Get a new motherboard now even though I won't be using it for some years?

[azrael]

With all the recent releases of both new processors and new motherboards I've been looking at what would suit me should I want to upgrade to a new platform now. I don't really plan to, but it's always good to be in the know.

What I've learned (and vented about elsewhere on this forum) is that the number of PCIe slots decreases while the number of M.2 slots increases. PCIe slots are universally usable while M.2 slots more or less aren't. FWIW, it seems that Wendell from Level1Techs agrees with that opinion. It also seems as if more focus in put on making a board more pretty than useful (my opinion), to please the "fish tank crowd".

In the end I came up with two motherboards which appeal to me and are the best of a worst selection. Both are AM5 boards since Intel has nothing out that I currently would want to spend my money on.

One board is the ASUS Prime X670-P (CSM/WiFi) and the other is the ASRock X670E PG Lightning. Both sport a total of 4 PCIe slots (apparently the maximum you can get these days) and support ECC (a must for me). Of those two the ASRock seems preferable, alhough I've historically went for ASUS.

The question is, should I buy the motherboard just to have it in case it goes out of production and only more inferior choices remain, or should I wait and see?

As always, all input is greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Added links to the boards.

 

[Ruru]

I don't see any sense doing that. You may get a similar board for cheaper later, and what if it's DOA when you finally decide to use it, and it's out of warranty by that point?

 

[Frick]

If you already have an actual plan for upgrading to AM5 say next year and you see those boards on sale AND you are actually using all of those PCIe slots, I'd say go for it. But buying what amounts to high end motherboards just in case? Probably not no.

The x670E boards have two chipsets, so they support more stuff than the normal version.

 

[azrael]

The ASRock is actually quite a cheap motherboard. Cheaper than most X670(none-E) boards. Again, my fear is that if I let the ASRock board slip away I might later only be able to buy a board with fewer PCIe slots. And yes, I'm going to use them. @Ruru good point about a possible DOA, though.

 

[Assimilator]

Those boards are both garbage in terms of PCIe connectivity. The ASUS board has three x16 form-factor slots, sure, but only the first one is actually x16; the other two are x4 and x4. The Asrock board is even worse; its slots are x16, x4, and x1.

Nowadays really your only choice if you want more than one full-width x16 PCIe slot is to buy HEDT, and that is expensive. The board I use was half a decade old when I purchased it, has three full x16 slots, and cost me a thousand pounds in a bundle with a CPU and RAM - the main cost was the fact that only high-core-count (24+) CPUs are available for Zen 2 Threadripper. Zen 4 TRX50/WRX90 limits you to Threadripper 7000-series CPUs which are even more stupidly expensive; on the server side Zen 5 has better options in terms of CPUs (the 8-core 8024P is "only" £400) but you are, of course, limited to server-class boards which lack other connectivity like USB ports.

Welcome to the part of the consumer market that neither AMD nor Intel care about: people who want decent connectivity, but not high-core-count CPUs. It's lonely here.

 

[Frick]

To add some context to the above, PCIe is now used for many things, PCIe slots, NVMe drives, USB and SATA. So you can't have five PCIe cards, but you can have several high speed NVMe drives plus a couple 10Gbps USB things. In theory I think the motherboard makers could make boards with a ton of PCIe ports, and you sometimes see them - marketed as mining montherboards - but for the majority of mortals it has been decided that storage is more important than whatever else you have to add, and statistically speaking they are probably right.

But yeah, a proper sanely priced HEDT segment would be nice from both camps, but given how expensive computers are anyway, "sanely priced" is right out.

 

[azrael]

Those boards are both garbage in terms of PCIe connectivity. The ASUS board has three x16 form-factor slots, sure, but only the first one is actually x16; the other two are x4 and x4. The Asrock board is even worse; its slots are x16, x4, and x1.

I actually find the connectivity on this board better than the ASUS. The x1 slot is perfect for my sound card and the two x4 slots are useful for add-in cards as well. Otherwise I fully agree with you. Had been looking at a Threadripper option but those prices are just insane.

To add some context to the above, PCIe is now used for many things, PCIe slots, NVMe drives, USB and SATA. So you can't have five PCIe cards, but you can have several high speed NVMe drives plus a couple 10Gbps USB things. In theory I think the motherboard makers could make boards with a ton of PCIe ports, and you sometimes see them - marketed as mining montherboards - but for the majority of mortals it has been decided that storage is more important than whatever else you have to add, and statistically speaking they are probably right.

But yeah, a proper sanely priced HEDT segment would be nice from both camps, but given how expensive computers are anyway, "sanely priced" is right out.

There are such things as PCIe cards with M.2 slots. And who really needs 12 (and more) USB ports? I would rather have the choice to do what *I* want instead of having stuff forced on me.

 

[Vincero]

That's the one good thing that'll be missed from the celeron (and later pentium name branding) days - buying a dirt cheap (almost) 'throw away' CPU you could use just to fire up the platform for testing or BIOS updates, etc.

Yes it exists now for LGA1700 but I don't see it continuing with LGA1800 and AMD AM5 doesn't have anything like that at all - a sub $100 (maybe even nearer $50) CPU.

Actually, with how the Intel Arrow Lake release has gone, maybe they will end up doing price cuts down to the lowest tier SKUs down to that price range

Overall agree with others, buying the board with no way to check it works is a terrible idea. Might as well buy when you come round to getting a CPU - likely better features or overall value will exist.

 

[Frick]

There are such things as PCIe cards with M.2 slots. And who really needs 12 (and more) USB ports? I would rather have the choice to do what *I* want instead of having stuff forced on me.

I'm gonna say that most of those PCIe cards you have now also exist as USB peripherals. You could make the argument either way: "I have all this USB stuff (camera, recorders, mixers, storage), what am I supposed to do with four PCIe slots???" But yeah if we're going to spend premium money on motherboards (€300 is not premium motherboard territory!) we'd preferably want both.

 

[Assimilator]

There are such things as PCIe cards with M.2 slots. And who really needs 12 (and more) USB ports? I would rather have the choice to do what *I* want instead of having stuff forced on me.

This is what the PC was originally about: choice for consumers. But that has been perverted into what CPU and motherboard companies want in order to make more money.

 

[Frick]

This is what the PC was originally about: choice for consumers. But that has been perverted into what CPU and motherboard companies want in order to make more money.

OTOH there are way more USB peripherals (even high speed ones now) than there are PCIe cards. And what with more and more things being baked into the motherboard and later the CPU itself the vast majority of people with PC's don't actually need expansion cards. I only have one because I don't want to let go of my optical drives and ran out of SATA ports.

But again, ideally we'd have both but I also understand why they add high speed USB ports and storage over PCIe slots.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

One, if you buy today you need to have a way to test everything. If you're going to do that, then you aren't really buying a board "for the future," so much as a hot swappable backup.

Two, if you pay attention to the specifications there aren't a lot of boards that can actually use extra PCI-e lanes. For giggles, how many lanes does your chipset/CPU actually support? The answer is actually more on AM5 than AM4... and it is:

• B840: 1x16 PCIe 4.0
• X670E: 1x16 or 2x8 PCIe 5.0
• X670: 1x16 or 2x8 PCIe 4.0
• B650E: 1x16 or 2x8 PCIe 5.0

Three, motherboard manufacturers aren't just forgetting they have lanes. USB getting faster, ethernet jumping from 10/100/1000 to 2.5/10Gb requires more bandwidth, and boards are now teeming with built-in Wifi, sound, and other features. Your cheap boards often offer only partial bus width (x16 physical, but x4 electrical) or they have to compromise on what is otherwise delivered (less connectivity via other interfaces). In short, x670 chipsets offer 16 PCI-e lanes at 5.0 speeds, which is actually the bandwidth of 32 at 4.0 speeds...and that is a hard limit of the setup instead of some motherboard manufacturing conspiracy.

What you probably want is someone to add a bunch of extra chips to their motherboard, and break-out 32 lanes of PCI-e 4.0, instead of 16 of 5.0. Most motherboard manufacturers don't do this for the obvious reason that the boards would be expensive, and the people who have need of anything more than a GPU slot are...well, vanishing frankly. Most boards have baked in connectivity, sound, and I/O. They may spend it on frills (think, lighting controllers), but when people don't show the need for a feature in a certain market, then it isn't made. This is why we don't have many, if any, boards out there with a B650E chipset and 32 lanes of PCI-e at 4.0 speeds despite this being possible.


Finally, are you really in need of connectivity through PCI-e? I ask because the most common current usage scenario I see is extra SATA or USB interface cards. That may not be you...but when 99.9% of the population is served with just one PCI-e x16 slot then maybe you need more specialty hardware rather than consumer stuff.

 

[Vincero]

This is what the PC was originally about: choice for consumers. But that has been perverted into what CPU and motherboard companies want in order to make more money.

The move to integrate more functionality into fewer parts ultimately led to this, and with the main expansion bus being part of the CPU SoC, this ultimately constrains any platform.

Some may say certain integrated devices are ultimately more convenient than having to mess about with additional cards - not everyone would be happy going back to the days of having separate expansion cards for:
External devices (e.g. Serial bus)
IDE controller
Sound device
Network card
Graphics card
....
And then whatever else

Essentially, by the back door, every CPU now shares more in common with the old 'Geode' SoC than just simply being a CPU, and ultimately this is the result.

The irony is that would expect motherboards to be cheaper as a result but due to the costs of PCIe splitters, VRMs that can pump out 200A at 1V, signal retimers, etc., it really isn't.

 

[Assimilator]

In short, x670 chipsets offer 16 PCI-e lanes at 5.0 speeds, which is actually the bandwidth of 32 at 4.0 speeds...and that is a hard limit of the setup instead of some motherboard manufacturing conspiracy.

Entirely wrong, please refer to this excellent article by @TheLostSwede that explains how lanes are provided on AM5 motherboards.

The underlying issue is that because the CPU only has 24 available lanes, and AMD has mandated that 8 of these be used for storage, it is only possible to get a single x16 5.0 slot which, of course, will be consumed by a GPU. And it is impossible to get an x16 4.0 slot because the maximum number of lanes put out by the chipset(s) is 12. It is technically possible to get a 4.0 x8 slot, but that would leave a mere 4 lanes available from the chipset, so no manufacturer has bothered.

Meanwhile the lowliest 8c/16t EPYC Zen 4 CPU has ninety-six, count 'em, PCIe 5.0 lanes - enough for six full-length PCIe 5.0 slots. If you've been following along, that is four times the number of 5.0 lanes that desktop parts get. I am not saying that AMD needs to be providing that number of lanes to consumers, because for most it would be a waste, but if AMD were to meet us in the middle and provide even half of what EPYC gets i.e. 48 lanes, that would solve literally every connectivity problem their consumer platform has while still retaining the value proposition of their server platforms. The fact that this is not the case is a deliberate decision by AMD to nickel-and dime customers, not a conspiracy.

I mean, just take a look at the below block diagram: EPYC Zen 4 has so many PCIe 5.0 lanes that there's literally no issue using a single lane that can move data at up to 4GB/s, to serve a SATA link that operates at a maximum of 600MB/s. Any lane allocated to SATA would be running with 85% of its bandwidth unused and yet it doesn't matter at all for this platform.

 

[nomdeplume]

There are such things as PCIe cards with M.2 slots. And who really needs 12 (and more) USB ports? I would rather have the choice to do what *I* want instead of having stuff forced on me.

I started a mobo thread mostly directed at USB 2.0 that unavoidably took in lane sharing with PCIe. Appears you are coming from a similar enough place to feel comfortable making a suggestion. One in keeping with the amounts to which our mentalities aligned into years of polite complaining and passing the years desiring a less unsuitable reality.



Stable but unexciting CSM boards are always going to exist. Your larger concern going forwards is iGPU shifting their layout away from being the last place fitting your needs. Neither of the mobo you linked are worth buying at full or even partially discounted retail pricing. Ask yourself why everyone is jointly obscuring what their customers need to force feed a (deeply flawed in itself and enforces a degrading effect upon all it subtracts from) new selling point every two quarters.

Do yourself a favor and pick a winner that mostly delivers on all fronts. One unrecognized aspect of this might be considering whether VGA is replacing need for add on cards or if this will encompass A/V.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Get a new motherboard now even though I won't be using it for some years?

Big mistake. As Ruru pointed out,

and what if it's DOA when you finally decide to use it, and it's out of warranty by that point?

But not just that. Motherboards integrate and depend on a multitude of other technologies, all advancing at their own rates.

PCIe slots are universally usable

Yeah, today - but what about tomorrow? Motherboards didn't always have PCIe slots. They used to have PCI (totally incompatible with PCIe) expansion slots and AGP graphics card slots.

Motherboards used to only have DDR3 RAM slots. They don't now and new DDR4 boards are phasing out as DDR5 takes over. But DDR6 is set to become the new standard by 2026.

CPUs (and their sockets) change fairly often.

There used to be no such thing as SATA, HDMI, or DisplayPort.

Even operating systems and applications advance to the point they won't work on legacy hardware.

Point is, if you buy a new motherboard today and save it for later, you may not be able to find a compatible CPU or RAM or other components or software to use with it. And frankly, old motherboards don't even make good paperweights.

 

[azrael]

Big mistake. As Ruru pointed out,

But not just that. Motherboards integrate and depend on a multitude of other technologies, all advancing at their own rates.

Yeah, today - but what about tomorrow? Motherboards didn't always have PCIe slots. They used to have PCI (totally incompatible with PCIe) expansion slots and AGP graphics card slots.

Motherboards used to only have DDR3 RAM slots. They don't now and new DDR4 boards are phasing out as DDR5 takes over. But DDR6 is set to become the new standard by 2026.

CPUs (and their sockets) change fairly often.

There used to be no such thing as SATA, HDMI, or DisplayPort.

Even operating systems and applications advance to the point they won't work on legacy hardware.

Point is, if you buy a new motherboard today and save it for later, you may not be able to find a compatible CPU or RAM or other components or software to use with it. And frankly, old motherboards don't even make good paperweights.

I was there when PCI was introduced. Back when I bought my first PC (and actually the only one I ever bought assembled) people were urging me to go with a 486 and VESA Local Bus slots. Good thing I listened to my intuition and went with a Pentium and PCI slots (the legendary Intel "Plato" motherboard). Never regretted it.

Perhaps I should've been more clear in my original post. I'm only concerned with AM5 boards at the moment, since Intel has nothing to offer to me. Given the longevity of the AM4 socket one tends to hope AM5 will have a similar longevity. When I look at the latest 800 Series AM5 motherboards I notice that they are worse for my needs than 600 Series motherboards. Especially considering that X670E and X870E are identical with USB4 being mandatory on the latter. Actually, that is what has prompted my thinking. The offerings seem to get progressively worse for my needs rather than better.

I also do not intend to not upgrade for a decade. More like in two to three years from now, at the max. Pretty sure, standards won't change too much in that time span. Especially PCIe. It's been around for quite a long time by now, having outlived both PCI and AGP (which was nothing more than a slighly modified PCI slot). Sure, PCIe 6 will come, but it will most likely be backward compatible, as are all earlier versions.

 

[Harlow]

One board is the ASUS Prime X670-P (CSM/WiFi)

I bought this board back in 2022 for a 7950X rig but I don't use the internal WiFi. Main reason was this board has two additional x16 length slots (running at x4) which I populated with a Solarflare SFP+ 10Gbe optical NIC and an LSI SAS Controller for an external LTO tape drive. The 870-P was relatively inexpensive and has never given me any trouble. Obviously I don't get the full bandwidth from x8 cards running at x4, but they meet my needs. For systems requiring more PCIe slots, I use Xeon server boards with 4 or 8 ECC DIMMs per CPU. They also have the advantage you can fit bigger RDIMMs or LRDIMMs for increased memory capacity.

I was there when PCI was introduced.

My third computer was a 12MHz 80286 with 16-bit ISA slots (pre VESA). Earlier machines were powered by an 8086 (which I swapped for a faster NEC V30) and several 6502/65C02 combinations with mild overclocks (change the crystal).

I also do not intend to not upgrade for a decade.

i generally build a new system every 3 to 5 years. I was finding my 3800X system was being overwhelmed when I started to process 4K video, hence the new 7950X. When it becomes too slow (after a GPU upgrade), I'll probably buy something new in 2026. Given the gradual improvement in technology, I wouldn't buy a board now and leave it in the box for 3 years. Something better (and affordable) might come along that needs the latest tech (we can but hope). Some of my older systems have been through 2 or 3 CPU swaps, as "faster" processors became available for very little money on eBay.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck.
.

 

[azrael]

My third computer was a 12MHz 80286 with 16-bit ISA slots (pre VESA). Earlier machines were powered by an 8086 (which I swapped for a faster NEC V30) and several 6502/65C02 combinations with mild overclocks (change the crystal).

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck.

My first *PC* was a Pentium 90MHz (if you can believe it ). I had been in the computer "game" a decade before that, though. Testing the waters, first with a ZX81 and later a Spectrum. Although own first computer was a TI 99/4A. Followed by a Commodore 64 and several Amigas. Probably a history that isn't that unusual for people on here.

And thanks...

 

[_roman_]

ASUS Prime X670-P

Just - don't buy it. I own it. I use it as of now. I'm the author of that post: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/threads/asus-prime-x670-p.1338020/

The board sometimes do not get an uefi updates. Very often that board and some other tuf boards get delayed updates. Very bad for myself as I run encryption and the known uefi bug was not fixed for several weeks ( i think around 3 to 5 weeks)


Asus finally fixed the cold and warm boot issues for around 3 weeks.

That only one backpanel USB port is only bootable annoys me. I do not care if it's ASUS uefi related, ASUS board related or how the usual live media works. Those media, multiple live media, work flawless on any other hardware I own or tested. Even at work.

I'm sorry - I feel like that: It's a pile of garbage.

-- The reason why i bought it in may 2023. It was a bundle of The ASUS X670-P Prime Mainboard + Ryzen 7600X + free shipping around 395€. AMD - I think gave me also Star wars Jedi Survivor Game. I wanted that game. The plugin options were not that bad from that mainboard.. What I did not expect that getting the wifi module is kinda not that easy. Asus did not sell it a year ago. I bought a Intel WLAN module, the "asus" metal box for it and the antennas. For some reason the wlan is also faulty in one of my operating system. Basically the kernel crashes regularly. With usb tethering from my smartphone the box does not crash. I crosstested for weeks to rule out the influence of the wlan module.

I will not need PCIE 5.0 for the PEG = graphic card slot in the next few years. There were no known graphic cards available at the point of may 2023.

The only reason for PCIE 5.0 in my point of view is when you intend to buy a expansion slot card where you put in pice 5.0 m2 ssds. Maybe future graphic cards will use PCIE 5.0. There is barely a difference for pice 3.0 and pice 4.0 16 lanes graphic cards what i read in the past. If you consider using a pice 5.0 graphic card than you should buy a mainboard also in the high end expensive class - not a cheap entry mainboard.

I checked the asus homepage. In my point of view that mainboard get's sold in 3 variants. With and without wifi. with and without crm (which seems some other bios feature - i suppose).

--

The board has 6 SATA and disalbe one small PCIE slot. Most boards only have 4 SATA ports.

If you want USB 4.0 you can buy a 100€ plugin card on amazon for that particular board. It needs a certain uefi version and a certain asus usb 4.0 card for certain asus mainboards. That goes in the last slot of the board.

 

[azrael]

Just - don't buy it. I own it. I use it as of now. I bought it in may 2023. I'm the author of that post: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/threads/asus-prime-x670-p.1338020/

The board sometimes do not get an uefi updates. Very often that board and some other tuf boards get delayed updates. Very bad for myself as I run encryption and the known uefi bug was not fixed for several weeks ( i think around 3 to 5 weeks)


Asus finally fixed the cold and warm boot issues for around 3 weeks.

That only one backpanel USB port is only bootable annoys me. I do not care if it's ASUS uefi related, ASUS board related or how the usual live media works. Those media, multiple live media, work flawless on any other hardware I own or tested. Even at work.

I'm sorry - I feel like that:

Thanks for sharing your experiences (lese gerade Deine Posts). Would be going for the ASRock board anyway, if at all.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Perhaps I should've been more clear in my original post. I'm only concerned with AM5 boards at the moment

It would not have changed my answer. This remains a bad idea. I even advise users against buying components piecemeal for new builds 6 months out for the same reasons I mentioned above. Instead, I recommend they save their money and build up the budget and buy all at once when they are ready to pull the trigger.

There are more reasons.

Motherboard makers frequently modify motherboard models to correct minor design errors, or even replace major mounted/integrated components with an improved model. These boards have the same model number but a different Revision number. I have seen the same model motherboard released with several revisions. Some changes include more robust ports and slots like PCIe and USB for example, because the originals were prone to damage or a new upgraded protocol became the new standard. Gigabyte released revisions for several of their boards that replaced Intel WiFi 6 with AMD WiFi 6.

I sure would not want my board to essentially become outdated or even obsolete while sitting on my shelf in an unopened box.

Many revisions even use different chipset/BIOS Firmware. This is why when updating the BIOS, it is important you download the correct version for the motherboard's specific revision.

Warranties have been mentioned but understand the warranty period starts on the day of purchase (or shipping date). Most retailers have a "no questions asked" (or something similar) return policy where you can return the item back to the retailer instead of having to deal with the manufacturer's warranty support. This period is often as short as 30 days.

I do understand your reasoning. I actually bought an extra coffee maker after mine of 12 years died. I liked the one I had so much and was disappointed to learn Cuisinart stopped making them. I found them on Amazon for $70 so I bought 2 and put one on the shelf in my store room.

But coffee making technology is not likely to advance much (if at all) in what's left of my lifetime. IT technologies (of which there are many) are constantly evolving. There is "always" something new and improved coming just around the corner. So I would never buy extras for the future with computer components.

 

[_roman_]

It depends on your tactics.

I sold the expensive parts early 2023 and went with a second hand cheap Ryzen 3 3100 / Nvidia 960 / 1 x 8GB DDR4 module. I kept my mainboard / case / power supply.
Than I saw a cpu and mainboard bundle with a free game and bought it. Both are still a bit more expensive as what i paid for it.
Than i bought the other parts I needed like RAM and used the cpu graphic from the processor.

A few months later i bought a graphic card.

When you find the hardware cheap with a cashback or a free game you should buy it.

There were big fluctuations in prices over several months. I checked kinda regularly the Power supply units prices and the arctic liquid freezer II series prices.

I see more the risk with warranty or when the product in question has some hidden defect you can not test.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I see more the risk with warranty or when the product in question has some hidden defect you can not test.

Exactly. And a bit ironic since these are reasons you should not have done what you said you did in the rest of your post - not to mention the advice others said too.

The reality is, you were lucky your components were not discovered to be DOA after the warranty expired.

 

[ir_cow]

The only reason to buy a Motherboard you won't use for a while if it's a limited run like XOC ones or ASUS ProArt. Those rarely get a second production run.