Were Ryzen 8000 CPUs a big mistake from AMD?

[Nhonho]

Why didn't AMD put at least 32 MB of L3 cache on them?

With only 16 MB of L3, the Ryzen 8000 CPUs are slow.

Of course, with 32 MB of L3 the chip would be bigger and more expensive to manufacture, but it would performance better and people would buy it anyway and would not buy CPUs from competitors.

One thing is for sure, it is not by making bad savings on its products that AMD will be able to sell many CPUs and gain more market share.

 

[eidairaman1]

More griping, this is just speculation, wait until they are in hands of the people.

 

[Lew Zealand]

They're not a mistake, instead they're a targeted product.

The R 8000s are laptop-sourced chips like the 5x00G, and earlier G-suffixed CPUs. Monolithic, no IO Die, no separate CCD die, based on the Phoenix 7xxx series laptop APUs. They easily could have been named the 7700G and 7600G like the 5xxxg series but AMD just went with a separate number for naming, probably a better idea than the mess that 5xxx and 4xxx naming is.

They're great for what they are as you'll be building a USFF PC from them with no dGPU. Turns out I'm using a Phoenix-core PC right now, but one with the 7840HS in it, which is almost exactly what the 8700G is (a 7940HS).

 

[dirtyferret]

I'm going to ask this in all seriousness, are you new to AMD's APUs? If you are, these are niche CPUs to fill a specific sector of the market and they really have no "competitors". If not, than the question really is self explanatory.

 

[Nhonho]

AMD is an expert at making mistakes and losing sales opportunities.

If the Ryzen 8000 had at least 32 MB of L3, they would have much higher performance, they would sell much more and they would not be in the lower positions in performance comparison tests with other CPUs. When people see that Ryzen 8000s are at the lower positions in the performance tests, they will buy other CPUs (another Ryzen or CPUs from Intel).

AMD disables many functions in the GPUs of its cheaper VGAs and, therefore, people prefer to buy cheap Nvidia VGAs (RTX xx60), and still have the possibility of buying Intel CPUs. If the Ryzen 8000 had more performance (more L3), they would sell much more because people would not buy the "Intel CPU + Nvidia VGA" kit. And they would buy an offboard VGA if or when they needed more GPU performance.

 

[hsew]

AMD is an expert at making mistakes and losing sales opportunities.

If the Ryzen 8000 had at least 32 MB of L3, they would have much higher performance, they would sell much more and they would not be in the lower positions in performance comparison tests with other CPUs. When people see that Ryzen 8000s are at the lower positions in the performance tests, they will buy other CPUs (another Ryzen or CPUs from Intel).

AMD disables many functions in the GPUs of its cheaper VGAs and, therefore, people prefer to buy cheap Nvidia VGAs (RTX xx60), and still have the possibility of buying Intel CPUs. If the Ryzen 8000 had more performance (more L3), they would sell much more because people would not buy the "Intel CPU + Nvidia VGA" kit. And they would buy an offboard VGA if or when they needed more GPU performance.

No, they wouldn’t. You think Ryzen 8000 was a huge architectural leap over Zen 4 because in your brain, 8000 > 7000, but it wasn’t a leap. If you wanted an 8000 series with 32MB L3, you would have gotten a 7000 (at the time, since 9000 hadn’t come out yet). The 8000 series was aimed at lower budget users who wanted a bit more iGPU performance. AMD delivered this, at the cost of L3 cache, which is already expensive in terms of die space.

The proof? There were no 12/16 core desktop 8000 series. And there never will be since, like I and others have said, the 8000 series is for budget users.

And there is no chance that a hypothetical 8000G with an extra 16MB of L3 Cache would have gotten anywhere near the performance of an RTX3060 anyways.

 

[_roman_]

The 8000 series amd cpus also have other limitations like less pcie lanes.

They have a limited use.

Amd is quite smart to bring late better choices. I was forced to buy a ryzen 7600X. Now I would have bought a 7500f which was not available at that time. Ryzen 8000 was also not available. The 8000 series are not an option. Years ago I had a radeon 6600XT graphic card. That performance level is also not an option anymore for myself. The 8000 apus have worse graphic performance than a Radeon 6600XT.

If I had to build a computer I again I would buy a ryzen 7500f with a dedicated graphic card. I would still stick to the x670 ATX mainboard but from another brand.

I would look out for the money a part cost. In cpu terms, cpu + mainboard + cpu cooler cost.

 

[eidairaman1]

I'm going to ask this in all seriousness, are you new to AMD's APUs? If you are, these are niche CPUs to fill a specific sector of the market and they really have no "competitors". If not, than the question really is self explanatory.

No he is just someone who gripes to make a mountain out of a molehill

 

[Lew Zealand]

AMD is an expert at making mistakes and losing sales opportunities.

If the Ryzen 8000 had at least 32 MB of L3, they would have much higher performance, they would sell much more and they would not be in the lower positions in performance comparison tests with other CPUs. When people see that Ryzen 8000s are at the lower positions in the performance tests, they will buy other CPUs (another Ryzen or CPUs from Intel).

Why would AMD make an 8000 series CPU with 32MB L3? The 7000 series already exists with that feature. If you want an 8000 Series CPU with 32 MB L3, you buy: a 7000 series CPU. Does this make sense to you?

The point of the 8000 Series is the big iGPU. If you want a big iGPU, you get a 8000 Series CPU. If you don't want a big iGPU, you buy:

A 7000 series CPU.

Are you understanding now?

AMD disables many functions in the GPUs of its cheaper VGAs and, therefore, people prefer to buy cheap Nvidia VGAs (RTX xx60), and still have the possibility of buying Intel CPUs. If the Ryzen 8000 had more performance (more L3), they would sell much more because people would not buy the "Intel CPU + Nvidia VGA" kit. And they would buy an offboard VGA if or when they needed more GPU performance.

That makes no sense, there are reasons not to buy the 8000 series CPUs but Cache is not one of them. I tried twice to understand where the meager 5% performance difference between 16 and 32 MB cache would make a difference but your examples make as much sense as comparing apples to lithium deposits.

No he is just someone who gripes to make a mountain out of a molehill

An excellent observation.

 

[The King]

Why didn't AMD put at least 32 MB of L3 cache on them?

With only 16 MB of L3, the Ryzen 8000 CPUs are slow.

Of course, with 32 MB of L3 the chip would be bigger and more expensive to manufacture, but it would performance better and people would buy it anyway and would not buy CPUs from competitors.

One thing is for sure, it is not by making bad savings on its products that AMD will be able to sell many CPUs and gain more market share.

You are 100% correct. The xxxG series offer terrible price performance with a GPU and the reason why I own 3 ZEN CPUS 5600,5600X and 5800x but Zero xxxG series because
they offer poor price/performance when paired with a GPU.

Having a larger L3 may have helped some of its performance but AMD will be competing against themself here as Intel does not have
anything to compete against AMD IGP performance here. Lack of competition is this segment is a big factor.

Personally I would have bought more 5000G series or even 8000G series if it had better performance when paired with a GPU.

source

AMD Ryzen 7 8700G Review

AMD's Ryzen 7 8700G is an excellent single-chip gaming solution, especially for small PCs that can't house a graphics card, but it just can't beat a conventional CPU and GPU combination on price/performance.

www.pcmag.com

 

[Shou Miko]

@The King APU's response better to memory and timings than extra cache for the most part you can see that in the graph you posted yourself.

I doubt the double L3 cache would have giving you anywhere near the same uplift if any, and I can almost promise you that AMD has tested this and if you talk about 0-5% uplift with the 32mb L3 cache this would properly be the reason why AMD went with 16mb L3 instead since the uplift from memory is that much stronger.

It's the people and oem's that uses APU's that have to looking into what bring the best performance of what you can buy.

On the other hand the review from PCMag makes the mistake of not posting what timing he uses because every one knows that AMD enjoy lower timings over faster speeds because the Infinity fab needs to run 1:1 for the best performance sometimes you can get away with not running 1:1 but you can get a penalty.

 

[Vayra86]

Product segmentation

Look it up
/thread

 

[AusWolf]

Have you heard about the term "APU" by any chance? They're not meant to be CPU performance kings. They're meant to be all-in-one CPU-GPU combos. Best of both worlds. For that purpose, 16 MB L3 is fine.

 

[Nhonho]

Tests carried out by TPU show that the Ryzen 8000 are much inferior to the Ryzen 7000, 9000 and Intel Core 14th Gen.

 

[zenlaserman]

I run a 5600G with an RX 570, guess what - performance is just fine. OP's problem is too many benchmark charts read. Take a break, your hairline aint worth this.

 

[GerKNG]

because cache is very large and mobile Chips from AMD always had half the cache.
24MB would have been a good middle way imo but i guess at the low clockspeeds under higher load the cache doesn't do too much compared to desktop CPU.

I run a 5600G with an RX 570, guess what - performance is just fine. OP's problem is too many benchmark charts read. Take a break, your hairline aint worth this.

there are people on this planet who have more than absolute bottom of the barrel standards.

 

[AusWolf]

there are people on this planet who have more than absolute bottom of the barrel standards.

That's who non-G chips are for (not that I like this derogatory tone, but never mind).

 

[Carillon]

cpu performance is irrelevant, it could have zen1 cores and still be iGPU limited. If you spend more for an APU and then spend even more to pair it with a dGPU, I suggest reading a review first.

 

[zenlaserman]

there are people on this planet who have more than absolute bottom of the barrel standards.

Are you insinuating that is bottom of the barrel? Red Dead 2 all High on 1080p is bottom of the barrel? Well excuuuuse me, I graduated HS in Silicon Valley back in '94; used to build better PCs in the decades back when I thought it actually mattered, but it's all subjective. I remember $3K PCs made to play Quake III, and these days I think the gaming implementation of RT is a joke. Besides, some people decide not to play 100+GB games on a regular basis.

I probably play games older than you. Excuse me while I fire up Sid Meier's Pirates.

Edit: don't pretend that AMD's G-models on the low-end of the charts are not plenty good enough for any casual gamer. If one is a competitive online gamer - that is what X3D are perfect for, but if you're a regular Joe Gamer on Vsync, these are fine.

 

[Lew Zealand]

Tests carried out by TPU show that the Ryzen 8000 are much inferior to the Ryzen 7000, 9000 and Intel Core 14th Gen.

What tests? Post a link.

 

[dirtyferret]

Tests carried out by TPU show that the Ryzen 8000 are much inferior to the Ryzen 7000, 9000 and Intel Core 14th Gen.

Test carried out by TPU show the the Ryzen 7000, 900, and Intel 14th Gen to have inferior iGPU compared to the Ryzen 8000. This is the part that seems to go right over your head, AMD bumped up the iGPU performance in the chips at the expense of the CPU performance hence why AMD calls them...APUs

I run a 5600G with an RX 570,

I bought a 5600g for 50% off a while back and built a PC for my mom, previous one was i5-6400 & HDD. Works great for all her needs.

 

[AleXXX666]

Why didn't AMD put at least 32 MB of L3 cache on them?

With only 16 MB of L3, the Ryzen 8000 CPUs are slow.

Of course, with 32 MB of L3 the chip would be bigger and more expensive to manufacture, but it would performance better and people would buy it anyway and would not buy CPUs from competitors.

One thing is for sure, it is not by making bad savings on its products that AMD will be able to sell many CPUs and gain more market share.

LOL. Pure marketing BS. You can buy "cheapo" 8000 series.. but, if you are "PRO GAMER", you MUST buy our X3D-BS.

 

[DirtyDingusMcgee]

They are great for laptops and home or office computers where you need a bit more video performance, but don't need (or have budget constraints that prohibit) a video card.

They are not for every use-case, nor are any of the rest of their products. This is why they offer multiple products, so that they are better able to cover a wide range of use-cases.

Athlons, Celerons, and Pentiums are not exactly burning up the performance chart either, but they still sell tons of them. I am sorry that lower and mid-range cpus don't do it for you, but they serve a purpose.

Most of the world is not willing or can't spend the same amount of money on equipment that us nerds do, and we have to remember that. I work on systems that I wouldn't own all the time, but I'd like to continue having their owner's as a source of revenue.

 

[kapone32]

What the OP does not understand is that the 8000 CPUs have the best Memory Controller on AM5. As a result RAM density and speed are the most important thing for 8000 GPUs. They are also way faster than 5000. I bought a 8600G on Black Friday and paired it with 16GB of DDR5 5600 but I could get 7000+ and see a performance improvement.

A PSA. As Rock boards supports 120Hz on the DP and HDMI onboard ports. They are the only MB vendor that does that and it also means that your 8000 or even 5000 chip benefits from Freesync 44-120 hz support to get smooth, tear free Gaming.

 

[LabRat 891]

No mistake.
Monolithic Ryzen APUs have always had 'compromises' vs. their uArch-same non-APU equivalents.

Ryzen 8000 is just AM5's Ryzen 4000.
Great for those that needed it at the time but, unimpressive next to the latest/upcoming (also monolithic) Mobile APUs.