Why everyone say Zen 5 is bad ?

Zach_01 · Aug 14, 2024

yfn_ratchet said:
Hmh. It might be that AMD was in a bit of a rush to get these out the door right near the end, especially with the misprint whoopsie and the scattered performance characteristics. By all means, it could be that over time and with a lot of tweaking these CPUs will begin to form more of a gap with Zen 4. Fingers crossed that the Zen 5 go-around (I doubt they'll call it Ryzen 10k, maybe A-100 or something) comes with an updated IOD along with the whole iGPU thing they do.

Perhaps windows and some compilers may need upgrade and tuning for them too...
Yeah I really hope that Zen6 will bring something significant better on the AM5, or else it will be a platform with bitter taste.

Ruru · Aug 14, 2024

azrael said:
Doesn't the 9700X give you 7700X performance at 7700 efficiency?

People waited for a Zen3 -> Zen3 X3D type of an uplift so they say that Zen5 sucks.

Hardware these days uses hella lot of power so when even once a company releases something efficient, then it's a bad thing :laugh:

AusWolf · Aug 15, 2024

Ruru said:
Hardware these days uses hella lot of power so when even once a company releases something efficient, then it's a bad thing

That's not the case here. The 7700 non-X was widely celebrated for its efficiency. The 9700X offers nothing on top of it except for faster AVX-512 which 99% of users don't need, and is more expensive. There's nothing for me to celebrate here, that's all.

igormp · Aug 15, 2024

Zach_01 said:
Perhaps windows and some compilers may need upgrade and tuning for them too...
Yeah I really hope that Zen6 will bring something significant better on the AM5, or else it will be a platform with bitter taste.

May also be an issue with Windows' scheduler, given how better those perform on Linux.

For productivity those are really amazing CPUs, and really give a glimpse on how amazing Epyc Turin is going to be (an even more efficient since it's going to be on N3 instead of N4).

igormp · Aug 15, 2024

AusWolf said:
The 9700X offers nothing on top of it except for faster AVX-512 which 99% of users don't need

I know this won't relate at all to games (so most users here won't care still), but the 9950x with AVX-512 OFF is able to beat the 7950x with AVX-512 enabled in some tests:

Quantifying The AVX-512 Performance Impact With AMD Zen 5 - Ryzen 9 9950X Benchmarks Review - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

For some some other tests, both are practically equal with AVX-512 off, which just shows how the improvements for SSE were nil (which is widely used in games), as already shown by the y-cruncher creator:

Zen 5 is a great pick for productivity if one is not on AM5 already (otherwise it only makes sense for really specific scenarios), and not a good pick for games, but I don't think that's any news.

When the 7700x came out it also didn't make any sense given the pricing compared to the 5800x3D (and specially because you had the entire cost of changing platforms), and only started to make sense after prices started to drop and when the 7800x3D came to be (for gamers). Once the 9800x3D comes out it'll make sense for AM4 gamers to upgrade, and the non-x3D models will likely drop in price as well.

Lost_Troll · Aug 15, 2024

Did you see the latest from Hardware Unboxed and the issue with Windows 11 and the admin account? I really do think it is microcode/driver and BIOS issues that are causing allot of the performance issues. I also think that over time, these will be fixed.

Once everything is fixed, I guess there will have to be a revisit of the performance of Zen 5 by the looks of it.

529th · Aug 15, 2024

Just seen that YT vid and people have to remind themselves that there is a higher risk/vulnerability when using admin mode to malware etc. I would not use an admin account on a daily driver machine. Honestly I'm not even considering it for my gaming machine.

thesmokingman · Aug 15, 2024

529th said:
Just seen that YT vid and people have to remind themselves that there is a higher risk/vulnerability when using admin mode to malware etc. I would not use an admin account on a daily driver machine. Honestly I'm not even considering it for my gaming machine.

The admin account is not important, it's the bug that will likely be fixed in an update. No one is suggesting to use that account daily lol.

529th · Aug 15, 2024

Honestly I don't think it's a bug. I think it's a security measure by Microsoft for AMD due to chip architect. But I'm just speculating.

agent_x007 · Aug 15, 2024

Lost_Troll said:
Did you see the latest from Hardware Unboxed and the issue with Windows 11 and the admin account? I really do think it is microcode/driver and BIOS issues that are causing allot of the performance issues. I also think that over time, these will be fixed.
Once everything is fixed, I guess there will have to be a revisit of the performance of Zen 5 by the looks of it.

I wonder if "run as Admin" would also work...

DemonicRyzen666 · Aug 15, 2024

According to everyone "Zen 5" Should be called "Zendozer", cause this almost exactly how "Bulldozer" went it was a lot faster on Linux than windows. It regressed massively on windows.
There are only one of two issues that could be wrong with Zen 5. One either a really terrible microcode update or two a design problem. Not sure which one because Bulldozer regressed in IPC, but Zen 5's built up IPC, did gain IPC. Even with the enlarged Front end.

My though was that Zen 4 was at its maximum possible theoretically IPC gains from the base of the Zen core design. So I think this whole ground up design is like a new starting point for Zen while keeping some parts, ideas & changing to new parts, ideas. So they break the wall of the IPC limit on the original Zen core design.

Shakallia · Aug 15, 2024

The admin account bug is not exclusive to Zen 5, the 7700X is affected and saw a similar performance uplift..Its all in the video of Hardware Unboxed.

Seriously, that's quite pathetic from AMD, ZEN 5 is really bad, Gamers Nexus also made a video pointing out that Zen 5 is not as efficient as it is rumored to be, it really is a case by case basis.

That's really a generation to skip, even for people buying a new machine, as Zen 4 is way cheaper and performs roughly as good, and not that far energy efficiency wise.

When it's bad, it's bad.

And AMD trying to find any excuse post release to justify the lack of performance increase is really disappointing. They lose some credit to me, and surely to larger amount of people, due to that lack of transparency and how they overhyped those new cpu's, while in fact they knew it would be disappointing, they clearly take people for idiots.

oxrufiioxo · Aug 15, 2024

Lost_Troll said:
Did you see the latest from Hardware Unboxed and the issue with Windows 11 and the admin account? I really do think it is microcode/driver and BIOS issues that are causing allot of the performance issues. I also think that over time, these will be fixed.

Once everything is fixed, I guess there will have to be a revisit of the performance of Zen 5 by the looks of it.

It changes things by 1-2% because the bug also affects Zen 4 so I doubt the conclusion will change. It might also be degrading intel gaming performance.

Amd royally botched this launch there is no fixing it outside of dropping prices to at least Zen 4 current $$$.

For the 4% of people rocking Linux it's an ok generation I guess.....

Shakallia said:
The admin account bug is not exclusive to Zen 5, the 7700X is affected and saw a similar performance uplift..Its all in the video of Hardware Unboxed.

Seriously, that's quite pathetic from AMD, ZEN 5 is really bad, Gamers Nexus also made a video pointing out that Zen 5 is not as efficient as it is rumored to be, it really is a case by case basis.

That's really a generation to skip, even for people buying a new machine, as Zen 4 is way cheaper and performs roughly as good, and not that far energy efficiency wise.

When it's bad, it's bad.

And AMD trying to find any excuse post release to justify the lack of performance increase is really disappointing. They lose some credit to me, and surely to larger amount of people, due to that lack of transparency and how they overhyped those new cpu's, while in fact they knew it would be disappointing, they clearly take people for idiots.

I agree, if this was a 12 month refresh like 14th gen it'd be fine if a bit underwhelming but it's supposed to be a proper generation 2 years later with prices that don't make sense given the perfomance. People were able to buy better gaming and application performance per $$$ for a long time now.

Even the 9950X is less impressive than I suspected and the 9900X cost more than I paid for my 7950X3D smh.

mäggäri · Aug 15, 2024

Should I buy Snapdragon Elite X laptop, since it seems to have best performance and efficiency of them all? AMD is no match, nor Apple. Apple gets charged 2 times from 0 to 100%, AMD 3 times, while the battery from SD Elite X runs from 100%->0....

R-T-B · Aug 15, 2024

mäggäri said:
Should I buy Snapdragon Elite X laptop, since it seems to have best performance and efficiency of them all? AMD is no match, nor Apple. Apple gets charged 2 times from 0 to 100%, AMD 3 times, while the battery from SD Elite X runs from 100%->0....

I think you should stick to the topic.

Tartaros · Aug 15, 2024

Onasi said:
It's an iterative marathon, not a sprint where TSMC beats their head against the wall trying to instantly produce AD102 sized chips with yields of maybe a couple per wafer.

I don't know what the guy you are replying thinks wafer manufacturing is, but it sounds like he believes TSMC engineers put hot silicon in a pastry bag with a 2nm nozzle and they call the engineer who uses the bag to make processors "Master Chef". He is a 67 year old canadian french dude that used to have a patisserie in Quebec and was scouted by TMSC for having very steady hands, but he is getting old and that's why node shrinking has been slowing throughout the years. Like, he doesn't understand why AMD doesn't scout a younger master pastry baker with very steady hands themselves.

SL2 · Aug 15, 2024

I wonder how this affects the release date for 3D variants, not that I've heard of one anyway.

HTC · Aug 15, 2024

SL2 said:
I wonder how this affects the release date for 3D variants, not that I've heard of one anyway.

They should have used this launch to start getting rid of non X variants: have just the X and the X3D.

In fact, in their "shoes", i'd actually "lose" the X version, and have the non X and a "new" 3D (without the X) version instead.

Missed opportunity, IMO ...

ShrimpBrime · Aug 15, 2024

My kid has a 5600G. B450-I Strix.
I have a 14100F and a B660 board I could give him.

He's running a 6700 XT. But it seems to lack CPU horse power.
Almost all my rigs at home are AM4 except what's on the bench.
Should I upgrade him from 5600G to 9700X (or other)
OR Should I just downgrade him on core count (for now, upgrade cpu later) but have significant single core uplift.
The 14100F is a 4 core 8 threaded part.

I'm on the fence because of the reads here. I just caught up to the last 4 pages. Honestly not sure what path to take. He doesn't complain, but I try to keep him competitive with his online buddies hardware/ They play, Brick Rigs, and BeamNG, and MudRunner.... pretty much all the driving games except racing simulators. edit: 1440P curved wide screen

Another thought, would be sell the 14100F and some other various pieces to build a new AMD rig.

Is the 9700X worth it or not, even looking at a few months, Lets say Xmas gift??? I appreciate thoughts and ideas!

oxrufiioxo · Aug 15, 2024

ShrimpBrime said:
Is the 9700X worth it or not, even looking at a few months, Lets say Xmas gift??? I appreciate thoughts and ideas!

Currently no, by December hard to say if AMD can fix the scheduling and win admin bs by then and drop 50-60 off the price maybe depending on what the Arrow Lake i5 looks like and it's platform cost.

evernessince · Aug 15, 2024

ShrimpBrime said:
Is the 9700X worth it or not, even looking at a few months, Lets say Xmas gift??? I appreciate thoughts and ideas!

If you have 9700X money you should just get him a 7800X3D. Same price but significantly faster in games and more efficient.

Lost_Troll said:
Did you see the latest from Hardware Unboxed and the issue with Windows 11 and the admin account? I really do think it is microcode/driver and BIOS issues that are causing allot of the performance issues. I also think that over time, these will be fixed.

Once everything is fixed, I guess there will have to be a revisit of the performance of Zen 5 by the looks of it.

Please watch the video in it's entirely, it clearly points out that the issue affects the 7000 series as well. Any gains from a fix are therefore moot in the performance comparison.

Even if we assume best case scenario for the 9700X where it eventually matches Linux performance you are still only talking about a decent uplift in some server / workstation tasks that mean nothing to the vast majority of end users. Certainly AMD was targeting the enterprise with this generation, I just have no idea why they tried to pretend as if there was also a nice uplift for regular consumers as well.

It also doesn't help that there is zero improvement to energy efficiency efficiency so any performance gains you might get are coming at increased power usage.

Zach_01 · Aug 15, 2024

oxrufiioxo said:
Currently no, by December hard to say if AMD can fix the scheduling and win admin bs by then and drop 50-60 off the price maybe depending on what the Arrow Lake i5 looks like.

That^^ or maybe by then some Zen5 6/8core X3D parts may appear too.
If so also depends on price and performance gains over regular non3D variants.

ShrimpBrime · Aug 15, 2024

evernessince said:
If you have 9700X money you should just get him a 7800X3D. Same price but significantly faster in games and more efficient.

Hey, that's not a bad idea at all! I will watch the prices of the things for a while then for sure.

Looks like the 7800X3D blasts his 5600G by easily 20%. I think that's what he needs for sure. BeamNG needs them clock cycles for all the damn AI cars he spawns. Says it gets bad after 12 cars spawned XD.

oxrufiioxo · Aug 15, 2024

ShrimpBrime said:
Hey, that's not a bad idea at all! I will watch the prices of the things for a while then for sure.

Looks like the 7800X3D blasts his 5600G by easily 20%. I think that's what he needs for sure. BeamNG needs them clock cycles for all the damn AI cars he spawns. Says it gets bad after 12 cars spawned XD.

Shame the price has jumped 40-60 usd thanks to Zen 5 being so awesome not long ago you could get it for $299-329.

If you live near a microcenter it'll be your best bet they have pretty fantastic board/cpu deals.

ShrimpBrime · Aug 15, 2024

oxrufiioxo said:
Shame the price has jumped 40-60 usd thanks to Zen 5 being so awesome not long ago you could get it for $299-329.

If you live near a microcenter it'll be your best bet they have pretty fantasy board/cpu deals.

Not a big deal. It's all within wallet grasp either way. Not like a 14700K was cheap haha. I could just DryIce this thing on a new board and give him that instead. Then build ME a new AMD rig!!

Just shocked AMD 9700X performance. I mean should we expect it to be faster than a 7800X3D in all retrospect?

System Name	PC on since Aug 2019, 1st CPU R5 3600 + ASUS ROG RX580 8GB >> MSI Gaming X RX5700XT (Jan 2020)
Processor	Ryzen 9 5900X (July 2022), 220W PPT limit, 80C temp limit, CO -6-14, +50MHz (up to 5.0GHz)
Motherboard	Gigabyte X570 Aorus Pro (Rev1.0), BIOS F39b, AGESA V2 1.2.0.C
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System Name	4K-gaming / media-PC
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VR HMD	Oculus Rift CV1
Software	Windows 11 Pro / Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores	They run Crysis

System Name	Nebulon B
Processor	AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D
Motherboard	MSi PRO B650M-A WiFi
Cooling	be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Memory	2x 24 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR5-4800
Video Card(s)	AMD Radeon RX 6750 XT 12 GB
Storage	2 TB Corsair MP600 GS, 2 TB Corsair MP600 R2
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Power Supply	Seasonic Prime GX-750
Mouse	Logitech MX Master 2S
Keyboard	Logitech G413 SE
Software	Bazzite (Fedora Linux) KDE

Processor	5950x
Motherboard	B550 ProArt
Cooling	Fuma 2
Memory	4x32GB 3200MHz Corsair LPX
Video Card(s)	2x RTX 3090
Display(s)	LG 42" C2 4k OLED
Power Supply	XPG Core Reactor 850W
Software	I use Arch btw

Processor	5950x
Motherboard	B550 ProArt
Cooling	Fuma 2
Memory	4x32GB 3200MHz Corsair LPX
Video Card(s)	2x RTX 3090
Display(s)	LG 42" C2 4k OLED
Power Supply	XPG Core Reactor 850W
Software	I use Arch btw

System Name	Spam
Processor	i9-12900K PL1=125 TA=56 PL2=288
Motherboard	MSI MAG B660M Mortar WiFi DDR4
Cooling	Scythe Kaze Flex 120mm ARGB Fans x1 / Alphacool Eisbaer 360
Memory	Mushkin Red Line DDR4 4000 16Gb x2 18-22-22-42 1T
Video Card(s)	Sapphire Pulse RX 7900 XT
Storage	Team Group MP33 512Mb / 1Tb
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Case	Lan-Li A3
Audio Device(s)	Real Tek on Board Audio
Power Supply	EVGA SuperNOVA 850 GM
Mouse	M910-K
Keyboard	K636CLO
Software	WIN 11 Pro

Processor	AMD 5900x
Motherboard	Asus x570 Strix-E
Cooling	Hardware Labs
Memory	G.Skill 4000c17 2x16gb
Video Card(s)	RTX 3090
Storage	Sabrent
Display(s)	Samsung G9
Case	Phanteks 719
Audio Device(s)	Fiio K5 Pro
Power Supply	EVGA 1000 P2
Mouse	Logitech G600
Keyboard	Corsair K95

System Name	BOX
Processor	Core i7 6950X @ 4,26GHz (1,28V)
Motherboard	X99 SOC Champion (BIOS F23c + bifurcation mod)
Cooling	Thermalright Venomous-X + 2x Delta 38mm PWM (Push-Pull)
Memory	Patriot Viper Steel 4000MHz CL16 4x8GB (@3240MHz CL12.12.12.24 CR2T @ 1,48V)
Video Card(s)	Titan V (~1650MHz @ 0.77V, HBM2 1GHz, Forced P2 state [OFF])
Storage	WD SN850X 2TB + Samsung EVO 2TB (SATA) + Seagate Exos X20 20TB (4Kn mode)
Display(s)	LG 27GP950-B
Case	Fractal Design Meshify 2 XL
Audio Device(s)	Motu M4 (audio interface) + ATH-A900Z + Behringer C-1
Power Supply	Seasonic X-760 (760W)
Mouse	Logitech RX-250
Keyboard	HP KB-9970
Software	Windows 10 Pro x64

System Name	S.L.I + RTX research rig
Processor	Ryzen 7 5800X 3D.
Motherboard	MSI MEG ACE X570
Cooling	Corsair H150i Cappellx
Memory	Corsair Vengeance pro RGB 3200mhz 32Gbs
Video Card(s)	2x Dell RTX 2080 Ti in S.L.I
Storage	Western digital Sata 6.0 SDD 500gb + fanxiang S660 4TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2
Display(s)	HP X24i
Case	Corsair 7000D Airflow
Power Supply	EVGA G+1600watts
Mouse	Corsair Scimitar
Keyboard	Cosair K55 Pro RGB

Processor	Ryzen 7 5800X
Motherboard	Asus Rog Strix X570E
Cooling	Noctua NHD-15S
Memory	Gskill Trident 3600 4x8Gb
Video Card(s)	Inno3d 4070 TI
Storage	1TB + 2 TB SSD Samsung 980 pro + Toshiba 18TB
Display(s)	MSI MAG274QRF-QD
Case	Fractal Torrent
Audio Device(s)	Creative Soundblaster AE-9
Power Supply	BeQuiet Straight power 850W
Software	Windows 10 Pro

System Name	His & Hers
Processor	R7 5800X/ R7 7950X3D Stock
Motherboard	X670E Aorus Pro X/ROG Crosshair VIII Hero
Cooling	Corsair h150 elite/ Corsair h115i Platinum
Memory	Trident Z5 Neo 6000/ 32 GB 3200 CL14 @3800 CL16 Team T Force Nighthawk
Video Card(s)	Evga FTW 3 Ultra 3080ti/ Gigabyte Gaming OC 4090
Storage	lots of SSD.
Display(s)	A whole bunch OLED, VA, IPS.....
Case	011 Dynamic XL/ Phanteks Evolv X
Audio Device(s)	Arctis Pro + gaming Dac/ Corsair sp 2500/ Logitech G560/Samsung Q990B
Power Supply	Seasonic Ultra Prime Titanium 1000w/850w
Mouse	Logitech G502 Lightspeed/ Logitech G Pro Hero.
Keyboard	Logitech - G915 LIGHTSPEED / Logitech G Pro

System Name	Pioneer
Processor	Ryzen R9 9950X
Motherboard	GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling	Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory	64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s)	XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage	Intel 905p Optane 960GB boot, +2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s)	55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case	Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s)	TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply	FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse	Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard	WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches + PBT DS keycaps
Software	Gentoo Linux x64 / Windows 11 Enterprise IoT 2024

System Name	Rectangulote
Processor	Core I9-9900KF
Motherboard	Asus TUF Z390M
Cooling	Alphacool Eisbaer Aurora 280 + Eisblock RTX 3090 RE + 2 x 240 ST30
Memory	32 GB DDR4 3600mhz CL16 Crucial Ballistix
Video Card(s)	KFA2 RTX 3090 SG
Storage	WD Blue 3D 2TB + 2 x WD Black SN750 1TB
Display(s)	2 x Asus ROG Swift PG278QR / Samsung Q60R
Case	Corsair 5000D Airflow
Audio Device(s)	Evga Nu Audio + Sennheiser HD599SE + Trust GTX 258
Power Supply	Corsair RMX850
Mouse	Razer Naga Wireless Pro / Logitech MX Master
Keyboard	Keychron K4 / Dierya DK61 Pro
Software	Windows 11 Pro

System Name	HTC's System
Processor	Ryzen 5 5800X3D
Motherboard	Asrock Taichi X370
Cooling	NH-C14, with the AM4 mounting kit
Memory	G.Skill Kit 16GB DDR4 F4 - 3200 C16D - 16 GTZB
Video Card(s)	Sapphire Pulse 6600 8 GB
Storage	1 Samsung NVMe 960 EVO 250 GB + 1 3.5" Seagate IronWolf Pro 6TB 7200RPM 256MB SATA III
Display(s)	LG 27UD58
Case	Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C
Audio Device(s)	Onboard
Power Supply	Corsair TX 850M 80+ Gold
Mouse	Razer Deathadder Elite
Software	Ubuntu 20.04.6 LTS

System Name	I don't name my rig
Processor	14700K
Motherboard	Asus TUF Z790
Cooling	Air/water/DryIce
Memory	DDR5 G.Skill Z5 RGB 6000mhz C36
Video Card(s)	RTX 4070 Super
Storage	980 Pro
Display(s)	Some LED 1080P TV
Case	Open bench
Audio Device(s)	Some Old Sherwood stereo and old cabinet speakers
Power Supply	Corsair 1050w HX series
Mouse	Razor Mamba Tournament Edition
Keyboard	Logitech G910
VR HMD	Quest 2
Software	Windows
Benchmark Scores	Max Freq 13700K 6.7ghz DryIce Max Freq 14700K 7.0ghz DryIce Max all time Freq FX-8300 7685mhz LN2

Processor	Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard	ASRock X670E Taichi
Cooling	Noctua NH-D15 Chromax
Memory	32GB DDR5 6000 CL30
Video Card(s)	MSI RTX 4090 Trio
Storage	Too much
Display(s)	Acer Predator XB3 27" 240 Hz
Case	Thermaltake Core X9
Audio Device(s)	Topping DX5, DCA Aeon II
Power Supply	Seasonic Prime Titanium 850w
Mouse	G305
Keyboard	Wooting HE60
VR HMD	Valve Index
Software	Win 10

Why everyone say Zen 5 is bad ?

S.T.A.R.S.