Editorial On Cryptocoins: I think I know why Satoshi Nakamoto Hides

[R-T-B]

Because where there's profit there is greed. There is no profit in BOINC, only hope and that's payment enough for most people. For those that isn't, well, probably better off without them. They can go make a business, buy their own hardware, and sell their computational product (cloud processing).

CPU-coins (Bitcoin included in it's respective era) have never been profitable. The current ones aren't, either. There is a simple reason for this: 1P systems are not cheap, no matter how many cores you cram in them, it reduces everyone to a high investment to "double hashrate" so to speak. You either need another full 1P rig which spreads market demand over several parts, or a 2p righ which will likely cost even more than 2 1P rigs. I went over this in my article. In short, any kind of BOINC based coin would probably not even pay electric. It would just be something, maybe nothing more than a badge of honor with the nice benefit of being a money transport system with cheap fees while we're at it.

Again, what do you see wrong with this?

Are you forgetting Ryzen, ThreadRipper, and EPYC?

Did you seriously just ask me that?

The many-core race is on. Just 11 years ago, dual-cores came of age. Today, you can buy an Xbox 360 with an octo-core.

An Xbox 360 was used to hash bitcoin back in the day. It performed worse than a single core, due to it having insane power draw and a very inefficient atomlike in-order CPU design. And that was bloody BITCOIN. It would be easy to make it harder.

Or a phone.

RISC-shit, same story (tried as well BTW).

Or Ryzen.

Now you're cooking, but it's still limited to a single machine, raising cost investment up front, and lowering profitability overall because you have to recoup a huge investment that you likely NEVER WILL MAKE BACK.

Instead of having a GPU shortage, we'll have a CPU shortage.

No, because most won't bother to build more than one rig, which they'll probably use for their everday activities mostly and not for the theortical coin.

Where the processing occurs really doesn't matter.

No, but the upfront investment does.

I mean, the only way to reasonably restrict processing right now is to make branching logic that runs like shit unless it's on a quantum processor (which there's only like a dozen of those in the world). Oh right, those machines are doing real science...

I'm guessing BOINC is not real science to you now? Why the sarcasm?

...so...you see...cryptocurrency is a solution looking for a problem...that doesn't exist...

Oh boy. Banks and swipe fees are not a problem, or don't exist? I don't know which I disagree with more, frankly...

What's the point of having Bitcoin if governments can use it for power?

Mainly a cheap and efficient payment system. I am neither a Marxist, nor a libertarian. I'm a normie. I'm a guy who is into technology and can see benefits without becoming ideologically attached to them. I'm a boring frog that posts news and sometimes has an opinion. It does not agree with a lot of what you said, sorry.

Now you're not cool anymore, so you've got to move onto something else to satisfy your desire to feel special.

I've never been cool. I'm a fat nerdy guy. I do have a job now though. That's enough.

The simple fact is that cryptocurrency has done plenty of good, but let's pretend it has done nothing but evil.

I think you need to take a breather and reread my entire post. I'm actually a believer in general purpose cryptocurrency.

Ironically, walking this middle-ground has probably made more people hate me than anyone thinking I am "cool."

 

[FordGT90Concept]

CPU-coins (Bitcoin included in it's respective era) have never been profitable. The current ones aren't, either. There is a simple reason for this: 1P systems are not cheap, no matter how many cores you cram in them, it reduces everyone to a high investment to "double hashrate" so to speak. You either need another full 1P rig which spreads market demand over several parts, or a 2p righ which will likely cost even more than 2 1P rigs. I went over this in my article. In short, any kind of BOINC based coin would probably not even pay electric. It would just be something, maybe nothing more than a badge of honor with the nice benefit of being a money transport system with cheap fees while we're at it.

In 2009, when Bitcoin debuted, Core 2 Quad and Core i7 were out. Today, you can get that much performance in an Intel NUC form factor for a fraction of the cost. Shelves of NUCs is entirely feasible when cheap Chinaboxes can be had for less than $100 USD each. On the other end, the farmers may use 4-way 64-core EPYC clusters. Costs thousands up front, sure, but any kind of cryptocurrency is going to eventually reflect the cost to produce it or it will fail as a cryptocurrency.

No, because most won't bother to build more than one rig, which they'll probably use for their everday activities mostly and not for the theortical coin.

Double standard much? If someone doesn't have a problem with plugging 11 GPUs into one computer, they also won't have a problem owning four computers with four CPUs each. To the greedy, the end justifies the means.

I'm guessing BOINC is not real science to you now?

You don't spend millions on a specialized processor (talking D-Wave) just to process cryptographic hashes all day long.

BOINC is all about science. Berkley won't let non-scientific projects on the network.

Banks and swipe fees are not a problem, or don't exist?

Visa/MasterCard fees cost less than paying employees to process transactions themselves. It definitely means fewer accountants when Visa/MasterCard can give you a statement of transactions.

 

[hat]

I've seen a lot of bitching about mining lately (and no, nut just in this thread). We miners are using all the jiggawatts and wrenching video cards out of the hands of gamers so we can generate toy money. Well, to that I say: there are two sides to every story, folks. Consider somebody like me. Struggle is nothing new to me and I see mining as an opportunity to earn some money for me and my family so our financial situation improves. I still haven't received my order (in fact it hasn't even shipped out yet), which I placed back on June 19th, so video card shortages affect me, too. I still haven't received my chance to start recouping my admittedly risky investment, let alone earning money beyond that. What I don't need is a bunch of people riding by on their high horses pointing their finger at people like me, telling me I'm responsible for destroying the planet and stopping them from playing video games, when in reality I'm just another struggling little guy trying to get a leg up.

 

[R-T-B]

In 2009, when Bitcoin debuted, Core 2 Quad and Core i7 were out. Today, you can get that much performance in an Intel NUC form factor for a fraction of the cost. Shelves of NUCs is entirely feasible when cheap Chinaboxes can be had for less than $100 USD each. On the other end, the farmers may use 4-way 64-core EPYC clusters. Costs thousands up front, sure, but any kind of cryptocurrency is going to eventually reflect the cost to produce it or it will fail as a cryptocurrency.


Double standard much? If someone doesn't have a problem with plugging 11 GPUs into one computer, they also won't have a problem owning four computers with four CPUs each. To the greedy, the end justifies the means.

You got me with the NUC arguement. I was completely thinking within the context of standard, ATX systems. NUCs are cheapo, stackable prebuilts and yes the greedy would abuse the shit out of them.

I guess you could add a restrictive memory limit, but then only the elite can really "play."

I don't know the answer, honestly. Maybe banks do need to take control of a blockchain, I don't know. My main point in writing this was to show early bitcoin pioneers were trying to bring the world something beneficial for all. For many of us, we are very sad as to what has become of it.

I do not believe bitcoin is a solution to a non-existent problem though. I believe it is the sum of many very legitimate frustrations with the status-quo.

 

[R-T-B]

I've seen a lot of bitching about mining lately (and no, nut just in this thread). We miners are using all the jiggawatts and wrenching video cards out of the hands of gamers so we can generate toy money. Well, to that I say: there are two sides to every story, folks. Consider somebody like me. Struggle is nothing new to me and I see mining as an opportunity to earn some money for me and my family so our financial situation improves. I still haven't received my order (in fact it hasn't even shipped out yet), which I placed back on June 19th, so video card shortages affect me, too. I still haven't received my chance to start recouping my admittedly risky investment, let alone earning money beyond that. What I don't need is a bunch of people riding by on their high horses pointing their finger at people like me, telling me I'm responsible for destroying the planet and stopping them from playing video games, when in reality I'm just another struggling little guy trying to get a leg up.

I was the same way man. I do not blame you but given your situation, I only advise you to tread carefully and not invest anything you can't afford to lose.

That does not make the basic system any less flawed or sick. Still, best of luck.

 

[hat]

I was under the impression that the basic idea was to create a currency that wasn't under the control of any huge entity (banks and governments).

 

[R-T-B]

I was under the impression that the basic idea was to create a currency that wasn't under the control of any huge entity (banks and governments).

It was yes. I guess the question is whether that and market stability are compatible. Which do we value more? I'm not sure I can safely say "freedom" with a straight face.

The low fees and blockchain tech can be salvaged though.

 

[hat]

I was the same way man. I do not blame you but given your situation, I only advise you to tread carefully and not invest anything you can't afford to lose.

That does not make the basic system any less flawed or sick. Still, best of luck.

It was yes. I guess the question is whether that and stability are compatible. Which do we value more?

I appreciate you not being judgmental here. I understand the risk, but that's the risk I was willing to take by diving in to the mining craze.

I'm not sure what you mean by stability? Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have gone through many changes. Their value is directly affected by the decisions powerful people and corporations make, as is any currency. Cryptocurrencies, however, are also directly affected by changes in technology. Because cryptocurrencies are not controlled by a central bank or government, everybody interested has an opportunity to get their own figurative printing press (mining hardware). When everybody has printing presses, difficulty goes up, meaning the printing press now produces less, because if it didn't, the currency would be too easy to get, everybody would have too much and the value would go down. And then a better printing press comes along, allowing you to earn more again, but when too many people get that printing press, difficulty goes up again, because if not, we face the same problem as we did with the first printing press. And the cycle continues. Difficulty goes up and up as mining hardware gets better and better. People keep mentioning greed... does anyone seriously expect somebody not to capitalize on the chance to earn more if they could? I know if I find myself with a pile of mining profits, I'm going after more! Maybe I'll find myself in a situation someday where I can pay off my debts, and afford a decent house and a newer, more reliable vehicle thanks to mining cryptocurrencies. And when I buy that house, guess what I'm gonna put in the basement...?

Anyway, that kinda goes off the point. I'm not sure what Bitcoin et al. intended to achieve in the end game, but as far as I can tell, most people who use cryptocurrencies eventually end up handing them off for X amount of their local flavor of currency which is regulated by their local huge central agency.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

so i folded and crunched my way through 7 years or more of variouse research and 3-4 pcs and plenty of power and Now im a shit , g dammit.

 

[R-T-B]

so i folded and crunched my way through 7 years or more of variouse research and 3-4 pcs and plenty of power and Now im a shit , g dammit.

lol, I can respect honesty.

 

[neko77025]

So .. you make A untraceable currency and dont think it will be used for BAD stuff ? .


having to be fucking joking ...

 

[R-T-B]

So .. you make A untraceable currency and dont think it will be used for BAD stuff ? .


having to be fucking joking ...

Not untracable, anonymous. Big difference.

And yeah, naivety like that permeates the Bitcoin founding fathers.

 

[cdawall]

So .. you make A untraceable currency and dont think it will be used for BAD stuff ? .


having to be fucking joking ...

Bitcoin is 100% traced. You can see each and every transaction tied to an account.

 

[Basard]

There are a few here making money right now.

Who, where, and how much? Honestly....?

virgin daughters,

I'll pump out a few of them for ONE BITCOIN.... LOL....

 

[metalslaw]

What would be great is mixing crunching and a new coin. Then there is a positive affect from the mining, instead of just energy expenditure.

A lot of purist crunchers wouldn't like this idea. But ask yourself, if it was done, would there be _alot_ more science crunching going on? Wouldn't that a great thing

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Let's compare fiat currency versus Bitcoin right now:
-Governments depend on stable currency so governments manipulate the currency to keep swings small.
-Bitcoin is worth so much right now that access is limited.
-A government, in Bitcoin's situation, would increase the amount of money in circulation to devalue it. It would do this by investing in its own economy (e.g. infrastructure projects).
-When I say "money," I don't mean cloth dollar bills. Those are created and destroyed by a specific institution based on demand for said cloth dollar bills. Fiat currencies can exist in an entirely digital format just like cryptocurrencies can.
-Bitcoin has no physical economy (innate value with constraints), has no effective means to increase/decrease supply/demand in response to conditions, and has no authoritative body to enforce stability.

Decentralized stability isn't plausible. Hell, centralized stability is a struggle.

But ask yourself, if it was done, would there be _alot_ more science crunching going on? Wouldn't that a great thing

No, a lot more energy would be wasted on cryptography and less on science. BOINC, F@H, etc. are all about donating time and kwh to science. The only way an incentive system would work is if it's monetized in an existing currency: submit a project to the network and you have to pay the network to get accepted then the network pays contributors a share of that money for valid results. Problem with that is if they were interested in paying in the first place, they'd just rent a super computer. Cryptocurrencies can only substitute for an actual currency. If you remove the investment on the front end constraining the system, then chaos is inevitable. The outputs can never be allowed to exceed the inputs.

 

[R-T-B]

Who, where, and how much? Honestly....?

@yotano211 and @cdawall are doing well.

 

[cdawall]

@yotano211 and @cdawall are doing well.

Yotano better than myself, but I am making enough to call it a second income and continue expanding

 

[R-T-B]

Yotano better than myself, but I am making enough to call it a second income and continue expanding

Yotano seems to be the king of cryptoearnings here, yeah. Don't worry though, you're on the podium.

 

[Basard]

What would be great is mixing crunching and a new coin. Then there is a positive affect from the mining, instead of just energy expenditure.

A lot of purist crunchers wouldn't like this idea. But ask yourself, if it was done, would there be _alot_ more science crunching going on? Wouldn't that a great thing

Maybe that's how they'll tax us in the future.........

 

[cdawall]

Yotano seems to be the king of cryptoearnings here, yeah. Don't worry though, you're on the podium.

lol I am doing better selling amd cards than mining.

 

[yotano211]

Yotano seems to be the king of cryptoearnings here, yeah. Don't worry though, you're on the podium.

I have lots of mining rigs because I got in early enough to buy enough AMD cards, and when I saw that AMD cards where selling out I started to buy Nvidia cards. I got lucky and bought some from a Micocenter in Dallas at the right time, right before they started their policy of limiting gpu sales to 2 per person.
At this point even I'm starting to get out. There seems to be lots of selling right and I want to get out on the high instead at the bottom. I wanted to replace all of my AMD cards with Nvidia but I decided against that, I stopped buying gpu's all together. I just sold my only rx580 8gb rig for a little over double of what I paid for it. I don't even want to type what the hell I was thinking when this buyer was paying so much for a mining rig that's used for over 4 months at full throttle, that was yesterday and I'm still in shock that I haven't even deposited the cash yet.

I had 21 1070s, that are paid for, on reverse but I canceled that order. I still have 19 rx570s that arent paid for it that I will continue to wait for. I can maybe resell it for a nice profit if I can get it in time. At this time, I am down to 19 mining rigs going at 2.2gh/s. On Sunday I'll put 2 or 3 on ebay and wait for it to sell. I want to sell everything, take the profits from all of that and pay off the entire amount of student loans I have left.

I'll still have mining rigs going. I just want 3-5 rigs with 8 1050ti running making just enough to pay the rent, child support, and food for the month. Taking care of 20 mining rigs spread out over 3 houses and 2 states IS A FULLTIME JOB!!. Some days when a rig does down I have to figure out why it went down, maybe the psu overheated or maybe the overclock was too high or maybe I forgot to turn off the stupid windows 10 update. Last week, some risers at my friends house in another state went bad, I shipped him some new one. They dont have warranty so the cost comes out of pocket for those. This week, 4 1060 3gb cards failed on me, I think I overclocked the memory too far. They have warranty so the cost will only be shipping cost to the manufacture.

But all of this comes at a too high cost for me, I have neglected my ebay business to the point that my sales have gone down by about 20% and just last week I forget to pay one of my suppliers. They sent me a nice 3% payment overdue bill. So time to bail out when the good is good enough.

 

[Aenra]

Am too old for this, lol.. work = work. Real.
Pixels = pixels. Not real.

The End. Or so it should have been anyway

As to the philosophising, well. As someone else mentioned, grow up (and my apologies for the offense, but really, no other way round it).
We are not equal, nor were we meant to be. We are as such under no obligation to treat each other AS equal, or expect to be treated as such. Biology knows nor allows any equality. That's how this ecosystem survives, for millennia now. Somehow we decided to throw it all out the window and say black=white, strong=weak, poor=rich, pretty or ugly, thin or fat, whatever, all equal.
Wake up.

There will always be disparity, difference. There will always as such be strife. And there will always as such be people that have succeeded, risen from it, or have failed and stand inferior.
To coin a term such as "greed" and attempt (as is the custom of nu-millennials and liberals) to equate everything and/or demonize dissent.. and how do we equate everything? By downsizing.. it's just juvenile.

"Are you telling me we're all juvenile when it's just you being a racist?"
Leave your city. Have a good look around. See for yourself how and why it all still stands. Then if willing, go back to your bubble and believe whatever, just careful with the preaching

We are not equal, now shall we ever become. It stands to reason people will covet, people will strive, people will utlimately succeed where others have failed. Succeed because they were b-e-t-t-e-r. Not equal.
Don't focus on the mechanism ("greed"). Focus on what it allows for. Results. It's in our nature.

(as always, just my opinion)

 

[Joss]

@R-T-B

I'll pass on your sickening Marxist positioning and the obvious contradictions on your text; let me just forward some bad news:
your knowledge of the monetary and financial system is null, and digital currency can only be understood in this context. When you're familiar with concepts like the Gold Standard, money as a commodity, Fiat money, fractional reserve banking, money supply... then we can have a chat.
As to the power consumption and the safe of the planet ....

 

[Vayra86]

Excuse me sir RTB

But... we didn't see it coming??? Are you mental? 'When I started mining the impact wasn't quite clear'... well you lack some serious insight in anything outside of your own attic then. There's a whole world out there you know? I'm sorry to be so harsh, but that sentence right there disqualified any faith I still have in anything else you wrote. It contains so much naive, I can't even get to grips with it. And you came to terms with yourself and became 'level headed' after a few Bitcoin value ups and downs. Wow... just wow.

The only good thing about Bitcoin is the blockchain tech and that is something we will keep seeing in the future and is a great tool to have especially in a world where digital security matters.

The cryptocurrency by definition and by the way it is mined, should die off really quickly, but validation through blockchain is something that will essentially save us loads of effort and in turn, energy compared to the current way we handle transactions.

Bitcoin was never about power to the people or removing the fat banks and decentralizing control. If you believe this, go eat your tin foil hat. Already the blockchain is being monetized and analyzed by banks worldwide. They will make it theirs, and that's all she wrote.

Oh and this bullshit about proof of work... you're not working, you're just using shitloads of energy to let a machine do processing. The work you do, is paying your energy bill and pressing the on button. Its one of those things that people who sit behind a computer love to think of as work, and it has become some weird form of self fulfilling prophecy for them. Get a life... before that bubble bursts and you'll be back to zero. And about BOINC and putting it towards science - sure, that's all fine, as long as you don't monetize it. Its just like so many other things people just 'like to do' because of emotional reasons - they work as such, and die off once you monetize it.