Help me pick a UPS

[Endymio]

.Bullfeathers! Please show everyone where called both [sic] kWh and watts power. You just quoted me when I said they are not the same thing. Then show us where I said only watts were relevant

If you are going to take people's words out of context, be honest about it. Don't take only a portion then claim they said something different. It would behoove you not to be deceitful like that where everyone can simply go back and see the truth for themselves.

You need to scale the ad hominem back a notch. Your statements are right there in the thread:

1. "Power use over a period time is NOT THE SAME as power demand at any given moment and the power demand at the moment is what UPS are all about. "
2. "We only need to worry about the demand in watts when sizing up a UPS for purchase."

The first part of #1 isn't incorrect -- it simply fails to properly distinguish units. I knew what you meant, but you and the person you were arguing with were clearly speaking through each other.

And statement #2 and the second part of #1 imply that power draw is the only factor, which isn't merely incorrect, but it ignores the original point of the entire thread, in which the OP is asking about runtime. It can be a 500,000 watt UPS and still not give him the runtime he desires: a point you may understand but you certainly weren't communicating.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You need to scale the ad hominem back a notch.

Then stop taking people's comments out of context and misrepresenting what they say. That IS being dishonest and if you do it again, I will say it again.

#1 is correct because once again UPS for home and small office use are NOT intended to keep supplying power while we play games or print 3D projects for the next 2 or 3 hours. They are to supply power long enough until we can "gracefully" save our work and properly shutdown our computers BEFORE battery power runs out. If extended runtimes are needed, then generators should be used and the UPS is then there to support power between the outage and when the generator comes on line - which is what I have been saying all along.

And once again, you take #2 out of context because that was in response to the comment concerning VA vs Watts.

I have no clue where you are coming from, and frankly, don't care. But I have been using UPSs on mission critical systems for more than 30 years. I have been around and working in and responsible for the maintenance of "facility" level (entire buildings) UPS for more than 50 years. You can follow the link in my sig to see if I might have a tiny clue as to what I am talking about.

I can get into much more technical detail with verbiage and proper terminology, but I don't feel that will serve any purpose here.

Now once again, it is time to move on.

 

[Rover4444]

Then stop taking people's comments out of context and misrepresenting what they say. That IS being dishonest and if you do it again, I will say it again.

#1 is correct because once again UPS for home and small office use are NOT intended to keep supplying power while we play games or print 3D projects for the next 2 or 3 hours. They are to supply power long enough until we can "gracefully" save our work and properly shutdown our computers BEFORE battery power runs out. If extended runtimes are needed, then generators should be used and the UPS is then there to support power between the outage and when the generator comes on line - which is what I have been saying all along.

And once again, you take #2 out of context because that was in response to the comment concerning VA vs Watts.

I have no clue where you are coming from, and frankly, don't care. But I have been using UPSs on mission critical systems for more than 30 years. I have been around and working in and responsible for the maintenance of "facility" level (entire buildings) UPS for more than 50 years. You can follow the link in my sig to see if I might have a tiny clue as to what I am talking about.

I can get into much more technical detail with verbiage and proper terminology, but I don't feel that will serve any purpose here.

Now once again, it is time to move on.

Bro you're the only one not moving on here. Chill the hell out. And on a side note an UPS is more than capable of supporting a 3D printer for more than a few hours if you spec it out correctly.

If you don't care about what people have to say or where they're coming from then just stop replying man.

 

[alawadhi3000]

@Bill_Bright i only have my PC connected. the case consumes a total of 420W at peak, factoring in efficiency of the power supply, lets say its 500W.

Add my monitor, which is peak 30W but i use only 20% brightness, so lets say 20W, being reasonable. I have a speaker with sub, which is 80W total.

lets make the round figure to 600W right?

based on this i should get around 20 minutes. But i am getting only 5 minutes while doing a CPU + GPU stress test from AIDA64.

According to the 12V 9ah X2 battery pack, this means i am running a load of over 2000W.

btw you can use chatgpt for calculations, after some tweaks it does have a good calculation.

Anyhoo. I asked for a replacement from amazon.


this is no relevant. lol. i am not running a laser printer nor a 3d printer.

Thats not how lead acid batteries work.

Lead acid batteries capacity are rated under very low load (20HR) which means in order for a 9Ah 12V battery to give you the rated 108WHr capacity, your load must not be more than 5.4W per hour, otherwise the capacity will be reduced significantly.

If you pull 300W from each battery like in your case, the battery will only last ~8 min, giving you only 40WHr of the originally rated 108WHr.

Your calculations will work if you are using a battery type that its capacity is not much affected by the load, like lithium batteries.

 

[de.das.dude]

Dang dog, that's a lotta words. You're right, I concede the argument.

I know right lmao. I do still recommend a solar generator with UPS functionality though, you don't have to pay the running costs associated with most UPS for the most part.

i live 10 stories up in a sky scraper. Not gonna happen lol.

1500 x .6 = 900.

According to Cyberpower, that should give you about 11 minutes of runtime. APC says about 10 minutes.

First of all wattage is not energy. 900W does not equate the amount of energy stored in batteries.

According to Cyberpower, that should give you about 11 minutes of runtime. APC says about 10 minutes.

i did calculations myself taking into account the inverter is 15% efficient, and my psu is 80% efficient.

How did you determine that? Unfortunately, I don't see where that Artis supports an interconnecting cable or monitoring software. You really need to actually measure your consumption. I would suggest looking into one of those kill-a-watt meters designed for your outlets and voltage.

the same calculation you use to determine PSU size works.

And I would not assume 20W for your monitor unless you actually measured it. Of course my monitors are not yours but my 24" Samsung demand about 40W and I just played with the Brightness settings and didn't get 10W difference between 71% (my normal setting) and 30%.



Again, that's not a real world scenario.

why would my monitor consume 40W when dell themselves say that 30W is the max consumption at peak brightness? I am using only 20% brightness, so using 20W for calculations is a very good conservative estimate.

How did you determine that? Unfortunately, I don't see where that Artis supports an interconnecting cable or monitoring software. You really need to actually measure your consumption. I would suggest looking into one of those kill-a-watt meters designed for your outlets and voltage.

Umm, you know that you can back calculate how much wattage is being actually drawn based on how much energy you start off with in the batteries? using 12v x9ah thats around 200something wH.

At this rate of using it up in 5min, that means i am drawing over 2000W. Which is impossible coz: 1. my electricity meter would reflect a 2kw load running 12hrs a day, i.e. give me atleast 24units of reading a day. i only get 4 or 5. (2) i only have a 750 W psu, unless the monitor is also drawing more than 1000w thats not possible.


You seem to be too stuck up on specifications and what the manufacturers say, instead of knowing actually how things work? that VA rating is for the load, not anything else. Volt x amps or in other words voltage x current which is also wattage. only diff is VA is sans power factor.

I totally agree. This is why I said above, the larger the VA/Wattage rating the longer the battery runtime.

this is completely bullshit. luckily technology connections just got a new video just for the likes of you.

 

[Endymio]

#1 is correct because once again UPS for home and small office use are NOT intended to keep supplying power while we play games or print 3D projects for the next 2 or 3 hours.

The OP explicitly and repeatedly stated he wants to play games for a "would be nice" 30 minute runtime goal. And that is certainly accomplishable with a consumer-grade UPS, though at a higher price point than his first candidate.

I have no clue where you are coming from, and frankly, don't care. But I have been using UPSs on mission critical systems for more than 30 years. I have been around and working in and responsible for the maintenance of "facility" level (entire buildings) UPS for more than 50 years. You can follow the link in my sig to see if I might have a tiny clue as to what I am talking about.

Ah, the appeal-to-authority fallacy gets trotted out. You're still wrong. You repeatedly confused power and energy terminology, and even answered the OP's original question with this wing-dinger:

"I recommend going bigger if the budget allows. 1500VA will support your computer, monitor, and your network gear for at least 20 minutes. "

Did you forget that one?

 

[de.das.dude]

Ah, the appeal-to-authority fallacy gets trotted out. You're still wrong. You repeatedly confused power and energy terminology, and even answered the OP's original question with this wing-dinger:

Yeah, i just pointed him out. He doesnt seem to grasp the difference between power and energy.

 

[Bill_Bright]

First of all wattage is not energy. 900W does not equate the amount of energy stored in batteries.

Ummm, no one said it did. Not sure why you quoted me as I sure didn't say that.

i did calculations myself taking into account the inverter is 15% efficient, and my psu is 80% efficient.

the same calculation you use to determine PSU size works.

And that's fine. You did it right. But what you did is calculate what you "should" be expecting "in theory". You have not verified that is what you are actually seeing in "reality". This is why I keep suggesting a kill-a-watt meter (since your UPS does not have a status display) so you can actually see and measure what your power demands are and more importantly, verify your devices are demanding no more than they should.

Also, understand your inverter's 15% and PSU's 80% efficiency ratings are NOT constants. The efficiency of any power supply (battery, inverter, AC to DC switching power supply, wall wart, even a car engine) constantly varies depending on its load.

Your GS600 PLUS Certified PSU "should" be at least 80% efficient at 20, 50 and 100% load. But it might be faulty and not meet specs.

why would my monitor consume 40W when dell themselves say that 30W is the max consumption at peak brightness?

Again, my point was and still is, this needs to be verified by actually measuring with test or monitoring equipment. Plus, I don't know what monitor you are using. You have two listed in your specs but I cannot even find the Dell 2723DS on Dell's website. It may not be available in the US, or the number is not correct. I don't know. When I search for it on Dell, I get the S2725DS and it shows a maximum power consumption of 57W.

Umm, you know that you can back calculate how much wattage is being actually drawn based on how much energy you start off with in the batteries? using 12v x9ah thats around 200something wH.

Ummm, no. Sorry but that is not true. You CAN calculate what the "theory" using published specs say you "should" get. But that assumes the batteries are new, in perfect condition, and met specs from the start coming off the production line. It is not common but it is not unheard of that "brand new" SLA batteries are don't meet specs or are even DOA. So no, you cannot calculate how much is actually being drawn without actual measurements.

The OP explicitly and repeatedly stated he wants to play games for a "would be nice" 30 minute runtime goal. And that is certainly accomplishable with a consumer-grade UPS, though at a higher price point than his first candidate.

Totally agree. It can be accomplished with a decent quality, properly sized UPS. Never said it couldn't be accomplished. I mentioned hours because others did. Sorry if somehow that was interpreted as something I said or implied the OP wanted. That was not my intention.

My point about intended purpose remains the same, however. The primary purpose for a "good" UPS with AVR is to protect our connected sensitive devices from abnormal surges, spikes, dips and sags. The secondary purpose is to provide backup power in the event of a total outage - with a runtime long enough, essentially, to finish our sentence then gracefully shutdown the computer. Not to "play" games.

The purpose for "protecting" our equipment with an UPS is because a typical surge and spike protector is little more than a fancy and expensive extension cord. The way the marketing weenies market it, or how users want to use it, however may indeed be something different then their true intended purpose for being manufactured in the first place.

this is completely bullshit.

Oh come on. Of course it is true. Are you seriously going to suggest a 600VA UPS, for example, will provide equal or more runtime than a 1500VA UPS with the same load? As for 20 minutes, that is not unrealistic at all.

Yeah, i just pointed him out. He doesnt seem to grasp the difference between power and energy.

LOL I totally understand the difference. As I noted above, kWh and watts are not the same thing. What you two don't seem to understand is the relationship between power and energy. Power is the amount of energy divided by the time it took to use the energy, measured, in this scenario, in watts.

@de.das.dude - since you indicate you totally understand this relationship, in theory and precisely with your specific hardware, I fail to see why you even came here seeking help. Along with Endymio arguing over the minutia of the terminology, you guys clearly have it all figured out as to why you are only getting 5 minutes of runtime.

So, no need for me to waste any more of my, or your time. Have a good day.

Oh, and for the record, in technical discussions, I agree proper terminology is important so my apologies to all if I caused any confusion there. Certainly all can see Endymio's concise clarifications to sort it all out.

 

[Rover4444]

i live 10 stories up in a sky scraper. Not gonna happen lol.

You don't actually have to use the solar functionality of a solar generator, it just acts like a big battery when it's unplugged and as a UPS when it's plugged in (if it has that functionality). If it's the safety of lithium batteries you're worried about, I'm pretty sure most of them use safer chemistries, at least with the known brands. I guess the right term would be "power station" if you don't have any panels attached...

Oh come on. Of course it is true. Are you seriously going to suggest a 600VA UPS, for example, will provide equal or more runtime than a 1500VA UPS with the same load?

Yes. A River 3 will outperform any 12V 9Ah x2 based UPS at the same load. What you said was indeed bullshit.

 

[alawadhi3000]

Oh come on. Of course it is true. Are you seriously going to suggest a 600VA UPS, for example, will provide equal or more runtime than a 1500VA UPS with the same load? As for 20 minutes, that is not unrealistic at all.

He's right, its a complete BS.

Assuming inverter efficiency is the same, runtime is determined by the battery size, not UPS rating.

 

[de.das.dude]

@de.das.dude - since you indicate you totally understand this relationship, in theory and precisely with your specific hardware, I fail to see why you even came here seeking help. Along with Endymio arguing over the minutia of the terminology, you guys clearly have it all figured out as to why you are only getting 5 minutes of runtime.

Last tine i checked, products can come from different manufacturers and all things are not created the same. Hence. For my max load of 550W, yes a 1100VA would have been sufficient, but it comes with 2x 12V 7.2aH battery. I didnt go for the 1500VA one because you said so, its because i checked its specs and it said it had 2x 9aH batteries.

I came here for brand advice, APC is kind of overpriced here considering it doesnt take a lot of effort for me myself to make a decent(not so efficient) inverter circuit and get some motorcycle or car batteries to make a UPS lol.

i do understand electrical and electronics because it was one of my majors while getting my BE in mechanical engineering which is why i called out on your BS because not only is it wrong but it is actively bad consumer advice.

This is like a mechanic suggesting someone to replace a car's tires because of wear and tear without checking if their alignment is wack which is causing more wear and tear.

 

[hclarkjr]

this is what i have and it saved me couple days ago from massive power surge, it stopped it cold and shut everything down before any damage. well worth the money APC Back-UPS Pro, 1500VA, Tower, 120V, 10 NEMA 5-15R outlets, LCD, 1 USB Type C + 1 USB Type A ports - BN1500M2 | APC USA

 

[Waldorf]

Lithium isnt the issue, its what comes after, that determines how "sensitive" the tech is.
big difference between say lipo and life.

@Rover4444
the solar/gen type would be ok, but not all are doing pure sine out, and the larger capacities are usually more expensive than a UPS,
ignoring you most likely wont have any filtering/stabilizing of income power (vs UPS), doesnt support protection of network/phone or connection to pc/sw.

so while you might be able to get the "battery power", you probably wont get many other "UPS" features.

 

[Rover4444]

Lithium isnt the issue, its what comes after, that determines how "sensitive" the tech is.
big difference between say lipo and life.

@Rover4444
the solar/gen type would be ok, but not all are doing pure sine out, and the larger capacities are usually more expensive than a UPS,
ignoring you most likely wont have any filtering/stabilizing of income power (vs UPS), and usually doesnt support protection of network/phone or connection to pc/sw.

so while you might be able to get the "battery power", you probably wont likely get many other "UPS" features.

Definitely true, all valid points. However if you really do want more runtime, I think they're the most cost-effective choice.

Thankfully most manufacturers have moved onto LiFe chemistries.

 

[Waldorf]

@Rover4444
even if, no EMI filter/AVR for incoming power is too much of a loss for little more up time.
then i rather get a UPS that allows to daisy chain batteries.

 

[Shrek]

Eh? Your PC PSU losses are there 100% of the time, UPS or not. Not that it's relevant to the point of runtime of a UPS, which presupposes it is engaged.

Just to clarify, I was taking about the UPS losses (for an off-line UPS).

 

[Rover4444]

@Rover4444
even if, no EMI filter/AVR for incoming power is too much of a loss for little more up time.
then i rather get a UPS that allows to daisy chain batteries.

What are those, and do you really need them? I'd like to see an UPS that can daisy chain batteries, too.

 

[Bill_Bright]

it is actively bad consumer advice.

It's bad advice to verify the electronics is actually performing according to published specs??? Yeah right. As I advised multiple times???

You accuse me of providing bad advice. Please show everyone what actual advice I provided that was wrong.

This is like a mechanic suggesting someone to replace a car's tires because of wear and tear without checking if their alignment is wack which is causing more wear and tear.

Total nonsense! I specifically advised you no less than 4 times to verify the demands your electronics were actually making with a kill-a-watt meter. But you decided your calculations, using published specs, was good enough.

i do understand electrical and electronics because it was one of my majors while getting my BE in mechanical engineering

That's a common issue with engineers, BTW. Including EEs. They understand the theory, then assume theory automatically works in practice, out in "the field". But any qualified tech who really does understand electronics and has genuine experience out in the field, knows that theory and real-world frequently don't jibe. Which is why any good technician worth his or her salt will verify the electronics is working to specs, by actually measuring and testing to make sure, instead of assuming it is.

This is particularly true when that electronics does not appear to be meeting specs - like when a 1500VA UPS only provides 5 minutes of runtime when "theory" and published specs suggest runtimes should be longer with those connected devices.

This is why Ford, GM, Honda, BMW, etc. have their own test tracks, so those mechanical engineers can verify their new designs will hold up to the expected stresses the theory indicates it should. This is why they then take their designs back to the shop, strip them down, get out their calipers and laser alignment tools and other precision measuring equipment and actually verify the theory is holding up in practice. Or did you forget that from your ME schooling?

then i rather get a UPS that allows to daisy chain batteries.

This is wise advice - but ONLY if the UPS are designed to support daisy chained batteries. And to ensure clarity, note Waldorf specifically said, this is about daisy chaining "batteries", not daisy chaining UPS.

Is it OK to daisy chain UPSs? | Eaton

You should never daisy chain uninterruptible power supply (UPS) systems. Discover why daisy-chaining or the approach of linking together more than one UPS is not advised ── and explore the safe alternatives.

Daisy Chaining UPS - APC USA (not my bold underline),

APC does not recommend that you daisy-chain two or more UPSs together.
If you are looking for extra run-time, we recommend a product with the capability of adding extra, external battery packs.

This is one APC offers. I did not dig too deep but it seems, going by the prices, those Cyberpower offers are for serious commercial applications.

The "theory" here is rather simple. UPS capacities do not add together when strapped together (daisy chained) like two batteries/cells in a flashlight will. They are just two identical links in the same chain. One breaks, the chain is broken. Not to mention the first UPS must assume the additional load on the circuit placed by the second UPS.

Plus, if the first UPS provides a crude approximated sinewave during a power outage, the second UPS may see that waveform as dirty and kick in needlessly. This is exactly why UPS should NEVER be plugged into surge and spike protectors too. The "clamped" waveform from a surge protector may be seen as dirty by the UPS.

The opposite is true too, BTW. You should never plug a surge and spike protector into an UPS because the UPS may see the load as unstable. If you need extra outlets, I use and recommend 18 inch 4-way spider extension cords.

I'd like to see an UPS that can daisy chain batteries, too.

I have one of these APC UPS. Note the rear image shows a "Battery Pack" connector for that purpose.

 

[Endymio]

You accuse me of providing bad advice. Please show everyone what actual advice I provided that was wrong.

How many more examples do you need?

...This is particularly true when that electronics does not appear to be meeting specs - like when a 1500VA UPS only provides 5 minutes of runtime when "theory" and published specs suggest runtimes should be longer

There you go again. There is no direct relationship between the max power rating of a UPS and its runtime. None. Consumer UPSes often have a weak correlation -- especially within the same brand line -- but that's not the same thing at all.

In one of my labs, there was an ultracap based UPS rated for 60,000 VA. It's runtime was about 15 seconds.

I have one of these APC UPS. Note the rear image shows a "Battery Pack" connector for that purpose.

Of course. And if you daisy-chain these UPSes together, you can effectively reach nearly any runtime you wish. Which is why all your earlier remarks about them "not being intended for" extended gaming or printing are hogwash.

What you two don't seem to understand is the relationship between power and energy. Power is the amount of energy divided by the time it took to use the energy,

Or, more precisely, power is the first time derivative of energy -- a fact I learned nearly 10 years before receiving my graduate degree in physics. Take your appeals to authority elsewhere.

 

[Waldorf]

@Rover4444
i hope you asked rhetorically, as it makes you look like you don't have much of a clue regarding UPS/features, and might wanna read up on things before giving (UPS) advice.

even if its use is for pure blackout protection (save shutdown), i wouldn't spend a single dime on a unit that doesn't have it.

and ups with battery daisy chaining are common for +20y, maybe just not with consumers.

 

[Bill_Bright]

even if its use is for pure blackout protection (save shutdown), i wouldn't spend a single dime on a unit that doesn't have it.

I couldn't agree more with this. As I noted earlier, it is the AVR feature of a good UPS that makes them so important. Backup power in the event of a full power outage is just a minor, important but minor in comparison, bonus feature. It is important to note that most sudden, unexpected (not scheduled) power outages are very "dirty". That is they are often accompanied with multiple and often extreme surges, spikes and dips and sags. This is especially true as power is being restored (scheduled or unscheduled) as every AC, refrigerator, light, etc. in the neighborhood on that leg of the grid puts HUGE demands on the grid all at once.

There you go again. There is no direct relationship between the max power rating of a UPS and its runtime. None. Consumer UPSes often have a weak correlation -- especially within the same brand line -- but that's not the same thing at all.

There I go again? Gee whiz dude. You don't even understand what you are arguing about - either that or you are intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue, which is just deceitful.

NOTHING in my comment that YOU QUOTED had anything to do with max power rating and runtime relationships.

My comment was all about physically measuring (with test equipment, not a pencil) the actual real-world demands of the connected devices. That is, to actually verify what the real-world demands on the UPS are - thus ensuring the connected hardware is functioning properly and to specs.

Sorry you are so blind with bias and your intent to look right and others wrong, you cannot even understand what my comment, that you quoted, was about.

If you are seriously trying to suggest the load on a UPS does not affect runtime, then you've either lost too many of those little gray cells or your graduate degree in physics isn't worth the paper it is printed on. And before you jump without looking again, I did NOT say "only" the load.

Or, more precisely, power is the first time derivative of energy

If you are trying to impress by being more precise (noting my definition was NOT wrong), then at least be right and precise, okay?

Power is NOT the first time derivative of energy. It is the first time derivative of "work done", or "energy used" or transferred with respect to "time". Something we learned in middle school.

How many more examples do you need?

Still waiting for just one. What "wrong" advice did I give? Did I use the wrong terminology? Yes. And I already admitted and apologized for that. But wrong advice? Show us.

 

[Shrek]

Unless thigs have changed, AVR kicks in to change the voltage relatively slowly.

 

[Bill_Bright]

AVR kicks in to change the voltage relatively slowly.

Relative to what? It actually is pretty quick compared to cutover or transfer times (the time it takes to cut over to battery) which is typically 10ms or less, often ~4 to 8ms on the better UPS.

I believe a good UPS will react to such anomalies in the 10ths of a ms.

If AVR was too slow, the UPS would almost constantly be flipping back and forth from mains to battery and back again. Not good.

I note too many, if not most better UPSs with AVR allow the user to adjust sensitivity. My APC does.

 

[Shrek]

A period (1/60th second)

I thought mechanical relays were used.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Hmmm, just tried to find some actual specs for such buck (or trim) and boost features, but sadly, can't seem to find any. But several sources confirm that AVR is the "first line of defense" at suppressing the high-voltage events (surges and spikes) and to boost the voltage for the low-voltage events (dips and sags). But if/once the anomaly is out of range (too excessive or too long a duration), it will switch to battery.

I thought mechanical relays were used.

No, they would be too slow - at least for the AVR feature. I note the new ATX Form Factor requirement dictates "hold-up" times of 12ms at 100% load and recommends a minimum 17ms at 80%. So the AVR will try to hold it, until it can't (due to the extreme in voltage change, and/or duration of the anomaly). Then the switch-over to battery is by relay, however, as indicated by the "click".

"Hold-up" is the PSU maintaining output voltages when the input voltage drops below 90% of the mains voltage.

This is why the hold-up requirement for computer PSUs is more important than many think. A voltage drop of 18ms is too quick for us mere humans to see (as a flicker in the lights) but long enough for our PSUs to stop output.

A period (1/60th second)

1000ms / 60 = 16.6667ms so I think that is where they got the minimum of 17ms requirement.