AMD RX Vega Supply Issues to Persist At Least Until October - Digitimes

[iO]

... to anticipate the same with HBM2 and build a GPU with a memory controller that could handle multiple memory types. That AMD chose not to do so is entirely their fault and represents an absolute failure in terms of risk-mitigation.

Not even Nvidia with their massively bigger R&D budget managed to do this and chose to build the same GPU twice with two different memory controllers.

And I really doubt adding another ~50W+ for GDDR5 memory and its subsystem plus another potential bottleneck by reducing the memory bandwidth would actually help the card...

 

[arbiter]

Not even Nvidia with their massively bigger R&D budget managed to do this and chose to build the same GPU twice with two different memory controllers.

And I really doubt adding another ~50W+ for GDDR5 memory and its subsystem plus another potential bottleneck by reducing the memory bandwidth would actually help the card...

the die space needed to hold the memory controller is big as it is, let alone making it even bigger to support 2 diff memory option's that are massively different in terms of connection's needed to go from 256/384 to 2048. Its possible but space needed isn't worth it.

 

[HD64G]

As I stated in my previous reply, AMD already had problems with HBM supply with Fiji, so it would have been prudent (I would argue, necessary) for them to anticipate the same with HBM2 and build a GPU with a memory controller that could handle multiple memory types. That AMD chose not to do so is entirely their fault and represents an absolute failure in terms of risk-mitigation.

There's a difference between "acceptable" and "terrible". Since Hawaii, NVIDIA's reference coolers have always fallen into the first group, while AMD's have always fallen into the second. AMD's failure to improve their reference cooler - over multiple GPU generations - is, again, entirely their own fault.

Fanboys making endless excuses for AMD isn't going to make AMD fix its s**t. Negative publicity and voting with your wallets will. No company should get a free pass on repeated failures, regardless of how small and underdog-y it is.

The team of companies behind HBM and HMB2 has many and good companies in it. AMD is one of them to use the end product in its own products. I bet that never a company knows the future of a collaboration until the result becomes obvious. And most times than not, a 2nd gen product is better and easier to be produced than the 1st one. But they seem to need a prophet to predict and avoid such problems eh?

I do not remember you bashing the reference coolers of nVidia GPUs not allowing max boost clocks because of awful temps me thinks, or for being more audible than the optimum. Bashing AMD for anything on the other side is your 2nd nature.

And to make it clear, my opinion is that Vega 64 isn't a good choice for now, but vega 56 is a great choice for anyone not having a 4K or 144Hz monitor that needs a 1080Ti only for being somewhat futureproof (2-3 years max). Custom models and further driver progress might change that drastically though.

 

[r9]

I'm upset with both AMD and Nvidia.
With AMD cuz they dropped the ball with Vega, but at least I know they are doing their best.
On the other hand what upsets me with Nvidia is you can always expect them to do their bare minimum.

 

[Fouquin]

First they said they were delaying launch to make sure there are no issues with supply, and the delay was almost A YEAR. This is after there were several press releases about HBM-caused delays. Then, when supplies ran out on day one, their eventual answer was "we SHIPPED tens of thousands of cards, and 'logistical problems' kept them from reaching distributors (logistical problems involves physically being unable to get to their destination - were the damn trucks hijacked?

Without the shipping manifests and receipts going public, there is no way to know. Shipping large volumes of units has always been a point of contention in the industry, I don't see any lies here.

Then all the crap with prices started - bundles, "launch" prices, rebates to retailers for launch only, SEP double-talk vs MSRP. Strange, isn't it, that all these bundles are trying to sell Ryzen CPUs and boards - is there a problem with Ryzen sales? Normally hardware sold in bundles is over-stocked last generation stuff, trying to get rid of them before they're stuck with a loss. So another lie was, "the bundle strategy is designed to thwart miners". Funny how these dozens of bundles all have Vega cards available, but there's no cards available alone.

Bundles were announced before launch, so I don't see why this could be a lie on anyone's part. It's well documented and we all knew it was happening, which it did. The fact that Vega is bundled with Ryzen actually shows the opposite of what you're speculating. Ryzen is an extremely strong product for AMD and *should* (note: guessing) give a value proposition to somebody who would have already been considering a Ryzen based PC and possibly Vega. It bolsters the value by adding a product that AMD knows people are buying, and one that they want people to buy.

Then, just yesterday, "we've worked out the "logistics issues", and all stores will be fully stocked THIS WEEK". Now today they say supplies won't normalize until October.

AMD's internal reports and the reports of "sources from the upstream supply chain" are going to vary wildly. Somebody has to provide an answer to consumer questions, and the ones that jump first usually aren't giving complete and correct information. Now that doesn't mean they are lying, it means they have information on the situation that they believe to be true and decide to share it, whether it is true and complete information or not. From reading the one-paragraph "article" above it seems that somebody with a distributor or logistics company decided to be the one to answer the question. Usually when AMD answers you get the name of the person and their position at AMD, not a half sentence quote from an anonymous source.

So which is the real story? It doesn't even matter, because only one story can be the real story, and by definition, the other contradictory stories HAVE to be lies. Take your pick, but I am fairly sure that NONE are the real story, and ALL are lies. It's a high-stakes game they're playing, and people who believe them do so because they desperately refuse to hear anything negative about AMD. I think it will explode in their face very soon.

The real story is speculation at best from us, and because of that you don't get a real story. Lots of subjective information based on objective anecdotes from news articles and anonymous sources. You're free to believe that everyone involved is lying to consumers and pulling some back-alley sleight-of-hand to fuck over the common man, but when reality sets in and answers are provided I'm going to bet that the whole situation is significantly more mundane than you're making it out to be.

 

[Th3pwn3r]

That's all well and good but I have yet to actually see anything beyond speculation that AMD has in fact lied about anything. Lots of crying and moaning from the *PC Gamers* and very little proof.

What is it when you say something that's completely untrue? A lie.

First they said they were delaying launch to make sure there are no issues with supply, and the delay was almost A YEAR. This is after there were several press releases about HBM-caused delays. Then, when supplies ran out on day one, their eventual answer was "we SHIPPED tens of thousands of cards, and 'logistical problems' kept them from reaching distributors (logistical problems involves physically being unable to get to their destination - were the damn trucks hijacked? I don't recall any blizzards, floods, or hurricanes that week). Then all the crap with prices started - bundles, "launch" prices, rebates to retailers for launch only, SEP double-talk vs MSRP. Strange, isn't it, that all these bundles are trying to sell Ryzen CPUs and boards - is there a problem with Ryzen sales? Normally hardware sold in bundles is over-stocked last generation stuff, trying to get rid of them before they're stuck with a loss. So another lie was, "the bundle strategy is designed to thwart miners". Funny how these dozens of bundles all have Vega cards available, but there's no cards available alone. Then, just yesterday, "we've worked out the "logistics issues", and all stores will be fully stocked THIS WEEK". Now today they say supplies won't normalize until October. So which is the real story? It doesn't even matter, because only one story can be the real story, and by definition, the other contradictory stories HAVE to be lies. Take your pick, but I am fairly sure that NONE are the real story, and ALL are lies. It's a high-stakes game they're playing, and people who believe them do so because they desperately refuse to hear anything negative about AMD. I think it will explode in their face very soon.

You said it a lot better than I would have, I'm in total agreement. To remind people AMD delayed Vega to make sure they would have enough product on hand/in stock to meet demand.

It doesn't matter how logically you try to put it, your argument is always ignored and a sly, troll comment is put in to attack you.
Let people believe what they want and see what happens. I'm damn happy I didn't wait.

There's definitely some weird people out there. Instead of just accepting facts as they are they want to live in denial. No matter what excuses or reasons are out there, Vega upon launch was awful and that's being nice. Things seem to look better on a day by day basis, like I've been saying Vega 56 actually looks good, especially when next to 64

I'm upset with both AMD and Nvidia.
With AMD cuz they dropped the ball with Vega, but at least I know they are doing their best.
On the other hand what upsets me with Nvidia is you can always expect them to do their bare minimum.

LOL if this is AMDs best they are in some serious trouble. Who in their right mind conjures up something like this? Nvidia never had to even make a 1080ti, the 1080 itself has been able to and will continue to fend for itself against everything AMD has despite being ancient technology in my technological terms.

 

[notb]

The fact that we're getting "unofficial" info about supply problems doesn't mean there actually are any...

It would not be the first time when company announces shortages, when they actually want to get the price up a bit (or have an excuse for not selling a bad product).
Especially now with the mining issue in the background... it's pretty sure a news like this will encourage people to get a Vega while the "still" can.

Also, keep in mind an unknown number of Vega FE is gathering dust in AMD's warehouses. Wouldn't they want to sell those first? It's the same card underneath... think about the profit margin difference...

 

[Fouquin]

What is it when you say something that's completely untrue? A lie.

What is it when you say something that is untrue but have been assured with complete sincerity that it is the truth? Misinformation. See there can be a grey area, it's not all black or white despite what everyone seems to think.

 

[Th3pwn3r]

The fact that we're getting "unofficial" info about supply problems doesn't mean there actually are any...
.

I'm pretty sure the supply problems are real when the product is sold out and there are consumers trying to buy it.

What is it when you say something that is untrue but have been assured with complete sincerity that it is the truth? Misinformation. See there can be a grey area, it's not all black or white despite what everyone seems to think.

Okay, so misinformation from AMD is a gray area but not a lie to consumers? You seem like you could be AMD's terrible lawyer lol. Ever watch Arrested Development? You remind me of the Bluth's lawyer

 

[Fouquin]

Okay, so misinformation from AMD is a gray area but not a lie to consumers? You seem like you could be AMD's terrible lawyer lol. Ever watch Arrested Development? You remind me of the Bluth's lawyer

Well now hang on, where in any of this thread was there official information from AMD? All I've seen is speculation surrounding previous statements on unrelated facets of Vega's supply problems. Do you have links with evidence of actual lies? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Norton]

Keep to the topic- personal attacks won't be tolerated (subtle, indirect, veiled, etc.. included). Only public warning- infractions to follow beyond this point!

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/forum-guidelines.197329/

 

[Th3pwn3r]

Well now hang on, where in any of this thread was there official information from AMD? All I've seen is speculation surrounding previous statements on unrelated facets of Vega's supply problems. Do you have links with evidence of actual lies? I'm genuinely curious.

“Radeon RX Vega64 demand continues to exceed expectations. AMD is working closely with its partners to address this demand. Our initial launch quantities included standalone Radeon RX Vega64 at SEP of $499, Radeon RX Vega64 Black Packs at SEP of $599, and Radeon RX Vega64 Aqua Packs at SEP of $699. We are working with our partners to restock all SKUs of Radeon RX Vega64 including the standalone cards and Gamer Packs over the next few weeks, and you should expect quantities of Vega to start arriving in the coming days.”

This in conjunction with the cards being out of stock in a lot of places is more than enough to realize there's a supply problem. If there wasn't a supply problem there would be no statement.

EDIT:Vega came so late to meet supply demands which they are clearly not coming close to doing considering how everything was out of stock on day zero.

 

[Fouquin]

“Radeon RX Vega64 demand continues to exceed expectations. AMD is working closely with its partners to address this demand. Our initial launch quantities included standalone Radeon RX Vega64 at SEP of $499, Radeon RX Vega64 Black Packs at SEP of $599, and Radeon RX Vega64 Aqua Packs at SEP of $699. We are working with our partners to restock all SKUs of Radeon RX Vega64 including the standalone cards and Gamer Packs over the next few weeks, and you should expect quantities of Vega to start arriving in the coming days.”

This in conjunction with the cards being out of stock in a lot of places is more than enough to realize there's a supply problem. If there wasn't a supply problem there would be no statement.

EDIT:Vega came so late to meet supply demands which they are clearly not coming close to doing considering how everything was out of stock on day zero.

There are no lies in the quoted statements. Supply problems are a given, just take a look at the last ten years and find a product that wasn't out of stock on release. Maybe you'll find one 5-10 years ago that didn't have supply problems. However I don't see how a statement saying "Demand is high, we're working on replenishing stock," is construed as them lying about Vega's supply.

 

[Hood]

but when reality sets in and answers are provided I'm going to bet that the whole situation is significantly more mundane than you're making it out to be.

You're probably right. I just wanted to list some of the things they've told us that don't add up. Mostly because I'm tired of AMD fans making more excuses for AMD's failure, and taking them at face value. I don't recall any other company that gets a pass for this kind of behavior, and I'm not inclined to give them benefit of doubt at this point. I don't like the way they play with people's heads, people who have been loyal to them and supported them wholly. They cash in on that loyalty shamelessly and without remorse, in pursuit of the almighty dollar, and forget that customer loyalty is their greatest asset right now, and how fleeting it can be.

 

[Th3pwn3r]

There are no lies in the quoted statements. Supply problems are a given, just take a look at the last ten years and find a product that wasn't out of stock on release. Maybe you'll find one 5-10 years ago that didn't have supply problems. However I don't see how a statement saying "Demand is high, we're working on replenishing stock," is construed as them lying about Vega's supply.

The lie exists in the sense that they said they purposely delayed launch to produce enough stock for demand. That's one, the other is in pricing.

 

[notb]

I'm pretty sure the supply problems are real when the product is sold out and there are consumers trying to buy it.

That's a supply problem for the consumers. The rumour we're discussing says that it's the manufacturers that are having a supply problem. Now this is something that AMD could be faking or even creating.
We know they launched these cards with unrealistically low prices. We know they're trying to sell them for more.
What better excuse than "supply problems"?
This way they can sell these cards at elevated price for months.

 

[Fouquin]

You're probably right. I just wanted to list some of the things they've told us that don't add up. Mostly because I'm tired of AMD fans making more excuses for AMD's failure, and taking them at face value. I don't recall any other company that gets a pass for this kind of behavior, and I'm not inclined to give them benefit of doubt at this point. I don't like the way they play with people's heads, people who have been loyal to them and supported them wholly. They cash in on that loyalty shamelessly and without remorse, in pursuit of the almighty dollar, and forget that customer loyalty is their greatest asset right now, and how fleeting it can be.

I won't apologize for them if they truly are lying straight to the consumer, and I'm curious to find out why many people (who in large part are not buying AMD's products) feel they are being lied to. This product launch doesn't look any different compared to the launches of the last 10+ years.

The lie exists in the sense that they said they purposely delayed launch to produce enough stock for demand. That's one, the other is in pricing.

So they lied because they under-estimated consumer demand? That's a poor marketing [of consumer demand] perspective, not a blatant lie. The pricing was a subject of another thread where an AMD representative (Gerald Youngblood) gave confirmation that prices set by AMD have not changed since launch.

 

[Xzibit]

The lie exists in the sense that they said they purposely delayed launch to produce enough stock for demand. That's one, the other is in pricing.

Might want adjust all your post for the miss quoting.

we wanted to make sure we were launching with good volume

Might be why you feel they lied to you or your lying to us.

 

[Hood]

Do you have links with evidence of actual lies? I'm genuinely curious.[/QUOTE
Ambiguous statements are never attributed to a company spokesperson, it's always "a trusted source close to the company", or something else that provides maximum deniability. These are tricks almost as old as humanity, used by lawyers, politicians, snake oil vendors, and other professional liars. It's surprising that people still fall for them.

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

AMD's supply and demand market models are out dated and could not account for such a huge demand.

 

[Fouquin]

Ambiguous statements are never attributed to a company spokesperson, it's always "a trusted source close to the company", or something else that provides maximum deniability. These are tricks almost as old as humanity, used by lawyers, politicians, snake oil vendors, and other professional liars. It's surprising that people still fall for them.

Which would generally be a suspicion if information quoted direct from AMD (employees, marketing representatives, etc) hadn't already been released addressing the matter.

 

[Assimilator]

Okay, so I forgot one big drawback of GDDR over HBM: power consumption. This article sums it up nicely.

The tl;dr is that HBM is a necessity for Fiji and Vega - not because of bandwidth, but because of wattage. Those GPUs consume far more power than NVIDIA's ones of the same performance, and if AMD coupled them with GDDR, the resultant package's power use would make Fermi look like small potatoes.

Or to put it another way: NVIDIA invested money into making their GPUs energy efficient, and one of the dividends of that is that they can use the far cheaper and plentiful, but more power-hungry, GDDR memory. AMD either didn't or couldn't do the same, with the result that they had to find another option, and the only other option was HBM.

 

[Th3pwn3r]

This lie or that lie, truth or not, it doesn't matter. Fact is Vega isn't in stock like it's supposed to have been no matter the reason. Prices don't make sense either, again, no matter what reason.

 

[Fouquin]

This lie or that lie, truth or not, it doesn't matter. Fact is Vega isn't in stock like it's supposed to have been no matter the reason.

Neither was Fiji.
Neither was Hawaii.
Neither was Kepler.

Could keep going back but the point is made. New GPUs run out of stock and are subsequently drip-fed into the market until demand subsides and stock can normalize. It's not something that AMD is doing specifically with Vega to piss off their customers.

 

[Th3pwn3r]

Neither was Fiji.
Neither was Hawaii.
Neither was Kepler.

Could keep going back but the point is made. New GPUs run out of stock and are subsequently drip-fed into the market until demand subsides and stock can normalize. It's not something that AMD is doing specifically with Vega to piss off their customers.

Personally I don't really care what the reason is, I'm not saying AMD is doing things to piss off customers. If people want to get upset and raise their pitchforks then whatever lol.