Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[KLiKzg]

Not to rain on the parade, but I think we have established hydrogen at home will not work. Permits for the creation and storage will be near impossible and the system is very expensive. All the while we have BEVs that are more efficient and just plug in.

"Just plug-in" they say...like "fire-n-forget"!

Well, at least FnF works...JPI does not, here is some home-work:

BMW i3 Completely Destroyed By Fire | Carscoops

Owners of the "green" German hatchback can relax: this i3 did not suffer from the spontaneous combustion case that affects not a few supercars; its demise

www.carscoops.com

We can also put american car, if you would like?!

 

[leonavis]

An article from 2014 about a battery-explosion. Wow. I hope you use no Lithium-Ion-batteries whatsoever.

(Or did I miss the parody?)

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Not to rain on the parade, but I think we have established hydrogen at home will not work. Permits for the creation and storage will be near impossible and the system is very expensive. All the while we have BEVs that are more efficient and just plug in.

I was thinking that the storage and creation would be built into the vehicle; after all, any hydrogen powered vehicle has storage.

The trouble with batteries, the faster they charge/discharge, the worse the energy density. We are now into the iteration stage of limited gains per generation - same with things like CPUs. It will take a lot of effort to come up with something revolutionary that will be cost competitve and have clear benefits.

There are people working on it for sure. I just don't expect to see them driving around for a long while yet.

 

[KLiKzg]

An article from 2014 about a battery-explosion. Wow. I hope you use no Lithium-Ion-batteries whatsoever.

(Or did I miss the parody?)

Here is one, from a factory where I used to work: https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/crn...skupocjena-testna-baterija-za-vozila-15015739
(text is on Croatian)

Do you want some newer ones?

I was thinking that the storage and creation would be built into the vehicle; after all, any hydrogen powered vehicle has storage.

The trouble with batteries, the faster they charge/discharge, the worse the energy density. We are now into the iteration stage of limited gains per generation - same with things like CPUs. It will take a lot of effort to come up with something revolutionary that will be cost competitve and have clear benefits.

There are people working on it for sure. I just don't expect to see them driving around for a long while yet.

Nice, but with fuel-cell you can't have directly "reactor to engine" configuration...so batteries are a must in fuel-cell vehicle!

Faster charge/discharge does not need to have less energy density...this is wrong!
We are now into preserving as much charge, as we can...as Li-ion main enemy is "dandruff".

Solution for dandruff can't be found, for now...so there is an option:

• SSB, as promising future
• switch from Li to Na, with sacrifice to less energy density
• new Zn batteries, which does not loose SoC & can be charged/discharged more quickly....but not much capacity

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

Faster charge/discharge does not need to have less energy density...this is wrong!
We are now into preserving as much charge, as we can...as Li-ion main enemy is "dandruff".

Perhaps the issue was heat; I was speaking from my limited experience with small-scale batteries. Higher C ratings meant larger batteries for the same capacity.

So be it.

Either way, charging isn't anywhere as fast as fueling; thus the practical range of a BEV is limited. This is not an issue for those who simply commute, perhaps. But those who drive about for a living or make a habit of road tripping it becomes challenging.

 

[leonavis]

Do you want some newer ones?

No, I wanted to direct you to the fact that Lithium Ion Batteries have been prone to explode when handled badly since they were introduced. They was a whole scare about exploding vapes a while back. The chance of a burning-up battery in an electric car is, due to it being protected very well (just as in modern vapes), very slim. Naturally, if a battery catches fire, that's pretty bad. But it does not happen often, even if you want to suggest that with your examples (two, by now). There is no bigger danger coming from an electric vehicle than a classical car. Indeed, according to Automobile Insurance, GDV and DEKRA, the chance of a fire is much higher when driving a combustor. Here is a source, so sorry it's in German: https://www.dekra.de/de/brandgefahr-bei-elektro-fahrzeugen/

Also, your source is about a test battery. What gives?

 

[KLiKzg]

Perhaps the issue was heat; I was speaking from my limited experience with small-scale batteries. Higher C ratings meant larger batteries for the same capacity.

So be it.

Either way, charging isn't anywhere as fast as fueling; thus the practical range of a BEV is limited. This is not an issue for those who simply commute, perhaps. But those who drive about for a living or make a habit of road tripping it becomes challenging.

No, higher C values, means different cell chemistry. As you can't discharge more quickly, then the cell can! That is the limit!

No, I wanted to direct you to the fact that Lithium Ion Batteries have been prone to explode when handled badly since they were introduced. They was a whole scare about exploding vapes a while back. The chance of a burning-up battery in an electric car is, due to it being protected very well (just as in modern vapes), very slim. Naturally, if a battery catches fire, that's pretty bad. But it does not happen often, even if you want to suggest that with your examples (two, by now). There is no bigger danger coming from an electric vehicle than a classical car. Indeed, according to Automobile Insurance, GDV and DEKRA, the chance of a fire is much higher when driving a combustor. Here is a source, so sorry it's in German: https://www.dekra.de/de/brandgefahr-bei-elektro-fahrzeugen/

Also, your source is about a test battery. What gives?

No, Li-ion still burns rapidly & explodes...do you want news from 2023 or 2024, from same factory?

Chance of electric car burning are more frequent, then not. Especially as the design of batteries is pushed to the limit of what it can take, in order to have as much quantity of cells as it can!

Then, if you think some small layer of carbon or Al sheet can protect you from Li-ion batteries burning with 3000°C, then you can wrong! You are, very wrong!
Chances of inhaling a dangerous fumes, in the case of fire is 1 (or 100%) if you are driving!

Problem arises as with burning:

1. BEV burn, when they are stressed...same as ICE.
2. BEV burn, when they are driving....more often then ICE.
3. BEV burn, when they are charging on grid...less often then ICE on tank station!

This makes BEV more dangerous, then not! So Germans are right (as I do speak German also), BEV are more dangerous then ICE - currently.

If you want, I can put more news from same factory? Just say the year.

 

[leonavis]

from same factory?

From the battery test factory? No thanks.

(as I do speak German also)

Apparantly not. From the link:

Tatsächlich ist das Gegenteil der Fall: Die Stromer liegen beim Brandrisiko hinter Verbrennern und Hybrid-Fahrzeugen. ... Auch der Deutsche Feuerwehr Verband (DFV) kommt zu diesem Schluss. „Weder die Eintrittswahrscheinlichkeit eines Brandes noch das Schadensausmaß sind nach derzeitigem Stand bei Elektrofahrzeugen erhöht“, heißt es in einer Pressemitteilung zu dem Thema.

So the fire department states that neither the frequency nor the gravity of fires is higher with electric cars.

Then, if you think some small layer of carbon or Al sheet can protect you from Li-ion batteries burning with 3000°C, then you can wrong!

Yeah no. That's quite far from "AI", even in the most generous terms. It simply cuts the circuit off when something goes wrong. Even if the battery degasifies, which is highly unlikely with today's accu-packs, and even if it cannot vent, which is even more unlikely, it cannot get current then.

Sure, if everything goes wrong, everything can catch fire. But electric cars are not more dangerous than classical combustion cars. That's a myth. In the same category as "vapes will blow your hands off, so you should rather continue smoking".

 

[KLiKzg]

From the battery test factory? No thanks.

From the battery factory...as most of the time, you will not get notice for burning car in your neighborhood!

Apparantly not. From the link:
So the fire department states that neither the frequency nor the gravity of fires is higher with electric cars.

Well, that is some uncommon statistics, as in my country - fireman are very concerned about the BEV vehicles. More then others!
Especially, as you can't extinguish the BEV...while HEV might not use those problematic Li-ion batteries.

& H2 in tank, can't burn by itself...just for comparison...& those tanks are designed to withstand some amount of fire, like LPG tanks.
So H2 is far more safer then BEV!

Yeah no. That's quite far from "AI", even in the most generous terms. It simply cuts the circuit off when something goes wrong. Even if the battery degasifies, which is highly unlikely with today's accu-packs, and even if it cannot vent, which is even more unlikely, it cannot get current then.

Sure, if everything goes wrong, everything can catch fire. But electric cars are not more dangerous than classical combustion cars. That's a myth. In the same category as "vapes will blow your hands off, so you should rather continue smoking".

Sure, that works only in design...to have that exit for degasification...which helps, somewhat...but not with 3000°C fire in cells!
BTW, if you cut current in a BEV, then you still have charge in the cells...those have not been discharged at all...so still a ticking bomb, under your seat!
& if cells catch fire, there is no extinguishing of the BEV...none! You have a total on a car, right there! Hope you have some insurance on it...

Telling that BEV are not more dangerous then ICE, is simply wrong...ICE is far more safer, then BEV!
H2 are a little more dangerous then ICE, like a LPG ICE...though it also depends on the battery, also.

But do tell us, why do you think BEV are not more dangerous then ICE?

 

[leonavis]

But do tell us, why do you think BEV are not more dangerous then ICE?

Because the insurance companies and Dekra say so.

I mean that's their job. They wouldn't ensure those cars if they were a permanent danger to everyone around. They have a clear incentive not to lie about something like that.

Telling that BEV are not more dangerous then ICE, is simply wrong...ICE is far more safer, then BEV!

That's a statement. Which isn't backed by sources - or facts, for that matter. So please, do actually prove your statement instead of just stating it.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Because the insurance companies and Dekra say so.

I mean that's their job. They wouldn't ensure those cars if they were a permanent danger to everyone around. They have a clear incentive not to lie about something like that.


That's a statement. Which isn't backed by sources - or facts, for that matter. So please, do actually prove your statement instead of just stating it.

CBS - 80% more issues with electric vehicles

A primary source that is left leaning, that actually admits it. Now "issues" is poorly defined. That said, I've seen nitromethane fueled dragsters less prone to self combustion than what is being reported out for electric vehicles.

If that isn't enough, the Chinese themselves have areas where electric vehicles are not allowed to park due to the damage they could cause in an auto-ignition event. If the people most in love with electric are wary of electric more than a rolling petroleum bomb then I'm probably going to side with the electric vehicle being more dangerous.



JD Power

If that isn't enough, the trusted name who has been awarding cars for years (JD Power) has stated EVs have more problems. I...can't sugar coat it when so many primary sources, and ones who love EVs for political reasons, view them as a liability.

 

[DirtyDingusMcgee]

I've seen nitromethane fueled dragsters less prone to self combustion than what is being reported out for electric vehicles.

HAHAHA!!! You made me spit my tea. Going to the drags in a couple weeks. i do love the smell of nitromethane in the morning.

 

[leonavis]

CBS - 80% more issues with electric vehicles

A primary source that is left leaning, that actually admits it. Now "issues" is poorly defined. That said, I've seen nitromethane fueled dragsters less prone to self combustion than what is being reported out for electric vehicles.

If that isn't enough, the Chinese themselves have areas where electric vehicles are not allowed to park due to the damage they could cause in an auto-ignition event. If the people most in love with electric are wary of electric more than a rolling petroleum bomb then I'm probably going to side with the electric vehicle being more dangerous.



JD Power

If that isn't enough, the trusted name who has been awarding cars for years (JD Power) has stated EVs have more problems. I...can't sugar coat it when so many primary sources, and ones who love EVs for political reasons, view them as a liability.

This is so strange, since German sources state the exact opposite. According to ADAC, electric cars have way fewer problems on the road than classical combustion cars.

Maybe something to do with regulations? I have no idea what kind of cars are being sold in the US, but I do know something like the Cybertruck is allowed on the road there...

 

[KLiKzg]

Because the insurance companies and Dekra say so.

I mean that's their job. They wouldn't ensure those cars if they were a permanent danger to everyone around. They have a clear incentive not to lie about something like that.

With Green on the ruling in Germany...& so much money in the going for BEV...I would not trust so much about "insurance companies" or DEKRA, for that matter.

But people believe many things...even that pyramids are not big tombstones! Who am I to tell them, they are wrong?

All I am saying is the knowledge from hypercar industry BEV. Take it or leave it?!

That's a statement. Which isn't backed by sources - or facts, for that matter. So please, do actually prove your statement instead of just stating it.

Oh, I can prove my statements....for ICE:

• Diesel fuel is not flammable, inside the tank or outside the tank.
• Gasoline fuel is flammable, inside the tank or outside the tank. Especially its vapors!
• Any good ICE works OK, is proven over last 100+y or so.
• Almost none of (or rarely) ICE has catched fire 'cause of the fuel issues...majority of fires on ICE are result from bad wiring & electrical damage of some sort!
• Any ICE, if it has leak of fuel, has a warning in a way of "bad smell". But we are talking about a "issue on the car itself", an abnormality...not a common thing for over 80y now!
  (note, that BEV does not have any hint before the battery catches fire...)

Given all this, you either have warning of fuel issue on ICE...or you have electrical damage without warning on ICE...to have a fire!

I do not know why you state that BEV are as safe, as you state they are...as they are not!
As I would rather drive a H2 with a HPT, then any of BEV...after working in hypercar BEV factory, developing batteries, devices & hypercar itself!

But feel free to prove me wrong...

 

[DirtyDingusMcgee]

This is so strange, since German sources state the exact opposite. According to ADAC, electric cars have way fewer problems on the road than classical combustion cars.

Maybe something to do with regulations? I have no idea what kind of cars are being sold in the US, but I do know something like the Cybertruck is allowed on the road there...

This i can shed some light on. One of my biggest clients is a major GM dealership group. They can't sell the dang EVs. No one here wants them (Texas). They have Bolts, Hummer EVs, Silverado EVs, you name it.....they sell gas powered vehicles 200 to 1 over EV. The mechanics hate them too. They are constant problems......hell, they even have to get me in on the repairs for some the the newer ones sometimes.

 

[KLiKzg]

This is so strange, since German sources state the exact opposite. According to ADAC, electric cars have way fewer problems on the road than classical combustion cars.

Maybe something to do with regulations? I have no idea what kind of cars are being sold in the US, but I do know something like the Cybertruck is allowed on the road there...

You mentioned ADAC, but which ADAC do you read?

TUV & ADAC report for 2024, of all 2~3y old cars worse car is Tesla 3.
Link: https://car-recalls.eu/tuv-report-2024/
I mean, you really need to be an expert in sthg in order to be worse then Dacia Logan.

& on top of this...a nice recall for Jeep Wrangler & Cherokee 4xe:

Stellantis Media - Statement: PHEV Fire Risk Advisory

This recall affects certain model-year 2020-2024 Jeep® Wrangler 4xe and 2022-2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe SUVs.

media.stellantisnorthamerica.com

I would rather use H2 tank under my seat, then drive BEV.

 

[leonavis]

You mentioned ADAC, but which ADAC do you read?

TUV & ADAC report for 2024, of all 2~3y old cars worse car is Tesla 3.
Link: https://car-recalls.eu/tuv-report-2024/
I mean, you really need to be an expert in sthg in order to be worse then Dacia Logan.

& on top of this...a nice recall for Jeep Wrangler & Cherokee 4xe:

Stellantis Media - Statement: PHEV Fire Risk Advisory

This recall affects certain model-year 2020-2024 Jeep® Wrangler 4xe and 2022-2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe SUVs.

media.stellantisnorthamerica.com

I would rather use H2 tank under my seat, then drive BEV.

First of all, this is TÜV, not ADAC. ADAC tests cars and helps with repairs on the road, TÜV and Dekra are testing cars every few years to determine if they are still safe. If they are not they have to be repaired or will not be licensed to be driven.

On this TÜV-list one of the best is the VW e-Golf, which is an electric vehicle too. Tesla doesn't get through TÜV a lot here indeed. That has nothing to do with electric vehicles in general.

Almost none of (or rarely) ICE has catched fire 'cause of the fuel issues...majority of fires on ICE are result from bad wiring & electrical damage of some sort!

Wait. You seriously think that batteries, as opposed to gasoline, just start burning by themselves?

I hope you are consequent in that judgement and don't own a laptop or smartphone?

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

don't own a laptop or smartphone?

Not a Note 7, for sure.

However, we stray from the topic of hydrogen cars.

 

[KLiKzg]

Wait. You seriously think that batteries, as opposed to gasoline, just start burning by themselves?

I hope you are consequent in that judgement and don't own a laptop or smartphone?

I know, that & how they are not safe...how it takes just a slight error in design or broken conductor, in order to short-circuit it.
& once started, fires can't be stopped...as opposed to ICE, where the fire can be stopped if it has not come to varnish on the steel sheets!

But you do need phone now...so you use the ones with brand name...that does not swell so easily.
So far, no fires...

But do tell me, do you heat your house on gas or electricity? Do you drive in any ICE, even in public transport? & how much of your electricity comes from fossil fuel, by your electricity provider?

 

[leonavis]

I know, that & how they are not safe...how it takes just a slight error in design or broken conductor, in order to short-circuit it.

And a nuclear power plant can, if it's failing, cause horrible consequences, yes. That's why we try everything to make sure that such a case doesn't happen. Same with electric cars. You can be against them due to fear of burning batteries, but that will not stop the progress and transistion from combustion to electric. Just as the fear of nuclear power plants doesn't stop a lot of countries investing in just that technology.

But do tell me, do you heat your house on gas or electricity?

I don't have a house.

I don't think one of us can convince the other... so lets just leave it at that.

 

[KLiKzg]

And a nuclear power plant can, if it's failing, cause horrible consequences, yes. That's why we try everything to make sure that such a case doesn't happen. Same with electric cars. You can be against them due to fear of burning batteries, but that will not stop the progress and transistion from combustion to electric. Just as the fear of nuclear power plants doesn't stop a lot of countries investing in just that technology.

Failing nuclear plant, does not need to have horrible consequences...it all depends on the design of the plant itself! Some are better designed, some are worse.

& it is not the same with the electric car...I can't say more, without breaking a NDA.
But I am stating that any BEV is a disaster waiting to be happen...& it has everything to do with chemistry in the cells...as those are "unstable" to be in the atmosphere of Earth, then BEV should be evaded...so far, there is no design or technology process to keep it under control...it is a disaster waiting to be happen! Li-ion is a worst battery to have...so keep it away from you & certainly not in your car!

BTW, lot of countries are afraid from nuclear....like Germany, which has closed all the nuclear plants!

I don't have a house.

I don't think one of us can convince the other... so lets just leave it at that.

Even if you do not have a house...or a flat! Your folks or your area is heated by one way...which? Do you even know which?

 

[leonavis]

Even if you do not have a house...or a flat! Your folks or your area is heated by one way...which? Do you even know which?

Various. My flat is heated by gas, which I cannot influence. My sister & parents for example heat with electricity. A lot of people here have district heating from burned trash.

Li-ion is a worst battery to have...so keep it away from you & certainly not in your car!

Bogus. Just as the scare about exploding batteries in vapes. Mishandle your electronics and you get disaster. Handle it correctly and u're good to go. I'm using and have used those batteries for years there. You need a device that allows them to degasify in case of error and you need to handle your batteries with care. When the inner resistance gets to high, it's end of life -> dispose of them.

I never had a failing battery. And I've had plenty.

 

[KLiKzg]

Various. My flat is heated by gas, which I cannot influence. My sister & parents for example heat with electricity. A lot of people here have district heating from burned trash.

So you do release CO2, but too scared to admit it...thought so!

Like a vegetarian, secretly eating at McDonald's.

Bogus. Just as the scare about exploding batteries in vapes. Mishandle your electronics and you get disaster. Handle it correctly and u're good to go. I'm using and have used those batteries for years there. You need a device that allows them to degasify in case of error and you need to handle your batteries with care. When the inner resistance gets to high, it's end of life -> dispose of them.

I never had a failing battery. And I've had plenty.

It is not bogus...Li is the 2nd most reactive element in period table & the most reactive metal in period table! Ask any chemist about it, they will confirm it!

& again, it is design of the cell itself with the chemistry inside, that is dangerous.
I am not against all BEV, just the Li-ion or Li-PO batteries. Once we get to SSB, Zn-ion or Na-ion, which would work - we might be on a safer place! Right now, we are not!
Especially is a BEV cars, where you have 1000+ of them...single point of failure & everything goes in the air!

 

[leonavis]

So you do release CO2, but too scared to admit it...thought so!

Every time I fart.

I'm gonna leave you to it now.

 

[Shrek]

That's methane (also a greenhouse gas)

I recall a story about cows, where the vet told the farmer that cows belch methane, but the famer didn't believe this, so the vet demonstrated that it was flammable; the story claims the barn burned down as a result.