• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD Dragged to Court over Core Count on "Bulldozer"

Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
2,785 (0.58/day)
Location
New Zealand
System Name MoneySink
Processor 2600K @ 4.8
Motherboard P8Z77-V
Cooling AC NexXxos XT45 360, RayStorm, D5T+XSPC tank, Tygon R-3603, Bitspower
Memory 16GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3-1600C8
Video Card(s) GTX 780 SLI (EVGA SC ACX + Giga GHz Ed.)
Storage Kingston HyperX SSD (128) OS, WD RE4 (1TB), RE2 (1TB), Cav. Black (2 x 500GB), Red (4TB)
Display(s) Achieva Shimian QH270-IPSMS (2560x1440) S-IPS
Case NZXT Switch 810
Audio Device(s) onboard Realtek yawn edition
Power Supply Seasonic X-1050
Software Win8.1 Pro
Benchmark Scores 3.5 litres of Pale Ale in 18 minutes.
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
97 (0.02/day)
Processor Intel i7 4960x Ivy-Bridge E @ 4.6 Ghz @ 1.42V
Motherboard x79 AsRock Extreme 11.0
Cooling EK Supremacy Copper Waterblock
Memory 65.5 GBs Corsair Platinum Kit @ 666.7Mhz
Video Card(s) PCIe 3.0 x16 -- Asus GTX Titan Maxwell
Storage Samsung 840 500GBs + OCZ Vertex 4 500GBs 2x 1TB Samsung 850
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster ZXR
Power Supply Corsair 1000W
Mouse Razer Naga
Keyboard Corsair K95
Software Zbrush, 3Dmax, Maya, Softimage, Vue, Sony Vegas Pro, Acid, Soundforge, Adobe Aftereffects, Photoshop


So that means that what the OS reporting is wrong? It clearly says Cores: 4, Logical processors: 8

If you right-click on the graph, left click and highlight "graphs to show >," and select Logical Processors, it might show 16 little graphs of "FordGT90Concept please insert what you want to call it in here because you feel strongly that AMD must burn in a fire for their fraudulent misrepresentation of cores" to further prove your point, Vulkan. If it doesn't show 16 little graphs, then on an ironic side, it would support Ford's point. Maybe? Doubt it.

Now that I think about it, looking at your performance tab, Vulkan, maybe AMD just markets it's CPUs as having X amount of Logical Processors, but they call it "Core Processors. Intel market CPUs based on y-amount of Cores which are really 2 Logical Processors to 1 Core. I think that's one part of where the problem occurs between FordGT90Concept and others having their disagreements.

If we go back to the original Topic of Discussion, the Lawsuit is probably dead on arrival. I don't believe the court is going to award damages. At best, it's a marketing blunder on AMD's end.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.46/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
It'll show 8. Logical Processors graphs always matches Logical Processors text.


...maybe AMD just markets it's CPUs as having X amount of Logical Processors...
And that's the problem. Only AMD does that and only for the Bulldozer/Piledriver/Steamroller series of processors; hence, sued.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
911 (0.23/day)
System Name BlueKnight
Processor Intel Celeron G1610 @ 2.60GHz
Motherboard Gigabyte GA-H61M-S2PH (rev. 1.0)
Memory 1x 4GB DDR3 @ 1333MHz (Kingston KVR13N9S8/4)
Video Card(s) Onboard
Storage 1x 160GB (Western Digital WD1600AAJS-75M0A0)
Display(s) 1x 20" 1600x900 (PHILIPS 200VW9FBJ/78)
Case μATX Case (Generic)
Power Supply 300W (Generic)
Software Debian GNU/Linux 8.7 (jessie)
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
748 (0.18/day)
Location
Oceania
Negative. Cores are complete compute units. It would be classified as a single core with 4 threads per core by anyone that isn't AMD.

@Pill Monster: Since you clearly don't like scholarly articles, try Wikipedia on for size: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_multithreading
All of the above explain SMT in detail. Some describe Hyper-Threading in detail.
I love scholarly articles.

What I don't like is the strawman approach of referencing materialto validate a point without specifying the actual content which supposedly validates the point
The strawman doesn't know if there is any supported evidence in the article, but he's hoping there is and other guy will find it and be disproven.


I don't have time for this shit.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
2,388 (0.63/day)
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia USA
System Name Home Brewed
Processor i9-7900X and i7-8700K
Motherboard ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme & ASUS Prime Z-370 A
Cooling Corsair 280mm AIO & Thermaltake Water 3.0
Memory 64GB DDR4-3000 GSKill RipJaws-V & 32GB DDR4-3466 GEIL Potenza
Video Card(s) 2X-GTX-1080 SLI & 2 GTX-1070Ti 8GB G1 Gaming in SLI
Storage Both have 2TB HDDs for storage, 480GB SSDs for OS, and 240GB SSDs for Steam Games
Display(s) ACER 28" B286HK 4K & Samsung 32" 1080P
Case NZXT Source 540 & Rosewill Rise Chassis
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply Corsair RM1000 & Corsair RM850
Mouse Generic
Keyboard Razer Blackwidow Tournament & Corsair K90
Software Win-10 Professional
Benchmark Scores yes
It'll show 8. Logical Processors graphs always matches Logical Processors text.



And that's the problem. Only AMD does that and only for the Bulldozer/Piledriver/Steamroller series of processors; hence, sued.

So if you guys will,....help me to understand why this PC has eight Cores (little green boxes) that all go to work when I run the CPU-Z multi-thread Benchmark? Is it eight,....or just a tricky four?

AMD FX-9590

Boogar.JPG
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
748 (0.18/day)
Location
Oceania





2mins on Google and look what I found - Intel whitepapers with a crystal clear explanation of HT, just for you.

"A single processor appear as 2 logical processors". APPEAR. How does SMT work when there is only one physical core? Because it's using software, obviously.

See where it says OS can SCHEDULE a thread. Note SCHEDULE. Not excecute. SCHEDULE.

If u don't get that then u never will.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
41 (0.01/day)
Processor i7 4930k
Motherboard Rampage IV Extreme
Cooling Thermalright HR-02 Macho
Memory 4 X 4096 MB G.Skill DDR3 1866 9-10-9-26
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GV-N780OC-3GD
Storage Crucial M4 128GB, M500 240GB, Samsung HD103SJ 1TB
Display(s) Planar PX2710MW 27" 1920x1080
Case Corsair 500R
Power Supply RAIDMAX RX-1200AE
Software Windows 10 64-bit





2mins on Google and look what I found - Intel whitepapers with a crystal clear explanation of HT, just for you.

"A single processor appear as 2 logical processors". APPEAR. How does SMT work when there is only one physical core? Because it's using software, obviously.

See where it says OS can SCHEDULE a thread. Note SCHEDULE. Not excecute. SCHEDULE.

If u don't get that then u never will.

within the same document, 4 pages later, you can easily reach it by searching "5%" as keyword
intel said:
This implementation of Hyper-Threading Technology added less than 5% to the relative chip size and maximum power requirements, but can provide performance benefits much greater than that.
it doesn't explicitly say additional transistors but most likely there're some extra stuff within the chip compared with implementation without HT.
I don't think the addition hardware (if any) is for computing though. Can't be an additional core at all.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.46/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
So if you guys will,....help me to understand why this PC has eight Cores (little green boxes) that all go to work when I run the CPU-Z multi-thread Benchmark? Is it eight,....or just a tricky four?

AMD FX-9590

View attachment 69065
Because FX-9590 has 8 logical processors and 4 cores (two-threads per core). Windows 8 and newer shows the break down (sockets, cores, and logical processors) in Task Manager where Windows 7 and older do not.

"A single processor appear as 2 logical processors".
That's the nature of SMT. It tells the OS to send it more threads. I've seen 2- (e.g. Pentium 4 w/ HT through Core i7-6700K), 4- (e.g. UltraSPARC T1), and 8-way (e.g. SPARC T5) SMT implementations.

How does SMT work when there is only one physical core?
The scheduler in each core shuffles between the two threads filling in gaps in core resources better utilizing the hardware resources in the core. As the name implies, the threads execute simultaneously like a dual core would but it lacks the hardware resources to get dual-core-like performance. SMT (all versions) is designed to improve throughput.

Bulldozer is unique in that they put more hardware resources in it to improve SMT performance which is a good thing; AMD's mistake was calling it an "8-core" when it clearly is not.

Because it's using software, obviously.
There is zero software involved beyond the usual when dealing with a multiprocessor.

See where it says OS can SCHEDULE a thread. Note SCHEDULE. Not excecute. SCHEDULE.
All threads need to be scheduled before they can execute. For HTT to be of any use, a thread has to be scheduled for two logical processors of the same core at the same time.

within the same document, 4 pages later, you can easily reach it by searching "5%" as keyword

it doesn't explicitly say additional transistors but most likely there're some extra stuff within the chip compared with implementation without HT.
I don't think the addition hardware (if any) is for computing though. Can't be an additional core at all.
Yeah, Hyperthreading performance, depending on task, can be something like -2.5% to 30%. 5% average sounds fair.

It does take some extra transistors (I don't think Intel ever said how many) to add SMT to a core but the goal is to utilize far more transistors that would otherwise not be used down the pipeline.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
477 (0.08/day)
System Name It does stuff
Processor Ryzen 3600
Motherboard B550 Gaming X V2
Cooling Stock
Memory 16GB DDR4 3600
Video Card(s) RX 6700XT
Storage Too much
Display(s) 27" & 21.5"
Case Antec 300
Power Supply 750W
The Bulldozer family groups pairs of cores into modules. Within these modules, some of the hardware is shared between the two cores. Performance problems can occur when both cores try to use this shared hardware heavily at the same time. This is similar, if less pronounced, to the per-thread performance penalty of running two threads on the same physical core using Intel's Hyperthreading.

In the early members of the family (Bulldozer and Piledriver), the instruction decoder (capable of decoding four instructions per cycle) is shared. It decodes instructions for one core each cycle, switching to the other core (if it's active) on the next cycle. In later members of the family (Steamroller and Excavator), a separate decoder is provided for each core, eliminating this bottleneck.

In all members of the family, the L1 I-cache and D-cache are shared. Since these caches are quite small (compared to Phenom II), this causes cache thrashing at a higher level when both cores are active than when only one is. The L1 caches are larger in Excavator than in previous members of the family, which contributes to its better efficiency.

The FPU is also shared in all members of the family. Most FPU instructions are multiplies or adds, so they use the FMAC pipelines, of which there are two per module. When both cores are running FPU-heavy code, effectively only one FMAC pipeline is available to each core. This is however no worse than in Phenom II, which had one multiplier and one adder in its FPU, in separate pipelines.




This is a diagram for one module, which has 2 cores. It has 2 integer units, 1 FPU, and shares an L2 cache. Conceptually, it is twice as fast at integer math in a thread, and half as fast in floating point math.

Since most server/rendering workloads are integer based, CMT scales well in multi-threading - AS LONG AS the threads are being run correctly on modules, and not split between multiple modules unnecessarily.

Windows 7 has an issue with how Bulldozer-based processors get processor threads scheduled. W7 treats them like fully independent cores, and will willy-nilly schedule threads wherever. This can cause tasks that otherwise should share FPU resources, to split across multiple modules and will cause performance degradation.

This was changed in Windows 8/8.1/10, by treating the processor as a 4 core, 8 thread chip (instead of 8 core, 8 thread) in order to properly schedule threads. On a high level, this actually emulates SMT (Hyperthreading) and results in a decent performance boost in W8/W10 for AMD processors.

There is a patch (manual install) for windows 7 that makes it schedule in the same manner, though doesn't change the appearance of task manager. You still see all 8 cores.

I don't know who pissed in your tea Ford. You also keep stating your opinion as fact.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
41 (0.01/day)
Processor i7 4930k
Motherboard Rampage IV Extreme
Cooling Thermalright HR-02 Macho
Memory 4 X 4096 MB G.Skill DDR3 1866 9-10-9-26
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GV-N780OC-3GD
Storage Crucial M4 128GB, M500 240GB, Samsung HD103SJ 1TB
Display(s) Planar PX2710MW 27" 1920x1080
Case Corsair 500R
Power Supply RAIDMAX RX-1200AE
Software Windows 10 64-bit
Because FX-9590 has 8 logical processors and 4 cores (two-threads per core). Windows 8 and newer shows the break down (sockets, cores, and logical processors) in Task Manager where Windows 7 and older do not.


That's the nature of SMT. It tells the OS to send it more threads. I've seen 2- (e.g. Pentium 4 w/ HT through Core i7-6700K), 4- (e.g. UltraSPARC T1), and 8-way (e.g. SPARC T5) SMT implementations.


The scheduler in each core shuffles between the two threads filling in gaps in core resources better utilizing the hardware resources in the core. As the name implies, the threads execute simultaneously like a dual core would but it lacks the hardware resources to get dual-core-like performance. SMT (all versions) is designed to improve throughput.

Bulldozer is unique in that they put more hardware resources in it to improve SMT performance which is a good thing; AMD's mistake was calling it an "8-core" when it clearly is not.


There is zero software involved beyond the usual when dealing with a multiprocessor.


All threads need to be scheduled before they can execute. For HTT to be of any use, a thread has to be scheduled for two logical processors of the same core at the same time.


Yeah, Hyperthreading performance, depending on task, can be something like -2.5% to 30%. 5% average sounds fair.

It does take some extra transistors (I don't think Intel ever said how many) to add SMT to a core but the goal is to utilize far more transistors that would otherwise not be used down the pipeline.

in the document, intel claimed 5% additional die size. I personally interpret this as ~5% additional transistors.
The 5% figure here isn't for performance but I agree you claim for -2.5% ~ 30% performance increment though.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.46/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
This was changed in Windows 8/8.1/10, by treating the processor as a 4 core, 8 thread chip (instead of 8 core, 8 thread) in order to properly schedule threads. On a high level, this actually emulates SMT (Hyperthreading) and results in a decent performance boost in W8/W10 for AMD processors.
Got a source for that? I get that Bulldozer has a different logical processor order (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) compared to HTT (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) but the underlined part doesn't make sense.

By the way, the fact the order matters is proof they aren't cores. Legitimate cores have no preference; operating systems can park and unpark them as much as it wants as well as schedule whatever it wants wherever it wants.

I don't know who pissed in your tea Ford.
I don't drink tea. :laugh:

in the document, intel claimed 5% additional die size. I personally interpret this as ~5% additional transistors.
The 5% figure here isn't for performance but I agree you claim for -2.5% ~ 30% performance increment though.
My bad; thanks for the clarification.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
748 (0.18/day)
Location
Oceania
within the same document, 4 pages later, you can easily reach it by searching "5%" as keyword

it doesn't explicitly say additional transistors but most likely there're some extra stuff within the chip compared with implementation without HT.
I don't think the addition hardware (if any) is for computing though. Can't be an additional core at all.
by software I meant Windows, assigming threads to non existent cores lol OS is oblivious to what's going on...as usual it belives what the BIOS says.


And yeah from the whitepaper OOE (out of order execuction) has to do with it, and some extra transistors....
They even say (on page 8 I think) the primary differnce between HT and True is true cores never switch between threads, the HT cores halt the execution and switch threads constantly.


And of course all resources are shared, lol







Nothing to see here .....nothing new at least.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
41 (0.01/day)
Processor i7 4930k
Motherboard Rampage IV Extreme
Cooling Thermalright HR-02 Macho
Memory 4 X 4096 MB G.Skill DDR3 1866 9-10-9-26
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GV-N780OC-3GD
Storage Crucial M4 128GB, M500 240GB, Samsung HD103SJ 1TB
Display(s) Planar PX2710MW 27" 1920x1080
Case Corsair 500R
Power Supply RAIDMAX RX-1200AE
Software Windows 10 64-bit
by software I meant Windows, assigming threads to non existent cores lol OS is oblivious to what's going on...as usual it belives what the BIOS says.


And yeah from the whitepaper OOE (out of order execuction) has to do with it, and some extra transistors....
They even say (on page 8 I think) the primary differnce between HT and True is true cores never switch between threads, the HT cores halt the execution and switch threads constantly.


And of course all resources are shared, lol







Nothing to see here .....nothing new at least.

I'm not saying HT has extra compute resource that's not being shared. I just disagree your claim that HT is a purely software implementation. Intel did claim there'e a 5% die size increment and I personally interpret this as ~5% additional transistors.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
748 (0.18/day)
Location
Oceania
I'm not saying HT has extra compute resource that's not being shared. I just disagree your claim that HT is a purely software implementation. Intel did claim there'e a 5% die size increment and I personally interpret this as ~5% additional transistors.
I didn't "claim" HT was purely software so don't mince my words. I said as far as SMT goes cores it's software which it is.

The cores don't exist except in Windows Task Manager. The kernel schedular assigns threads to cores which in turn get scheduled, not executed...

You're detracting from the main debate anyway which is SMT. SMT is not here, as Intel said, - it's a concept.


Nothing else to say really,.
 

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.46/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
The part you circled is where Bulldozer is unique. There's a large chunk of silicon that isn't shared. That's also why it is not technically SMT--at least not entirely (I like to call it "hybridized"). But that's not what the lawsuit is about; the lawsuit is about AMD advertising "8-core" when the definition of "core" has to be stretched beyond the breaking point in order to describe a Bulldozer "integer core."

I said as far as SMT goes cores it's software which it is.
HTT isn't software--no SMT implementation is.

The cores don't exist except in Windows Task Manager.
If SMT is enabled, they appear everywhere from BIOS to operating system.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
41 (0.01/day)
Processor i7 4930k
Motherboard Rampage IV Extreme
Cooling Thermalright HR-02 Macho
Memory 4 X 4096 MB G.Skill DDR3 1866 9-10-9-26
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GV-N780OC-3GD
Storage Crucial M4 128GB, M500 240GB, Samsung HD103SJ 1TB
Display(s) Planar PX2710MW 27" 1920x1080
Case Corsair 500R
Power Supply RAIDMAX RX-1200AE
Software Windows 10 64-bit
I didn't "claim" HT was purely software so don't mince my words. I said as far as SMT goes cores it's software which it is.

The cores don't exist except in Windows Task Manager. The kernel schedular assigns threads to cores which in turn get scheduled, not executed...

You're detracting from the main debate anyway which is SMT. SMT is not here, as Intel said, - it's a concept.


Nothing else to say really,.

yes the extra core doesn't exist. However the extra thread isn't a software implementation. It's not some pieces of code within BIOS makes OS recognize the extra thread. The extra hardware within CPU Die does the job.
In fact, the HT of Xeon Phi (which is a rare case) can't be disabled. By all means the extra thread is a hardware implementation other than software implementation.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
748 (0.18/day)
Location
Oceania
Quick note before vacating this thread , I just remembered the reason SMT even came up was to illustrate how BD does have 8 real cores.

In that Intyel doc it states Xenon whitepaper HT threads canot SMT iover it's there in tyhe article plain it staesXenon has a limit of 6 threads
yes the extra core doesn't exist. However the extra thread isn't a software implementation. It's not some pieces of code within BIOS makes OS recognize the extra thread. The extra hardware within CPU Die does the job.
In fact, the HT of Xeon Phi (which is a rare case) can't be disabled. By all means the extra thread is a hardware implementation other than software implementation.

I'm not stupid mate, troll harder.... you sound ridiculous.







Anyway back to why SMT came up to begin with. It's to illustrate to u Ford if u even care, why BD does have 8 real cores.


In that intel whitepaper it says a 12 core Xenon with HT is capable of sending up to 6 commands per clock cycle,. Naturally because it has only 6 cores to execute them on. SMT on 6 cores, not 12. = 6 real cores.


An 8 core Vishera send 8 commands per clock cycle because it executes 8 threads on 8 cores. That's 8 threads similtanesly= SMT = real cores.




Time to vacate the thread ......
 

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
17,865 (2.88/day)
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K @ 4GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (2 x 8GB Corsair Vengeance Black DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2080 SUPER Gaming X Trio
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Black 4TB | WD Blue 6TB
Display(s) ASUS ROG Strix XG27UQR (4K, 144Hz, G-SYNC compatible) | Asus MG28UQ (4K, 60Hz, FreeSync compatible)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair AX1600i
Mouse Microsoft Intellimouse Pro - Black Shadow
Keyboard Yes
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
An 8 core Vishera send 8 commands per clock cycle because it executes 8 threads on 8 cores. That's 8 threads similtanesly= SMT = real cores.
I get you're pissed off at people seeing this differently to yourself, but I don't think it's as clear cut as that and maybe you'll respond to my post.

Why? Take the case of a Bulldozer CPU with just one module enabled. Execute a thread on one integer unit and it gives a certain performance. Now execute a second thread on the other core and the performance of each thread is less than one thread on one core and there's no way that this performance hit can be alleviated by better support hardware either. It's even worse with the FPU as there's only one of them, giving truly crap performance. This only happens because of the siamesed nature of the cores. It doesn't happen on AMD's older multicore CPUs nor on Intel's, potential memory bus bottlenecks aside.

Note that a similar performance hit happens on Intel too when HT is engaged and you don't see Intel calling that second virtual core a full CPU like AMD does. I remember seeing this graphically illustrated when I used to run the SETI@Home project on my single core Pentium 4 with HT more than a decade ago, before they went BOINC. Running two threads would case each individual thread to have something like 75-85% of the performance of just one, but overall performance was higher as two were being worked on at once.

Oh yeah, AMD pulled a number on us all right by making such a hybrid processor and confusing the definition of what a core is. :rolleyes: I remember the real "wtf?!" feeling I had when I first looked at that Bulldozer architecture diagram and it turns out I was right from its lack of performance. AMD tried to save a few pennies with this strategy and it bit them in the ass with poor performance, poor sales and now a lawsuit. Someone over there was very stupid.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
748 (0.18/day)
Location
Oceania
I get you're pissed off at people seeing this differently to yourself, but I don't think it's as clear cut as that and maybe you'll respond to my post.

Why? Take the case of a Bulldozer CPU with just one module enabled. Execute a thread on one integer unit and it gives a certain performance. Now execute a second thread on the other core and the performance of each thread is less than one thread on one core and there's no way that this performance hit can be alleviated by better support hardware either. It's even worse with the FPU as there's only one of them, giving truly crap performance. This only happens because of the siamesed nature of the cores. It doesn't happen on AMD's older multicore CPUs nor on Intel's, potential memory bus bottlenecks aside.

Note that a similar performance hit happens on Intel too when HT is engaged and you don't see Intel calling that second virtual core a full CPU like AMD does. I remember seeing this graphically illustrated when I used to run the SETI@Home project on my single core Pentium 4 with HT more than a decade ago, before they went BOINC. Running two threads would case each individual thread to have something like 75-85% of the performance of just one, but overall performance was higher as two were being worked on at once.

Oh yeah, AMD pulled a number on us all right by making such a hybrid processor and confusing the definition of what a core is. :rolleyes: I remember the real "wtf?!" feeling I had when I first looked at that Bulldozer architecture diagram and it turns out I was right from its lack of performance. AMD tried to save a few pennies with this strategy and it bit them in the ass with poor performance, poor sales and now a lawsuit. Someone over there was very stupid.


Oh please...just go away will you. I see things differently? You mean me and 95% of the other people who posted in in this abortion of a thread. Theres nothing to talk about, BD/PD has 8 cores, and the frivilous lawsuit will die




The topic was discussed at length when the chip got released. Seems like a bad case of dejavu..... sorry if I don't feel like revisiting the past....
 
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,092 (0.53/day)
System Name Ryzen 2023
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 7700
Motherboard Asrock B650E Steel Legend Wifi
Cooling Noctua NH-D15
Memory G Skill Flare X5 2x16gb cl32@6000 MHz
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 6950 XT Nitro + gaming Oc
Storage WESTERN DIGITAL 1TB 64MB 7k SATA600 Blue WD10EZEX, WD Black SN850X 1Tb nvme
Display(s) LG 27GP850P-B
Case Corsair 5000D airflow tempered glass
Power Supply Seasonic Prime GX-850W
Mouse A4Tech V7M bloody
Keyboard Genius KB-G255
Software Windows 10 64bit
Well the guy can sue all he wants. If they said that the FX 8xxx has 8 cores and a software reads it as 8 cores it's not false advertising. The fact that an intel quad core can beat it is not relevant in this case.

I don't think he will win in court. Either way I'm happy with my choice. I didn't have money for anything better at the time.
 

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
17,865 (2.88/day)
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K @ 4GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (2 x 8GB Corsair Vengeance Black DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2080 SUPER Gaming X Trio
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Black 4TB | WD Blue 6TB
Display(s) ASUS ROG Strix XG27UQR (4K, 144Hz, G-SYNC compatible) | Asus MG28UQ (4K, 60Hz, FreeSync compatible)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair AX1600i
Mouse Microsoft Intellimouse Pro - Black Shadow
Keyboard Yes
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Oh please...just go away will you. I see things differently? You mean me and 95% of the other people who posted in in this abortion of a thread. Theres nothing to talk about, BD/PD has 8 cores, and the frivilous lawsuit will die




The topic was discussed at length when the chip got released. Seems like a bad case of dejavu..... sorry if I don't feel like revisiting the past....
No, it has 4 siamesed cores who's performance suffers when running two threads on one. I tried to sympathize with you, but you got one hell of a shit attitude. I gave you a reasonable explanation of how I see it, so all you had to do is discuss it in a reasonable manner with me and show some respect. I'm not going anywhere.

Yeah, go on, just get off this thread like you were gonna. :nutkick:
 
Last edited:

the54thvoid

Super Intoxicated Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
13,058 (2.39/day)
Location
Glasgow - home of formal profanity
Processor Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar B650 (wifi)
Cooling be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4
Memory 32GB Kingston Fury
Video Card(s) Gainward RTX4070ti
Storage Seagate FireCuda 530 M.2 1TB / Samsumg 960 Pro M.2 512Gb
Display(s) LG 32" 165Hz 1440p GSYNC
Case Asus Prime AP201
Audio Device(s) On Board
Power Supply be quiet! Pure POwer M12 850w Gold (ATX3.0)
Software W10
Someone close this tired useless roundabout thread. We'll find out in about 'god knows how many' years which way it goes.

Until then it's just an utterly futile piss take of a discussion with two distinct camps, smashing their heads against walls.

You say potato, I say potato core.
 

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
17,865 (2.88/day)
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K @ 4GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (2 x 8GB Corsair Vengeance Black DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2080 SUPER Gaming X Trio
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Black 4TB | WD Blue 6TB
Display(s) ASUS ROG Strix XG27UQR (4K, 144Hz, G-SYNC compatible) | Asus MG28UQ (4K, 60Hz, FreeSync compatible)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair AX1600i
Mouse Microsoft Intellimouse Pro - Black Shadow
Keyboard Yes
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

FordGT90Concept

"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
26,259 (4.46/day)
Location
IA, USA
System Name BY-2021
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (65w eco profile)
Motherboard MSI B550 Gaming Plus
Cooling Scythe Mugen (rev 5)
Memory 2 x Kingston HyperX DDR4-3200 32 GiB
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
Storage Samsung 980 Pro, Seagate Exos X20 TB 7200 RPM
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG274K (3840x2160@144 DP) + Samsung SyncMaster 906BW (1440x900@60 HDMI-DVI)
Case Coolermaster HAF 932 w/ USB 3.0 5.25" bay + USB 3.2 (A+C) 3.5" bay
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150, Micca OriGen+
Power Supply Enermax Platimax 850w
Mouse Nixeus REVEL-X
Keyboard Tesoro Excalibur
Software Windows 10 Home 64-bit
Benchmark Scores Faster than the tortoise; slower than the hare.
Last edited:
Top