Razer Reinforces Audio Business by Acquiring Majority of THX Assets

[RejZoR]

Oh my god, you're literally still going on about THD, SNR, Hz and dB. Fuckin irrelevant! This is why I know you have no clue what some of us here are talking about. All this fancy audiophile mumojumbo is totally irrelevant when 99% of games use lossy compressed audio. The 3D positioning system (HRTF like), audio reflection and refraction, reverberation and material mapping have NOTHING to do with any of the audiophile nonsense. It's what gives games believable realistic sounding audio, not SNR of 130dB at 3 billion Hz. That large hall sounds like a real large hall, that metallic corridor actually sounds like you're walking through one. That wood actually has a dull thump when it collides with another wood. This is material mapping part. The 3D positioning is how you can locate sounds around you in horizontal and vertical dimension. And added to that, sound tracing. Sound, just like light reflects from objects or gets obstructed and that gives you information where enemies are located. I could play games with my eyes closed in the past, it was that good. That's what gamers should care about, not stupid pointless SNR that everyone is raving about as the best thing after sliced bread. But since everyone lives in the SNR fairytale, no one seems to understand what I'm talking about...

 

[Frick]

Thief 1/2, headphones, dark room, good sound card. I seem to remember Medal of Honor being quite amazing in surround mode as well.

I really should get together an XP machine... I have a few XFi Titaniums lying around...

BTW, I love discussions when both sides are right but they talk about different things.

 

[m1dg3t]

Yes! More lipstick on the pig

ANY form of 'digital' audio is lossy. Sound is analogue by nature.

 

[RejZoR]

When there is enough data, it doesn't even matter what it is. Even a stepped soundwave looks like a curve at high enough resolution. You're charting the mythical audiophile waters again mate

 

[dozenfury]

It's true that the soundcard market died because 95%+ of the market is fine with the quality of onboard sound. It also didn't help that Creative Labs and company was stagnant in r+d for many years and put out poor products that weren't noticeably better than onboard sound. Meanwhile, onboard sound continued to improve. CL got off track with some of their products too like developing features that had no support, or didn't deliver. And they had that X-gamer thing (I forget the name) that was supposed to improve game performance which ended up doing nothing and flopping.

But, I still wish there were a vendor out there developing higher quality sound products for PCs for the niche that can tell the difference. Right now it's either having to go with onboard sound, or go full-bore professional musician level stuff that is insanely expensive (and really designed more for handling high-quality input than output). I guarantee if a vendor came up with a $75-$150 card that truly gave noticeably higher quality than onboard sound to the average user they would sell quite a few of them. Twitch streamers would likely love them, and viewers would snap them up after that. But maybe the technology just isn't there to do that.

 

[AsRock]

Sad day, i like THX and i will never buy a Razer product again unless some magical thing happens and make there products much better.

Shame they did not take over DD as i have always hated it.

Because audio is comprised of floating point decimal calculations which is the GPU's forte. CPUs can do it too but typical CPU throughput is measured in GFLOPS where GPUs are measured in TFLOPs.


Do some research, ALC1150 chips are pretty damn close to Creative in performance at a fraction of the cost and much higher reliability. My speakers have a 115dB SNR and that's what ALC1150 has too.


What I said. HDMI can do at least eight channels losslessly. SPDIF can only do two channels losslessly.

I found many times over the years that SDIF is much fuller sound than HDMI. Although problems have been less noticed with HDMI but the quality just is not there.

 

[bug]

What I said. HDMI can do at least eight channels losslessly. SPDIF can only do two channels losslessly.

I don't think that's true, but I don't have time to dig info up right now.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Oh man the sb pci 512 would take midi sounds from wmp files and make them sound beautiful unlike the ac97 codecs. Now there are no drivers for that card.

There's good software MIDI synthesizers available now but they're kind of a pain to install. I'd argue they're as good as the old hardware MIDI synths.

Oh my god, you're literally still going on about THD, SNR, Hz and dB.

Actually it's very relevant to THX. The whole idea of a good sound system is to be able to put out massive decibels without hearing any noise. Noise ruins everything.

It's what gives games believable realistic sounding audio, not SNR of 130dB at 3 billion Hz.

They both matter. If you have crappy speakers, everything sounds like crap. The game engine is in a far better position to do environmental audio rendering than a sound card anyway because it has all of the data to do it.

I think you should spend some time reading about EAX...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions

...it was literally just effects applied to the DirectSound3D stream. DirectSound3D did all of the computations. DirectSound3D is now depreciated because the bulk of games do it themselves.

Yes! More lipstick on the pig

ANY form of 'digital' audio is lossy. Sound is analogue by nature.

Analog is not sharp though and degrades over space. This is why ATSC has killed NTSC. Why HDMI killed coax. Why DVI/DisplayPort killed VGA.

Technically you are right...it's not the same and some nuances are lost in that process.

It's true that the soundcard market died because 95%+ of the market is fine with the quality of onboard sound. It also didn't help that Creative Labs and company was stagnant in r+d for many years and put out poor products that weren't noticeably better than onboard sound. Meanwhile, onboard sound continued to improve. CL got off track with some of their products too like developing features that had no support, or didn't deliver. And they had that X-gamer thing (I forget the name) that was supposed to improve game performance which ended up doing nothing and flopping.

But, I still wish there were a vendor out there developing higher quality sound products for PCs for the niche that can tell the difference. Right now it's either having to go with onboard sound, or go full-bore professional musician level stuff that is insanely expensive (and really designed more for handling high-quality input than output). I guarantee if a vendor came up with a $75-$150 card that truly gave noticeably higher quality than onboard sound to the average user they would sell quite a few of them. Twitch streamers would likely love them, and viewers would snap them up after that. But maybe the technology just isn't there to do that.

Creative should have competed with Realtek and VIA to get their chips built into motherboards. Too little too late.

I found many times over the years that SDIF is much fuller sound than HDMI. Although problems have been less noticed with HDMI but the quality just is not there.

Using DTS? If yes, you're hearing the DSP (digital signal processor) tamper with the stream. What you're hearing with HDMI is what was actually recorded.

I don't think that's true, but I don't have time to dig info up right now.

"S/PDIF can carry two channels of uncompressed PCM audio or compressed 5.1/7.1 surround sound (such as DTS audio codec); it cannot support lossless formats (such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio) that require greater bandwidth[2] like that available with HDMI or DisplayPort."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
"For digital audio, if an HDMI device has audio, it is required to implement the baseline format: stereo (uncompressed) PCM. Other formats are optional, with HDMI allowing up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio at sample sizes of 16-bit, 20-bit and 24-bit, with sample rates of 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz.[6](§7) HDMI also carries any IEC 61937-compliant compressed audio stream, such as Dolby Digital and DTS, and up to 8 channels of one-bit DSD audio (used on Super Audio CDs) at rates up to four times that of Super Audio CD.[6](§7) With version 1.3, HDMI allows lossless compressed audio streams Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Audio.2Fvideo

The only advantage of S/PDIF is optical which electrically isolates the DAC/amp hardware.

 

[RejZoR]

I know what EAX is thank you very much. I've been using it for 17 years. But you sir need a bit of a reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions

As you can see, EAX 2.0 already has occlusion processing. Meaning, if there was object in between the sound source and you, sounds would sound differently+at different volume level. EAX 3.0 upgraded on that even further to provide reflection and occlusion which actually took into account the size and material of the obstructing object and path the sound reflection around it. Wiki doesn't mention this, but I remember the info from Audigy release back in the day when this was presented as a feature.

As for the raw audio quality, yeah it's nice to have all the fancy numbers, but realistically, 99% of gamers wouldn't notice a difference between sound quality of an ancient AC97 and a top of the line ASUS Essence STX soundcard. How do I know that? Hint, I had one. I also had X-Fi Forte which was another top of the line soundcard. And I've "downgraded" to Sound Blaster Z which is not up to the quality levels of those two and I frankly can't notice any real difference, I've done it out of convenience related to drivers. SB Z despite getting drivers just once a year is absolutely problem free. Btw, I have Altec Lansing MX5021 speakers that are THX certified and can output some serious audio.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

From that same link:

According to Creative's OpenAL 1.1 specification, EAX should be considered deprecated as a developer interface. New development should use OpenAL's EFX interface, which covers all the EAX functionality and is more tightly coupled with the overall OpenAL framework.

EAX is dead, man.

 

[RejZoR]

"EAX is dead man." Maybe you should ask yourself, why is it dead... I know why. Because 99% of people doesn't know how to appreciate good game sound and goes on for hours about stupid pointless SNR that makes absolutely no difference for games. EAX however did to audio what advanced programmable pixel and vertex shaders did to graphics. And here you are, being all joyous about a death of an amazing immersive technology. And I'm the one who doesn't understand things. Please end me now. How would you react if we manage to kill programmable shaders that we have now and graphics today return to a state we had back in year 2000? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be jumping here in joy and defending it like crazy. And yet you're doing just that about the audio. Don't you understand that we've regressed from amazing programmable sound with realistic environmental effects back to generic sounding software crap? Game developers used basic audio manipulation even before EAX existed, like volume levels and applied static reverberations to give sound effect like it's reverberating in a tunnel or sewer, but they had to specifically record that as a separate sound. EAX gave them freedom to apply effects on the fly as a separate layer at any point without re-recording sounds. Which actually sounded good. Unlike this software effects nonsense found in Unreal editor and the likes that's just horrendous.

 

[bug]

"S/PDIF can carry two channels of uncompressed PCM audio or compressed 5.1/7.1 surround sound (such as DTS audio codec); it cannot support lossless formats (such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio) that require greater bandwidth[2] like that available with HDMI or DisplayPort."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

That much I was able to dig up quickly. However, "compressed 5.1/7.1 surround sound" does not automatically mean lossy. Hence my need for additional info when I get some time on my hands.
Either way, it's good enough for me (and I do use the optical connector).

 

[bug]

... 99% of people doesn't know how to appreciate ...

There's no better reason for discontinuing any product.
Off the top of my head, Nvidia killed their SoundStorm for precisely the same reason - people didn't care.

 

[RejZoR]

Just remembered Serious Sam 2 that I was already playing has EAX. Enabled it on Win10 via ALchemy and man, the sound is so much better. Open areas and halls at least sound according to their size again.

People didn't care about awesome environmental sound effects, but they all of sudden care about stupid pointless SNR levels that need to be 120 dB and higher otherwise you're not l33t enough. If it shows anything, it shows that people are stupid.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Because 99% of people doesn't know how to appreciate good game sound and goes on for hours about stupid pointless SNR that makes absolutely no difference for games.

It's dead for the same reason PhysX died. They took hardware, made software for it, tied the two together so one doesn't work with the other, and developers either abandoned it (in the case of EAX) or use it minimally (as is the case with PhysX) to not require the hardware. Creative never offered the latter so the former was the only choice. Creative has no one to blame except Creative. Oh, and they're doing the same damn thing to OpenAL. OpenAL 1.1, which has the features of EAX embedded, is not open licensed--it's proprietary. Maybe it will finally be able to function without a Creative card but the fact it is not open may end up killing it off all over again. Creative (the slimy corp it is), is trying to use the OpenAL name to drum up support.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be jumping here in joy and defending it like crazy.

Actually, I would. I don't use my graphics cards for anything other than video-related tasks. I still find the idea of GPGPU repulsive because the renderer pipeline can get interrupted by unrelated tasks such as physics processing. The renderer is far more important to me in most cases.

Unlike this software effects nonsense found in Unreal editor and the likes that's just horrendous.

Have you even played an Unreal Engine 4 game?

 

[RejZoR]

Yeah, I'm sure you've played all the countless TBA (To Be Announced) games with Unreal 4 engine to tell me how awesome sound they have...

 

[bug]

Just remembered Serious Sam 2 that I was already playing has EAX. Enabled it on Win10 via ALchemy and man, the sound is so much better. Open areas and halls at least sound according to their size again.

People didn't care about awesome environmental sound effects, but they all of sudden care about stupid pointless SNR levels that need to be 120 dB and higher otherwise you're not l33t enough. If it shows anything, it shows that people are stupid.

Well, yes, what did you expect?
To appreciate EAX you had to pay top $ for both the sound card and the speakers. So people just skipped the tech altogether.
But when it comes to dB and bitrates, that's only numbers, anyone can have an opinion and everybody knows larger numbers are better. Make no mistakes, most people talking about dB and what not haven't done much listening. Incidentally, have you noticed that most discussions about sound quality never mention the audio source?
And yes, people are stupid. There's that saying: "Imagine how stupid the average person is. Now imagine half the population is more stupid than that."

 

[Prima.Vera]

Do some research, ALC1150 chips are pretty damn close to Creative in performance at a fraction of the cost and much higher reliability.

Dude, my Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 from 2000 has better sound quality and effects than any Realtek integrated sound cards at date.
Relax. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Most certainly is not. Oh, is not applied in the games anymore, true, but I can still use the 3D effects over the Creative's Console:

 

[Frick]

As for the raw audio quality, yeah it's nice to have all the fancy numbers, but realistically, 99% of gamers wouldn't notice a difference between sound quality of an ancient AC97 and a top of the line ASUS Essence STX soundcard. How do I know that? Hint, I had one. I also had X-Fi Forte which was another top of the line soundcard. And I've "downgraded" to Sound Blaster Z which is not up to the quality levels of those two and I frankly can't notice any real difference, I've done it out of convenience related to drivers. SB Z despite getting drivers just once a year is absolutely problem free. Btw, I have Altec Lansing MX5021 speakers that are THX certified and can output some serious audio.

I assume you're talking about terrible mp3's in games, because in all other cases the difference is monumental between sound cards.

 

[RejZoR]

Well, yes, what did you expect?
To appreciate EAX you had to pay top $ for both the sound card and the speakers. So people just skipped the tech altogether.
But when it comes to dB and bitrates, that's only numbers, anyone can have an opinion and everybody knows larger numbers are better. Make no mistakes, most people talking about dB and what not haven't done much listening. Incidentally, have you noticed that most discussions about sound quality never mention the audio source?
And yes, people are stupid. There's that saying: "Imagine how stupid the average person is. Now imagine half the population is more stupid than that."

That's a load of bull and you know it. People spent 500+ $/€ on graphic cards every year, but that soundcard for 100 $/€ was too much every few years. You never had to buy top of the line model. I currently have the most basic model because I don't need silly volume knob, extension card or array mic. It was 50-100 € cheaper than those. Has slightly lower SNR, but who really cares, it's still 116 dB SNR which is plenty enough even for more enthusiastic use. X-Fi actually had better elevation filtering as well as MacroFX for sounds closer to you than SB Z, but that's kinda trade off for more convenient use without switching modes and with a lot more reliable drivers/software.

@Frick
No it isn't. I could give you FLAC sourced sounds or music and I bet you couldn't tell apart the "quality" consistently between basic HD codecs from few years ago, recent ALC1150 with high end components or ASUS Essence STX. All of course on identical speakers. I've had enough soundcards ranging from budged onboard chips to top of the line enthusiast ones. The so called massive difference just isn't there. And why else would you buy soundcard than for games that use compressed audio anyway? Are you really crazy enough to use PC for audiophile music experience? You know they'll going to lynch you till the end of your days for that...

 

[Frick]

@Frick
No it isn't. I could give you FLAC sourced sounds or music and I bet you couldn't tell apart the "quality" consistently between basic HD codecs from few years ago, recent ALC1150 with high end components or ASUS Essence STX. All of course on identical speakers. I've had enough soundcards ranging from budged onboard chips to top of the line enthusiast ones. The so called massive difference just isn't there. And why else would you buy soundcard than for games that use compressed audio anyway? Are you really crazy enough to use PC for audiophile music experience? You know they'll going to lynch you till the end of your days for that...

Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I had a cheap MSI G41 motherboard (VIA sound I think) and a pair of Logitech Z325's and got a hold of an old SB0460 (which is the X-Fi Platinum sold in Dell machines), and the difference was ... actually mind blowing. And I'm serious about that. I spent some time changing between the onboard sound and the sound card when listening to different things just to make sure I wasn't insane, but everything sounded much better. I know sound is largely subjective, but if you can't hear the difference ... Well, you just don't, and that doesn't matter, but lots of people notice. I even demonstrated for some people and they agreed it sounded better.

They didn't care though. So in a way I think you are right, but for the wrong reasons. People notice, but they might not care. I thought I didn't care, but it turns out I do. I listened to music for what felt like several days straight because every song sounded new. I noticed things I hadn't noticed before. I had the same experience when I got a good sound bar from a friend. The difference was not as profound, but definitely there.

The thing I seriously don't care about is visuals. Wanna have a discussion where I base every single argument on me seriously not noticing any kind of AA in any game except that it lowers the FPS? Because I don't.

 

[bug]

That's a load of bull and you know it. People spent 500+ $/€ on graphic cards every year, but that soundcard for 100 $/€ was too much every few years. bla, bla

Well, the fact EAX is no longer with us is a pretty clear indication of which one of us is talking bull. But if you choose to think it was all a Microsoft conspiracy (to whatever end), so be it.

 

[RejZoR]

Largest part for sure. The other part was closed EAX 3.0+ support. It's why EAX 2.0 worked on crappy AC97 codecs where EAX 3.0 didn't. That is Creative's fault, yes.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Yeah, I'm sure you've played all the countless TBA (To Be Announced) games with Unreal 4 engine to tell me how awesome sound they have...

I've played Stellar Overload which is on Unreal Engine 4. I have zero problems with how it sounds.

Dude, my Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 from 2000 has better sound quality and effects than any Realtek integrated sound cards at date.

Sound quality, AC'97 sure, HD Audio, I doubt it. Effects, I hate them. If they're enabled for whatever reason, I'm instantly pissed off and repulsed.

Most certainly is not. Oh, is not applied in the games anymore, true, but I can still use the 3D effects over the Creative's Console:

Those 3D features you're looking at are pretty standard fare these days (virtual surround in the case of stereo speakers; room correction in the case of 4+ satellites).

I assume you're talking about terrible mp3's in games, because in all other cases the difference is monumental between sound cards.

Very few games use MP3. WWise is probably the most common.

The only game that stands out to me as having terrible quality in music was some of Saints Row II radio stations. They used a sound bank format that was standard to Xbox 360 so it was caused by the input sound files more so than anything else (as in they used something that was very lossy as a source).

Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I had a cheap MSI G41 motherboard (VIA sound I think) and a pair of Logitech Z325's and got a hold of an old SB0460 (which is the X-Fi Platinum sold in Dell machines), and the difference was ... actually mind blowing. And I'm serious about that. I spent some time changing between the onboard sound and the sound card when listening to different things just to make sure I wasn't insane, but everything sounded much better. I know sound is largely subjective, but if you can't hear the difference ... Well, you just don't, and that doesn't matter, but lots of people notice. I even demonstrated for some people and they agreed it sounded better.

Again, likely because of DSP that Creative use by default that weren't being used with onboard. If you take the time to enable similar DSPs with onboard, you can virtually match the effect.

Creative only wins in two definitive areas: SNR levels exceeding those that onboard are rated for and CPU load.

 

[Frick]

Again, likely because of DSP that Creative use by default that weren't being used with onboard. If you take the time to enable similar DSPs with onboard, you can virtually match the effect.

Creative only wins in two definitive areas: SNR levels exceeding those that onboard are rated for and CPU load.

Tell me how and I'll do an honest comparision.