The Witcher 2 Contains Secret Sauce To 'Catch 100% Of Pirates'

[Easy Rhino]

would it be ethical to sneek into a movie theater without paying because you don't know what to expect. and only pay based on whether it met your expectations? of course not. pirates, burn in a fire.

 

[reverze]

right or wrong, they will lose money over this. alot of people bought the game cause it was good , well supported, and no DRM in the end. Thats why they made these huge profits.

These lawsuits wont scare anyone outside the USA. And alot of goodwil will be lost.
Remember Ubisoft with their uncracked superstrong DRM? As they said themselves, piracy was annihalited for those games. But they had to remove it not so long ago cause they actually lost alot of money on all those games with the DRM no matter the quality of those games.

 

[qubit]

Can we shift the topic a little?
We've disucssed piracy to no end in a bajiliion threads, but we never really all tossed in our thoughts about refunds or returns.

If I buy something (physical) that I don't like or does not meet my expectations I can usually return it.
That's a little difficult with virtual items as they could have been copied before return.
What do you think would be a fair return policy for both the buyers and sellers in this case?

I think with something like Steam which has account-based DRM, they should certainly offer refunds - perhaps with a 3 or 7 day cooling off period, after which you can't claim a refund. They should also allow unrestricted trading between members, otherwise they are denying people's first sale rights.

I'm pretty sure that one or two other platforms out there support this (the refunds at least) although I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head.

 

[Easy Rhino]

apparently not paying for something and bitching about it has become a "right." the end of society. go die in a fire.

 

[entropy13]

Can we shift the topic a little?
We've disucssed piracy to no end in a bajiliion threads, but we never really all tossed in our thoughts about refunds or returns.

If I buy something (physical) that I don't like or does not meet my expectations I can usually return it.
That's a little difficult with virtual items as they could have been copied before return.
What do you think would be a fair return policy for both the buyers and sellers in this case?

Remove 3rd party, reduce release date prices to $10-$15, make the prevailing prices (after 6 months I guess) be in the $5-$10 range. Likelihood of wanting refunds are reduced because the prices they were bought in the first place were reduced.

apparently not paying for something and bitching about it has become a "right." the end of society. go die in a fire.

That by itself cannot be the end of society. It could be even argued that such developments are just changes in society.

It's more likely "the end of society as Easy Rhino sees society as."

 

[Kreij]

I think with something like Steam which has account-based DRM, they should certainly offer refunds - perhaps with a 3 or 7 day cooling off period, after which you can't claim a refund. They should also allow unrestricted trading between members, otherwise they are denying people's first sale rights.

I'm pretty sure that one or two other platforms out there support this (the refunds at least) although I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head.

This may work for something like Steam, where they can track the hours you've played to see if yoiu were really just "testing the waters", but what about retail purchases that do not use Steamworks as their DRM?

There is also the issue that some games, though quite good, do not contain a lot of hours of content. What is a fair measure of "trying to see if you like it"?

 

[Easy Rhino]

Remove 3rd party, reduce release date prices to $10-$15, make the prevailing prices (after 6 months I guess) be in the $5-$10 range. Likelihood of wanting refunds are reduced because the prices they were bought in the first place were reduced.



That by itself cannot be the end of society. It could be even argued that such developments are just changes in society.

It's more likely "the end of society as Easy Rhino sees society as."

yes, that's right. society can exist when legal theft exists. seriously now.....

 

[entropy13]

yes, that's right. society can exist when legal theft exists. seriously now.....

Society is shaped by the norms adopted by its members. Also, society as a whole can also impose norms upon its individuals. Norms does not need "legality" per se, although technically speaking "rule of law" is a norm by itself.

Although "law" is a norm of society, that does not necessarily mean that it is superior to other norms already simply by the fact of it being a "lawful" norm. Slavery was a norm as well, for example.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Society is shaped by the norms adopted by its members. Also, society as a whole can also impose norms upon its individuals. Norms does not need "legality" per se, although technically speaking "rule of law" is a norm by itself.

Although "law" is a norm of society, that does not necessarily mean that it is superior to other norms already simply by the fact of it being a "lawful" norm. Slavery was a norm as well, for example.

that is irrelevant. if legal theft exists then society cannot function. history shows this to be true over the course of 3000 years. maybe they don't teach this in high school anymore.

 

[reverze]

the thing is with muisc games and movies is that it costs a set amount of money to produce. And then it ( lets cut out the internet for a second ) is/was sold a piece of plastic with a couple million holes punched in it. They sell you something worth in its physical form around 10-15 cents for 60 dollars / euros if its a game.

That is a massive .... profit or ripoff depending how you see it. it costs millions no doubt to produce games these days but in the end they sell you "air", and when you download you copy the dots in plastic on someone elses PC that come to you through fiber optic impulses and are set in the same order on your harddrive with magnetic impulses.....

Its a copy, legal or illegal set aside. If you have been brought up in a world without copyright and never been brainwashed with the whole "omg piracy is stealing!" then its very difficult to have moral objection to copy data of any kind, and to justify anyone who ever did that to pay 1000 euros for every copy they made without explicit permission of the "owner" who was the first to punch holes in plastic in a certain order.........

food for thought

 

[DannibusX]

I'm just going to leave this here...

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141423

 

[Easy Rhino]

the thing is with muisc games and movies is that it costs a set amount of money to produce. And then it ( lets cut out the internet for a second ) is/was sold a piece of plastic with a couple million holes punched in it. They sell you something worth in its physical form around 10-15 cents for 60 dollars / euros if its a game.

That is a massive .... profit or ripoff depending how you see it. it costs millions no doubt to produce games these days but in the end they sell you "air", and when you download you copy the dots in plastic on someone elses PC that come to you through fiber optic impulses and are set in the same order on your harddrive with magnetic impulses.....

Its a copy, legal or illegal set aside. If you have been brought up in a world without copyright and never been brainwashed with the whole "omg piracy is stealing!" then its very difficult to have moral objection to copy data of any kind, and to justify anyone who ever did that to pay 1000 euros for every copy they made without explicit permission of the "owner" who was the first to punch holes in plastic in a certain order.........

food for thought

that is childish logic. based on your logic you would have a software developer sell one copy for $100,000 and 10,000 copies for $10. obviously supply and demand does not work like that. do better!

 

[entropy13]

that is irrelevant. if legal theft exists then society as we know it right now, and as we have seen it in its other, previous forms, cannot function.

Fixed.

history shows this to be true over the course of 3000 years.

How about over the course of 10,000 years?

Regardless, since we are talking about society, and a "norm", the only certain way we could ever know what would really happen is to...know what would really happen in the future...by getting to that future.

Pre-historic society is significantly less "developed" when looked at by modern viewers, but since there is the absence of the norms of "legality" and "theft" as we know them right now today, it doesn't necessarily mean that society then ceased to function. They just functioned differently.

No concept of theft since among communities property is communal, and inter-community interaction was quite rare until the end of the last Ice Age.

Even in our pre-colonial period for example, because each barangay are communal, meaning everything is owned by the community, the concept of "theft" as we know it today simply does not exist. And if another barangay "steals" property of one barangay, it is not "theft" but an "act of war." Datus (communal leaders) are appointed by barangay elders by virtue of their capability of defending the barangay, not by virtue of having the most property, the most influence among the people, etc.

 

[reverze]

that is childish logic. based on your logic you would have a software developer sell one copy for $100,000 and 10,000 copies for $10. obviously supply and demand does not work like that. do better!

i am not argueing about price, i am argueing about one of the basics of economy which is added value which doesnt go for music / game / movies.

 

[Frick]

I year ago this thread would not have existed. All it does is making the forums worse.

 

[entropy13]

I year ago this thread would not have existed. All it does is making the forums worse.

Technically you're right since this was started in March 3, 2011.

 

[Kreij]

If you feel that changes at TPU need to be discussed, please make a thread in the Comments and Fedback section, not in the thread itself.
Please do not use the "What's wrong with the forums" thread as that is not its purpose.
Start a new one.

Just a tip from yer ol' Uncle Kreij.

 

[Frick]

If you took his computer he'd be pissed, if you came round and copied his computer I'm sure he wouldn't give a shit.

( which is what piracy is)

If I designed and built the computer myself hells yes I would get pissed. Likewise with a painting. Lets say you have an exhibition with your works on display and someone came in and copied your works in every small detail. He didn't take a photo, he copied it. I'd get mad as heck.

If you feel that changes at TPU need to be discussed, please make a thread in the Comments and Fedback section, not in the thread itself.
Please do not use the "What's wrong with the forums" thread as that is not its purpose.
Start a new one.

Just a tip from yer ol' Uncle Kreij.

I'll just make a pirate thread instead. It's obviously OK.

 

[saeoh]

would it be ethical to sneek into a movie theater without paying because you don't know what to expect. and only pay based on whether it met your expectations? of course not. pirates, burn in a fire.

Well, here, we can get full refund of a movie within 30min

If I buy something (physical) that I don't like or does not meet my expectations I can usually return it.
That's a little difficult with virtual items as they could have been copied before return.
What do you think would be a fair return policy for both the buyers and sellers in this case?

Either good demos(have to give same performance as full game) or refund within certain time frame (like 3-4hours or next day morning)

 

[entropy13]

If I designed and built the computer myself hells yes I would get pissed. Likewise with a painting. Lets say you have an exhibition with your works on display and someone came in and copied your works in every small detail. He didn't take a photo, he copied it. I'd get mad as heck.

Well, ever since painting began, "imitation painting" began too. IIRC Time had an article talking about the "imitation painting" industry of China.

 

[qubit]

This may work for something like Steam, where they can track the hours you've played to see if yoiu were really just "testing the waters", but what about retail purchases that do not use Steamworks as their DRM?

Indeed, that's why I specified an account-based distribution service. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the answer is - this is the proverbial grey area and obviously some people would abuse it.

There is also the issue that some games, though quite good, do not contain a lot of hours of content. What is a fair measure of "trying to see if you like it"?

I guess this isn't so hard to figure out. A couple of examples.

For a single player game with a linear story line such as Half-Life 2* it will be split into chapters or sections. The developer will know how much they want to allow the game to be played and could allow only the first two or three chapters/sections to be played while allowing a refund. When this point is reached, an alert could pop up warning that progress beyond this point will forfeit the refund. Also, a time-out of say, two weeks would be reasonable in which to decide.

For games that just have a deathmatch mode perhaps, like the Unreal Tournament series, perhaps they could be time limited and/or limited to certain maps and game modes.

There's lots of variables and possibilities that could be adjusted here and these are just two possibilities.

The descriptions above sound very much like demo games, don't they - and they are. I think we all remember a while back when the big games houses said they would stop doing demos, because it was "very expensive" to make them. What BS. They're just greedy and don't want their games to be scrutinized before purchase, in case people realize what a crock their buying into. No, what should happen, is the return of free demos, like we used to get. If one can have a decent free demo, then it becomes reasonable not to allow refunds. One modern game that does have a demo mode is Bulletstorm - and more power to the developer.

*Ancient example lol, but it's my favourite linear shooter of all time.

 

[Kreij]

@Frick : I know you hate everything. I've know it for years.
If you have a gripe, speak up in the right place and please tell people to do the same.
You're Frick, you will always be Frick, but your OUR Frick and I would really not feel comfortable if I did not think there was a Gremlin under the bridge every time I walked over the stream.

Carry on.

 

[Frick]

Well, ever since painting began, "imitation painting" began too. IIRC Time had an article talking about the "imitation painting" industry of China.

Totally true, but I'm not sure I would be ok with that. It's the same with software really.

Anyway, screw it.

 

[qubit]

I year ago this thread would not have existed. All it does is making the forums worse.

Not at all. Remember, I have written a hard-hitting news story about real events happening in the real world. Would you really rather be kept in the dark about it? Would you really want to buy this game, being ignorant of any potential spying of your personal data that these clowns may be doing to you, all to serve their own interests only? You'd be stupid to want to. Yeah, I directly called for a boycott over this in the story and I'm proud of it.

So, what about the websites I used as my sources - are they also wrong for publishing such a story? What about all the other websites that covered it all over the internet? Should TPU be too timid to cover such a controversial subject just to keep the forums sickly sweet, "happy" - and boring? Or should TPU grow a pair and cover these issues? Of course it should and I know that a lot of people on TPU agree with my viewpoint, too.

So quit yer whingin' and enjoy the news stories and the forums that hang off them.

 

[Easy Rhino]

i am not argueing about price, i am argueing about one of the basics of economy which is added value which doesnt go for music / game / movies.

value based on demand, not on supply. if an artist thinks that only 1 copy will sell because 10,000 will be stolen then that artist will sell their work for 100,000. basic economics. sheesh, kids these days.