AMD Says Vega Delays Necessary to Increase Stock for Gamers

[silentbogo]

In the video, he speaks about TGP instead of TDP. What is the difference between the 2? Because he mentions about 50W lower numbers for the Vega56 and Vega64 air.

TGP is "Total GPU Power draw", e.g. combined maximum it pulls from PSU and PCIe slot.
TDP is the maximum generated heat output.
TDP should be lower than TGP, and not vice versa (science!).

For some reason people always confuse these two.

 

[ntk95]

30-33 MH/s with $499 RX Vega 64 Cards, I can't belive gamers can buy RX Vega easily....

 

[Airbrushkid]

There high wattage may keep miners from wanting them. Miners don't want to lose money because power cost. The average miner will use 1050 ti, 1060 3gb an 1060 6gb, 1070's. 1080's and 1080 ti's use to much power.

 

[acperience7]

As long as I can get a card when it comes out without an inflated price like the 580/480 in recent times I can wait little while longer. It’s already been an eternity anyway…

 

[rtwjunkie]

As long as I can get a card when it comes out without an inflated price like the 580/480 in recent times I can wait little while longer. It’s already been an eternity anyway…

The 480 was very cheap. And 580 after that, selling for just a slight increase. Or are you talking about the mining demands raising the prices in the last couple months?

 

[jabbadap]

TGP is "Total GPU Power draw", e.g. combined maximum it pulls from PSU and PCIe slot.
TDP is the maximum generated heat output.
TDP should be lower than TGP, and not vice versa (science!).

For some reason people always confuse these two.

Uhm TDP should be cooler design power limit(thermal design power). AMD uses TBP aka Total Board Power and TGP Total Graphics Power. TBP is whole card with inefficiencies so the power which it pulls from psu and which are measurable. TGP is the power which memory and gpu takes and you can't really measure it.

 

[acperience7]

The 480 was very cheap. And 580 after that, selling for just a slight increase. Or are you talking about the mining demands raising the prices in the last couple months?

Yeah, I should have specified; I meant the recent inflation and shortages caused by miners. As you said the pricing for the cards (MSRP) was good.

 

[silentbogo]

Uhm TDP should be cooler design power limit(thermal design power).

That's exactly what I said.

AMD uses TBP aka Total Board Power and TGP Total Graphics Power. TBP is whole card with inefficiencies so the power which it pulls from psu and which are measurable. TGP is the power which memory and gpu takes and you can't really measure it.

Haven't heard of TBP being used in this context. I always thought TBP is Typical Board Power, e.g. the number that AMD/Nvidia/Intel wants you to believe their part normally consumes.
E.g. reference RX480 is 150W TBP, but under stress uses 165W+, and so on.

TGP should already include things like losses in VRMs etc., because it reflects the entire graphics subsystem (at least that's what I get from vague descriptions on AMD and NVidia websites). Maybe they do not count 5-7W from fans, and LEDs, but other than that everything should be accounted for.

 

[semitope]

Lol. It's only a week after Lisa Su said "we didn't have cryptocurrency in our forecast, and we're not looking at it as a long-term growth driver".

At $399 starting price I doubt miners will jump the Vega bandwagon right away (especially if current "leaked" benchmarks and power consumption are taken into consideration).
Even if you give Vega56 a generous 30-32MH/s, and you put together 5 of them, it will take you more than 8 month to get your money back just for cards, not including an additional investment into a 1500W PSU and a freezer cabinet, since even RX480 farm does not require that much upkeep.
I'm still not mining... just saying...

I think they are full of $h1t and simply can't satisfy stock even for enthusiast market. Even less so for mainstream PC gamers. Not sure whether it's because of HBM2 shortage, or because AMD started the hype way too early, but in either case mining scare has nothing to do with delays.

vega 56 is just 220W tdp (165W for GPU+HBM2, rest for pcb compnents). with a ton of tflops. and apparently vega has instructions for mining. It could end up a must have for miners once the software is fixed for it (if possible).

That's exactly what I said.


Haven't heard of TBP being used in this context. I always thought TBP is Typical Board Power, e.g. the number that AMD/Nvidia/Intel wants you to believe their part normally consumes.
E.g. reference RX480 is 150W TBP, but under stress uses 165W+, and so on.

TGP should already include things like losses in VRMs etc., because it reflects the entire graphics subsystem (at least that's what I get from vague descriptions on AMD and NVidia websites). Maybe they do not count 5-7W from fans, and LEDs, but other than that everything should be accounted for.

tgp doesnt include that. What else would be causing the increase from TGP to TDP if not all the components on the PCB. The reason its so high is likely over-engineering on the reference boards by AMD. tons of phases etc. I'm guessing TGP is a term that came about because of the interposer HBM setup. That is treated as a single unit. before it would just be GPU in that package.

So vega 56 at 165W TGP actually means the GPU itself is even lower. not bad as far as architecture efficiency, but can't ignore the HBM and board components that are necessary.

 

[bug]

They prepared this launch so carefully they didn't even manage to draw the Lyra constellation right in that second picture. They just went with a bunch of lines and dots. So yeah, I'll trust the rest of the marketing surrounding Vega is spot on

 

[trparky]

Are there any benchmarks yet?

 

[bug]

Are there any benchmarks yet?

Is there a point to your question? These SKUs are still under NDA, all we have is Vega FE benchmarks so far.

 

[EarthDog]

Is there a point to your question? These SKUs are still under NDA, all we have is Vega FE benchmarks so far.

Be nice...

The only thing we have is some 3dmark stuff....if it is even legit (bug's point through the snark) and amds subjective testing in doom with freesync/gsync fps limited (also useless).

 

[coolernoob]

Lol. It's only a week after Lisa Su said "we didn't have cryptocurrency in our forecast, and we're not looking at it as a long-term growth driver".

At $399 starting price I doubt miners will jump the Vega bandwagon right away (especially if current "leaked" benchmarks and power consumption are taken into consideration).
Even if you give Vega56 a generous 30-32MH/s, and you put together 5 of them, it will take you more than 8 month to get your money back just for cards, not including an additional investment into a 1500W PSU and a freezer cabinet, since even RX480 farm does not require that much upkeep.
I'm still not mining... just saying...

I think they are full of $h1t and simply can't satisfy stock even for enthusiast market. Even less so for mainstream PC gamers. Not sure whether it's because of HBM2 shortage, or because AMD started the hype way too early, but in either case mining scare has nothing to do with delays.

miners are buying rx 580 for 500$+ (now at 450$ sold listings at ebay - used or new does not matter), so if Vega will be on par with RX 580 - it will be sold out at day one even at 500$

 

[jabbadap]

That's exactly what I said.


Haven't heard of TBP being used in this context. I always thought TBP is Typical Board Power, e.g. the number that AMD/Nvidia/Intel wants you to believe their part normally consumes.
E.g. reference RX480 is 150W TBP, but under stress uses 165W+, and so on.

TGP should already include things like losses in VRMs etc., because it reflects the entire graphics subsystem (at least that's what I get from vague descriptions on AMD and NVidia websites). Maybe they do not count 5-7W from fans, and LEDs, but other than that everything should be accounted for.

Oh heck. Yes you are right, it's typical board not total board, my bad.

Be nice...

The only thing we have is some 3dmark stuff....if it is even legit (bug's point through the snark) and amds subjective testing in doom with freesync/gsync fps limited (also useless).

Well they did give RX VEGA 64 Doom performance numbers for 3440x1440 here:

Spoiler: Screenie

 

[silentbogo]

Oh heck. Yes you are right, it's typical board not total board, my bad.

Not your bad. We have NVidia and AMD to blame

 

[Vayra86]

That's exactly what I said.


Haven't heard of TBP being used in this context. I always thought TBP is Typical Board Power, e.g. the number that AMD/Nvidia/Intel wants you to believe their part normally consumes.
E.g. reference RX480 is 150W TBP, but under stress uses 165W+, and so on.

TGP should already include things like losses in VRMs etc., because it reflects the entire graphics subsystem (at least that's what I get from vague descriptions on AMD and NVidia websites). Maybe they do not count 5-7W from fans, and LEDs, but other than that everything should be accounted for.

Let's just drop all the lingo and call it out for what it is because TBP/TGP/TDP don't serve ANY purpose whatsoever, because the cooling solutions are already pre-installed on these products.

The only reason we're now discussing this is because AMD has done a feeble attempt at hiding 345W TDP a little bit behind some silly terminology. The bottom line is you pick the high number and scale your case cooling on that if you're wise, so practically, that's all that really matters here. And also in any comparison you'd pick the total typical power draw. I really could give a rat's ass what every little component on the board pulls.

 

[bug]

Be nice...

The only thing we have is some 3dmark stuff....if it is even legit (bug's point through the snark) and amds subjective testing in doom with freesync/gsync fps limited (also useless).

I only meant that whatever we know is out in the open. Hence the question did make sense to me.

 

[Sir Alex Ice]

Some distris actually do care about gamers, because of reasons like:
- miners buy in bulk and want cheaper price for qty, meaning less profit
- miners will break the cards and return them when the currency crashes
- gamers will buy 1 card at higher price with more profit and less return chance

 

[Vayra86]

Some distris actually do care about gamers, because of reasons like:
- miners buy in bulk and want cheaper price for qty, meaning less profit
- miners will break the cards and return them when the currency crashes
- gamers will buy 1 card at higher price with more profit and less return chance

And market saturation is a big issue too. High peaks of demand are hard to produce against, and at the same time these miners will sell the cards cheap when they're done mining, so basically they're overtaking the vendors for a good while. You saw this a lot when all those 280x's and 290s flooded the second hand market. By the time they sell the cards, they were relegated to mid range equivalents which is where the real sales numbers are.

 

[John Pombrio]

With this huge power draw? No way is this going to sell to miners.

 

[jabbadap]

Hmh aint ethereum use memory bandwidth more than anything else from gpu? So underclock&undervolt core and oc memory, which is what miners are already doing with any graphics card.

 

[trparky]

I didn't know that these were still under NDA. I thought that they were in the hands of tech reviewers.

 

[EarthDog]

Its still more...seemingly a lot more, which is the point. You can undervolt the other teams cards too.

 

[bug]

Hmh aint ethereum use memory bandwidth more than anything else from gpu? So underclock&undervolt core and oc memory, which is what miners are already doing with any graphics card.

If that was the case, Fury has more memory bandwidth