000-megawatt-hour systems are slated for 2025, and a third in New York in 2026."

It's right there on your quote, pilot project. I hope it goes well, it's honestly the first time I hear about this technology and looks promising, but it's still in the testing phases and timelines shift all the time. Having billionaires is good to speed things up but doesn't give any guarantees, they can be duped like anyone else.

It may be a more environmental friendly alternative for fossil fuels on short term, but just because of ....... AI?

This might probably be a clever and well disguised April 1st thing, but energy comsumption is rising and we definitely want to get rid of the most dirty generation methods coal and oil (ideally gas as well but that one can be helpfull and easier to mitigate). As much as I'd love renewables to be the only solution I don't believe they are enough neither that there are smart investments being made towards making them so, until the next groundbreak like Nuclear Fusion, Nuclear Fission is what we have.

 

[Imouto]

Btw, the grid faces challenges due to its age and the increasing demand for electricity. Aging infrastructure, including transmission lines and substations, can lead to reliability issues and power outages.

And fires, lots of fires like the one that destroyed 19,000 buildings, killed 85 people and caused $16.6 billion in damages.

Camp Fire (2018) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mechtech]

Actual skynet is AI datacenters consuming all the resources........................

You don't turn off solar or wind unless it's for maintenance (or safety) since all their power is basically free. Hydro can be On or negative On (pumping) to use whatever wind and solar are producing that's not needed. Any type of plant will want to always be running otherwise their owner is earning less but we're getting lost in technical details and getting at the same things.

Not really. Pumping only applies specifically to pumping stations. Most hydro plants are not pumping stations and do not pump.

Typically, a hydro station is on (generating), or off or running in condense mode. In condense mode the generator is driven like a motor with power from the grid (synchronous condenser) and air is used to depress the water level, so the turbine is spinning in air. Then they adjust the field to supply VARs to the grid for stabilization. Most of North America is part of the BES (bulk electricity system).

North American power transmission grid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nuclear power should be more like 80% of the grid supply

Depends on where you live, I think France is over 70%, but economics and availability dictate what is used. If you live somewhere where the weather can get cold or very hot, you want a good mix of large reliable producers............think what happened to Texas a few years ago.

 

[Totally]

Eh, Instead of investing trillions in wasteful expenditures annually, redirecting just a fraction of those funds towards establishing solar panel and wind turbine installations across vast desert regions could be a transformative step. While there's much discourse about transitioning away from reliance on oil, they don't seem to be making an effort.

Yes, oil's pump-loving friends wouldn't like to see their main commodity lose value any faster.

Honeymoon phase has long since ended with Wind turbines, they're too costly both financially and environmentally. Until someone figures out howmto make them last longer and economically deal with the waste at the end of their service life or premature end, wind turbines even shouldn't be a consideration. The plug needs to be pulled on life support subsidies that wind turbines have been enjoying for far too long and instead divert that money to other unexplored or more promising alternatives.

Tl;Dr: IOW Wind in it's current form is not a renewable. The wind turbines themselves are the consumable. When they reach EOL is just a very expensive waste problem no one quite knows what to do with? E.g. Send to landfills? burn them? Attempt to repurpose/up cycle?

 

[the54thvoid]

When i am out on my group rides, i see so many wind turbines not spinning, even when they could or should be. so much for not turning it off.

That's usually because green is generating too much power for the shitty grid infrastructure. Once more grid capacity is created, more will spin. The problem is, the government hasn't made it easy enough to create greater capacity, the licences take forever to acquire.

 

[jigar2speed]

Hello SkyNet, whats up.

 

[Why_Me]

For what reason would it not be viable? Bill Gates and other big names have invested in this company. Not only is it viable, but a factory is already being built, in addition to large energy storage projects:

"The first of Form’s long-duration grid battery systems — a 150-megawatt-hour pilot project in Minnesota — is expected to go online later this year. Two larger 1000-megawatt-hour systems are slated for 2025, and a third in New York in 2026."

"Form reports a total direct investment of up to $760 million in the Weirton Form factory site. The factory anticipates producing 500 megawatts of batteries annually when in full operation."
Form Energy begins manufacturing long-duration, utility-scale batteries | 90.5 WESA

View attachment 341651

If Bill Gates invested in it then you know it's bad for humanity. Let the Europeans have the solar panels and bird killing windmills. Greta Thunberg can continue to be their Joan of Arc. Here in the US we want natural gas, nuclear and coal.

 

[S73fan]

Just like cryptocurrencies, the benefit is unclear but it consumes a lot of electricity, and this with the mini nuclear plants is an absolutely genius solution

 

[Denver]

Honeymoon phase has long since ended with Wind turbines, they're too costly both financially and environmentally. Until someone figures out howmto make them last longer and economically deal with the waste at the end of their service life or premature end, wind turbines even shouldn't be a consideration. The plug needs to be pulled on life support subsidies that wind turbines have been enjoying for far too long and instead divert that money to other unexplored or more promising alternatives.

Tl;Dr: IOW Wind in it's current form is not a renewable. The wind turbines themselves are the consumable. When they reach EOL is just a very expensive waste problem no one quite knows what to do with? E.g. Send to landfills? burn them? Attempt to repurpose/up cycle?

What are you talking about?
Modern wind turbines last for decades and basically everything is recyclable, unlike nuclear waste. The discussion gets funny when bird deaths are taken as an argument, especially after we have extinguished countless birds either by destroying their habitats or by hunting them directly as a sport.

It makes absolutely no sense not to support the creation of wind and solar farms to take advantage of vast, deserted areas.

 

[ThrashZone]

But yeah if the windmills fail off shore they dump them there
Land wise they seem to stock pile in west Texas hehe

 

[Bones]

I'm going to post links to a couple of recent vids on the subject with some concerns within these:

The Real Reason America Has Turned Its Back On Wind Power Energy - YouTube

Offshore Wind in Crisis! What Can We Learn? - YouTube

And here in the US:
Speaking of the grid, whatever happened to "Build Back Better"?
The money was eventually allocated for things like the grid but where are the results of it?
I haven't seen anything around here to that end.....

Build Back Better Act - Wikipedia

This is a problem everyone, everywhere faces and needs to ask about, not just here.
Things like this will pop up no matter where you are in the world and that's just the fact of it.
It's a really complicated mess and it shows.

 

[Denver]

I'm going to post links to a couple of recent vids on the subject with some concerns within these:

The Real Reason America Has Turned Its Back On Wind Power Energy - YouTube

Offshore Wind in Crisis! What Can We Learn? - YouTube

And here in the US:
Speaking of the grid, whatever happened to "Build Back Better"?
The money was eventually allocated for things like the grid but where are the results of it?
I haven't seen anything around here to that end.....

Build Back Better Act - Wikipedia

This is a problem everyone, everywhere faces and needs to ask about, not just here.
Things like this will pop up no matter where you are in the world and that's just the fact of it.
It's a really complicated mess and it shows.

Your post highlights that renewable energy implementations suffer from poor planning, evident inadequate grid preparation and the absence of a modern recycling plan for turbines, leaving them without a suitable destination after decades of service. This is what taxpayers receive: subpar service.

2021> Siemens Gamesa pioneers wind circularity: launch of world’s first recyclable wind turbine blade for commercial use offshore

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Watched field of dreams to much hehe