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Riot Games Gaffe Results in Sexism Allegations at Pax West 2018

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So one of them is a feminist guy (how does that even work?)

As I understand it, "true", or maybe it would be more correct to say "old" feminism merely calls for equality between women and men, to put it simply.

There's a lot of "new" shit floating about these days perpetrated by small groups of very loud, and very annoying people. The kind of people who would get you in trouble for simply holding a door for a woman... as if you are somehow implying that women are too weak to open doors. It's that kind of thing which I think is absolutely over-reaching and ridiculous, and it needs to stop. I also think these kinds of people are counter productive towards what should really be the goal for everybody, at least, what I think it should be, which is simply equality for everyone. I think that because these people generate a lot of hate towards themselves because what they say is perceived as ridiculous by a lot of people.
 
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Name one valid argument for "safe spaces."
I already did. You may want to review.

Not from where I'm sitting.

Good on you. Care to name a direct reason or is that it?

He asked for a "study that can actually fully account for upbringing and social background?" and that article does. It just happened to focus on children with "conduct disorders, attention deficit disorder with or without hyperactivity, and antisocial personality disorder."

You know what sample bias is, right? I ask because it's quite prevelant now in two samples I have seen you present.

From "sensitivity training" (a universally good thing), to a private club, to blatant political activism.

Uh huh. And why is political activism bad, exactly? What do you think you are doing here?

The hatred of safe spaces is quite hypocritical, especially considering your whole arguement comes apart at the seams when you realize sexual orientation is not a political statement. Advocacy to protect oneself from hate should never even be up for debate. People can say what they want yes. That does not free them from the consequences of what they say, and that sword cuts both ways.

As I understand it, "true", or maybe it would be more correct to say "old" feminism merely calls for equality between women and men, to put it simply.

Exactly. I'm probably going to blow fords mind by telling him I consider myself a feminist, but I do, and that's my right.

Dismissive, yes. Oppressive, not so much.

People need to learn to filter then. We are in the age of the internet; everyone online has a basic right to speak. If you are "getting sick" of hearing about a particular group or issue, rather than raging against the group and wishing silence upon them (a form of modern effective oppression, BTW), did you ever consider just uh, ignoring them? Reading something else? Swiping them off your feed? We have tools for this. You don't have to love the content, but for god sake society quit trying to act like hating on the person themselves and calling for their blatant silencing is acceptable or normal.
 
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And why is political activism bad, exactly?
I'm just going to leave this here: Hundreds arrested in multi-day protests of Supreme Court nominee
In an unusually intense episode of civil disobedience on Capitol Hill, the four-day Senate Judiciary Committee hearing was targeted for “creative resistance” by liberal activist groups, said Linda Sarsour, Women’s March board member. … Sarsour told Reuters that her group’s members accounted for 209 of the 212 arrests made Tuesday through Thursday, including nearly all of the 177 arrests within the hearing room.
All the interruptions and noise have zero impact on the outcome of the vote (he will be confirmed).

What do you think you are doing here?
What I always do: present counter points.

Exactly. I'm probably going to blow fords mind by telling him I consider myself a feminist, but I do, and that's my right.
There's this little thing called the 19th amendment which extends the "equal protection clause" of the 14th amendment to women. In terms of legalities, the matter is settled (like Roe v. Wade).

TL;DR: "Live and let live." I have no time for people overly emotional about their own private business that doesn't (nor should) concern me.
 
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Well... I had a point to make here but it became a total rant about attitude and personal accountability. Oh well. Stuff like this gets me down. It's not even about whatever the issue at hand is. It's the whole attitude we have towards ourselves and other people that quite frankly sucks a whole bag of dicks. I struggle to see the meaning in it all.

One thing I really don't get about all of these little pushes for diversity, acceptance, acknowledgement, privilege, so on... ...is this constant need to put labels on everything and everyone, assign priorities to them, and push each group into its own insulated corner. It just seems to me that their ideas are supposed to favor inclusion as much as humanly possible, in every minute area, but actually their practices are blatantly exclusionary. It's marginalization in reverse. Us against them really just puts both people in spaces that fundamentally can't be shared. That sort of back and forth can go on forever. One side asking the other to step down in the name of understanding clearly doesn't work. It's two wrongs trying to make a right.

I mean, really. Why, if you want everything to be open and everyone to be accepted, would anyone intentionally say and do things that directly serve to divide and stir up tensions between huge, sweeping groups of people? It just seems highly divisive for the sake of it. I really think in a lot of cases it isn't about unity at all. Or at least it doesn't appear that way. If it actually is, then it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's almost as though the conflict born of it is actually desired. It motivates people to say and do shitty things to each other - on both sides. And we feel good about it. I don't see where the understanding is even supposed to begin with a lot of these backs and forths.

We seem to like fixating on and creating problems that fundamentally have no answer. Strange as it may sound to some people, there really are things that we all will never agree upon. For one side to win, another would have to lose. Isn't the idea behind all this supposed to be that we all win? Sometimes I think that's the real fallacy. Though I also think it's all done as though to justify our existence in all of its misfortunes and poor choices... ...to validate our lives not being what we want them to be and diffuse personal responsibility for coping with that.

And that is the big thing. Not everything that happens to you is your fault. Everyone deserves to be free of suffering. Nobody deserves half of the problems they're stuck with. But even though it's not your fault, it's still your responsibility. It's still your problem. Doesn't matter who or what is to blame - it is literally interchangeable. This is a universal aspect of the human experience. One thing never changes there. There are certain things only you can do for yourself. It's never about what others can or should be doing for you. It's ALWAYS about what you are willing to do for yourself. And it is entirely up to you to figure out what works and what doesn't.

To me, everyone is disadvantaged in one way or another. The world itself is out to kill each and every one of us - all of the time! This world truly doesn't owe any of us anything. That is why we must make it a point to owe the world unto ourselves. If you can't or refuse to do that, you can't make it! That's best thing anyone can do in the face of the adversity that is inherent to just being a goddamned person. You are your own representative in everything that you say and do. Other people can never represent you quite as well as you can yourself. And if I'm honest, I think trying to change that is really stupid and actually serves to devalue who you are and what you're actually worth as a human being.

Obviously, we should all do what we can to minimize disadvantage. The world is a better place when more people have more chances to participate, be happy, and most importantly contribute. However... the moment you start looking at other people, what traits they have that you don't, opportunities they have that you don't, treatment they get that you don't... and you start seriously trying to define yourself by that, you're completely fucked. You really are. Because if you dig deep enough, you will ALWAYS find someone or something that's out to get you. Comparing yourself to others in that way isn't a healthy or productive way to build yourself up as a person, even if you really do deserve more. There is a real danger in defining yourself by your misfortune. Who you are is now conditional and therefore at the mercy of forces you cannot hope to understand or control.

Good luck on the whole being happy with your place in the world thing in that case. You'll find points of conflict at every turn, often when there was potential for understanding. You'll miss opportunities right in front of you while you're busy fighting for ones that as things are now, you simply are not meant to have. Whether it's right or wrong doesn't change reality. It's one thing to get the thought out, but another to make it your reason for being. We can change it to an extent, but it's not a cataclysm. It takes a very long time for that kind of social change to really take hold... ...in other words it's not happening in your lifetime. You're going to have to find another way to happy anyway. Putting everything on carving out the place you feel you deserve in the world is really setting yourself up for a fall. Life is too short, man! It's important to check your reasons for doing what you do. I highly suspect that many people out there today trying to change the world don't actually want to change the world. They just want to be happy. Just so happens some people feel like the world needs to change for them to stand a chance at that. It's actually kind of depressing to thing about. I can't imagine how that would feel.

All I see now are a lot of the wrong people trying to change the world for the wrong reasons - they simply aren't cut out for it and don't have it in them to make the world a better place for it. There is somewhere else they're supposed to be, where they'd actually be happy and they'd make the people around them happy. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people out there that I respect and appreciate for the things they accomplish - people with ideas that move us forward and the legs to bring them to people. Most of us don't have that. But some of us want to act like we do when all we're really doing is spinning our wheels and wasting precious time that could be spent trying to be happy by our own means. For gods sake, if all that you really want is to be happy, don't try to change the world. Leave that for people who want to change the world because they actually care about others and want the world to be a better place. Don't pretend to have reasons bigger than yourself when all signs point to it being about you. Terrible way to go, really.

Honestly, I think if people just focused more on solidifying their own sense of self-identity instead of worrying about how other people see and treat them, we'd all have a hell of a lot less to argue about. And what would be left is the real inequality. But at least then it'd be clear what was real marginalization and what is just a made up conflict scenario used to reinforce some folks fragile sense of core identity and get them ahead in life. Group identity can be the worst thing to ever fucking happen to someone. For real. It moves into the empty space within a person and promises a whole lot of things it doesn't deliver on. Almost never ends well for anyone. It is absolutely corrosive to a healthy, hardy sense of personal identity. And the worst part is that it all feels meaningful.

I guess for me, I don't relate as a simple matter of attitudes towards life. One thing I've learned very well at this point is that life is not about what happens to you. That is NOT what makes a person a person. You can't control what happens to you. Making yourself into a victim of circumstance is about the most crippling thing you can do to your personal development. It's not up to you how people will treat you, or what opportunities will be afforded to you. Knowing this, you can either obsess about how pinned down life has you and attack things from that point - try to carve meaning from that stone, or you can instead define yourself and justify your actions by way of the choices you make and what those choices represent, for you. And the funny thing is, when you have an existence that is self-justifying and you are focusing on making the best choices you can and just staying true to who you know yourself to be regardless of what happens to you, you often find yourself in places that better enable you to be you and do what you do. And suddenly the world doesn't seem so bad.

When somebody doesn't like me, or singles me out and puts me in a disadvantaged position, I say fuck em and look elsewhere. To me it is just so much easier and more fruitful to find a place where you already belong than it is to make one where there isn't one. The world is such a big place. Frankly I do not have two shits of a fuck to give about what people think about me or how many rations of shit I'm gonna get served simply for existing. It doesn't matter. What I couldn't forgive myself for was not focusing on being the best me I can... ...for wasting all of my time trying to change other people when I could've spent it changing myself into someone who's better equipped to get what he needs in a world that doesn't play fair. Nobody has the luxury of of that kind of time. The clock is ticking away, and the amount of time you have left to find happiness and personal satisfaction is dwindling. I feel like if you need other people to treat you like you for you to actually be and feel yourself, something is really, truly wrong with you. And until you figure that out, you will never be happy, even if the world bends to your will.


I don't think that is the case all of the time. I'm not meaning to single anyone out and I don't think anyone here is guilty of it. These are still conversations that need to happen. But I think for a lot of people with all of these chips on their shoulders and causes to uphold on all matters pertaining to identity and societal positioning, there is something missing from them as people... ...as if without being marginalized, who they are doesn't make sense and has no reason to exist. They exist only as a part of this group that could be happy and could be successful if only they weren't so oppressed by this other group. They made the mistake of asking themselves "why me?" and they've sure found their answer. Not an answer that paints a good picture for their futures, but an answer nonetheless...

At the end of the day, I don't think people have to agree with the choices other people make or how a person chooses to define himself. I think everyone's endeavors are their own and it is up to individuals to try to shape themselves and make decisions so as to maximize happiness and success in life, regardless of circumstances. Other people cannot do that for you, and if you really think that somehow by leveling the playing field you are going to be better equipped to appreciate what you have, seize the right opportunities, and figure out what you really need, you've got a rude awakening coming.

Like, imagine you encounter someone who just hates you. No logical reason... ...they just hate who you are because of who they are. What's the best way to deal with that? Why would you ever want to associate with this person? What do you want from them that's even worth having? Do you even care about what's best for them at all? Do you really want to know why they hate you? Should you? What benefit is there to forcibly surrounding yourself with these people and strong-arming them into pretending to be your friends? How does this end in anything other than conflict and tension?

That's the problem with comparing ourselves to others. The whole mindset of "You are not like me. You don't understand me. We have to do something about that." is absolute poison to our progress both as a society and as individuals. There's no "we" to that. You have to figure that out. Look at the hand you're dealt and figure out the best way to play it. Doesn't matter who you are or where you are, that's the name of the game. It's like when you're playing monopoly and everyone keeps asking for rule changes to stay in the game until the game has gone so long with nobody winning that nobody even wants to play anymore. Why does it seem like we all NEED for people to understand us in order for us to operate in the world. When did people become so fragile? Why has that become an attitude that is encouraged? I don't get on with this whole idea that you are unhappy because of what other people do instead of what you do... ...and that other people should have to change how they operate so that you can be happy.

There is discrimination in the world. It's a real thing. And then, there's... ...something else. Something kind of sickly and destructive to people in a really sinister way.

It's gotten so ridiculous now that it's become impossible to know what really, absolutely needs to be taken seriously and what is just born of a now very widespread problem with how we define ourselves. Too many people looking at other people, not enough really looking at and getting to know themselves. 90% of this crap is a total waste of time that could be spent actually producing things and becoming better versions of ourselves... ...versions so good that they don't need to be justified to others in order to function successfully. Instead we put so much emphasis on our differences that it is dissolving any real, earned sense of personal identity and thus pushing people further into that corner of being perpetually disadvantaged. Slowly but surely, we are ceasing to be unique.

Sometimes it's better to simply focus on what you can do instead of making it all about your lot in society, you know? That is what it takes to really overcome it. We all have things that we can't do by no faults of our own. But what we really desperately need to figure out is where we draw a line between when you simply look elsewhere and when something is actually wrong and needs changing. We need to stop being caricatures. Just be a person and leave the rest be. Geez. What I think happened is that we took what are supposed to be personal decisions and personal needs, amplified them to the max, and started trying to apply them to one another when it never really needed to or should've been that way. And now we're sort of stuck trying to come together on shit was never really meant to be hashed out in the first place.
 
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People need to learn to filter then. We are in the age of the internet; everyone online has a basic right to speak. If you are "getting sick" of hearing about a particular group or issue, rather than raging against the group and wishing silence upon them (a form of modern effective oppression, BTW), did you ever consider just uh, ignoring them? Reading something else? Swiping them off your feed? We have tools for this. You don't have to love the content, but for god sake society quit trying to act like hating on the person themselves and calling for their blatant silencing is acceptable or normal.

Did you mean "you" in general? I haven't said anything here other than share the dismissiveness I mentioned. I think it is good to be friendly in general. The only case where I get actively hostile is when they encourage kids...and effectively make choices for them. Kids don't even know much, if anything, about sex, and barely care about gender either.. yet these people would make drag them down the rabbit hole and adopt a whole worldview surrounding it. Kids aren't even taught much about the world surrounding heterosexuality and oversexualized stories on that angle. So why is this given a pass?

Otherwise, work out your own issues. But if they persist in this, "mean words" are the last thing they need to worry about. They will eventually reap something far worse. The public at large just isn't aware enough yet.


 
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Did you mean "you" in general?

Yes.

I have nothing more to say here otherwise. My point is lost on ford, apparently. He's continously countering with points that fail to address the actual questions, completely oblivious that most would consider what he is doing here political activism. It's disappointing.
 

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I'll answer you questions point blank then since you apparently don't like nuanced responses...

You know what sample bias is, right?
Yes. Not sample bias in my example but a control. Those conditions are known to increase criminality as they reach adulthood. Increased criminality was confirmed, at least in males. Females, as usual, mostly internalized their condition. Doesn't matter which group you look at, that behavioral difference between sexes is common and the cause is known and well documented. Interestingly, men with high testosterone also know when to be submissive to a dominant male, at least in economic situations.

And why is political activism bad, exactly?
Activism: a one way street. Activists attempt to change minds through disruption. It never works.

Case in point: segregation was ended by the Brown v. Board of Education ruling which was brought forward by 13 parents and their 20 kids. You never heard about Oliver Brown et. al. because they weren't political activists. They were people harmed by the government and went through the proper legal channels to the Supreme Court which overturned Plessy v. Ferguson (a Civil War reconstruction ruling) unanimously.

What do you think you are doing here?
Debate: a two way street. People can learn from other people through debate and it can be mutually beneficial to reaching a common ground.


Did I miss any?
 
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I'll simply close by saying the Supreme court sees relevant issues, often determined by what is pushed by activists, on both sides. I'd fear for the state of the nation were activism to die.

Debate is furthermore a subset of activism. Your bias is present in your response.
 

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I'll simply close by saying the Supreme court sees relevant issues, often determined by what is pushed by activists, on both sides.
False. SCOTUS only glances at cases that passed through the federal court system specifically for if there is Constitutional reasoning why the lower courts ruled wrong. SCOTUS hears a lot of cases on an annual basis (mostly criminal) and very, very few of them have any political activism involved (usually the cases that get media attention).

Debate is furthermore a subset of activism.
Look at the root word of "activism:" action. Usually doing something like striking, picketing, public demonstrations, etc. Debate is a discussion, usually regulated (i.e. by a moderator). I've yet to see a debate called activism but activists may appear in debates to make their case.

Your bias is present in your response.
Pray tell what "bias" that would be. Peer review studies? Facts on legal precedent? Stating the obvious?


Getting back to the thread topic. The stated goal of Riot Games' event at PAX West was to "support women and non-binary folks." Did it succeed or did it not? There's a lot of noise surrounding the event but I don't think that question has been answered by Riot Games.
 
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By still not recognizing debate as an action.

(usually the cases that get media attention).

How is media attention generated?

The media shows what it thinks the public wants to see. This hooks directly into activism. An unengaged public is a public of sheep.

I know you are correct from an official "how things should work" perspective ford. But like utopia, that's not the result the real world often gets. Thinga are often influenced by activism, and an engaged public is a GOOD thing.
 
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The media shows what it thinks the public wants to see. This hooks directly into activism. An unengaged public is a public of sheep.

I know you are correct from an official "how things should work" perspective ford. But like utopia, that's not the result the real world often gets. Thinga are often influenced by activism, and an engaged public is a GOOD thing.

Eh.. the media engages the public on what THEY want the public to see. They'll take a pass on other things.

Take it from someone who was in the media herself:

 

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A lot of members of the media are activists. Blatant example: Al Sharpton on MSNBC making a public scene of the shooting of Travon Martin which, in turn, lead to unbelivable amounts of media coverage and subsequent political activism that amounted to nothing except more activism.

Even the media lied on that. They turned it into a race thing, and made out the shooter to be some white guy, motivated purely out racial malice. When he's only a third white, and his own mom is Peruvian and African mixed.
 

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Even the media lied on that. They turned it into a race thing, and made out the shooter to be some white guy, motivated purely out racial malice. When he's only a third white, and his own mom is Peruvian and African mixed.

Nothing like a good race war to get ratings, right?
 
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As someone who has worked media, I will only state that the media is not supposed to work that way. Even I'll admit it does at times, but I don't think the impact is near as signifigant as most believe. Ultimately, in the end, we report what we are assigned, and that is determined by what sells, ie public interest.

A lot of people in general are what I would term "activists"
 
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Nothing like a good race war to get ratings, right?

Sadly true. They can air the woe and calamity for a good two weeks or more. A sure fire seller.

Because such individuals can't be racist, right?

As someone who grew up mixed race myself, I'm going to say "NAH." We generally grow up juggling and struggling with identity and figuring out how to wade through the B.S. before we're 10. It's the rest that have a harder time it seems. But for some reason, all of them seem to know better.. they preach and shout about race from the rooftops. Especially all of the "woke" white millennial college kids.
 

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A lot of people in general are what I would term "activists"
Funny, I don't personally know any activists. My brother loves guns. He's bought a lot of guns and fires them regularly. Is he going to D.C. to pro-gun rallies in front of SCOTUS and COTUS? Nope. How is he an activist when he's merely exercising his 2nd amendment rights?

...they preach and shout about race from the rooftops.
That's behavior usually attributed to activists--taking the 1st amendment to extremes. Getting police involved because people in the neighborhood can't sleep or get to wherever they're going.

It's a common thing for diners in small towns to become a place where people debate the latest news. Are people that do that activists? They're just passing the time.
 
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Especially all of the "woke" white millennial college kids.

I'm not a milennial, but close enough. :laugh:

That's behavior usually attributed to activists--taking the 1st amendment to extremes. Getting police involved because people in the neighborhood can't sleep or get to wherever they're going.

I think you and I define "activist" very differently. You don't even have to protest in person to be an activist, as I was taught.

I also think anyone can be racist. Not trying to argue you are predisposed to it or anything, just that it can occur. FWIW I doubt it's common in minorities, but we have things as confusing as black KKK members, so go figure.

At any rate, I am out. As I stated earlier, I lost a friend to this conflict, which both biases and upsets me to an emotional degree. I will not be participating further, but do not mistake my lack of participstion for lack of an arguement. There is a conflict here and to deny that is silly.
 
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On one hand, I actually appreciate more awareness of racial issues.. but it's also cringeworthy where it's usually coming from lately.

It reminds me EXACTLY of when someone quits smoking.. and then they start walking around like their crap doesn't stink and they get in everyone's faces about smoking.. it's hyper-vigilance to the point of being a detriment to the cause of getting people to quit.
 

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I think you and I define "activist" very differently.
This is true. I look at it from the point of view of criminology. Law has to draw a line on activism as a matter of public safety.

As I stated earlier, I lost a friend to this conflict, which both biases and upsets me to an emotional degree.
What?!? :eek:
 
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I'm not a milennial, but close enough. :laugh:



I think you and I define "activist" very differently. You don't even have to protest in person to be an activist, as I was taught.

I also think anyone can be racist. Not trying to argue you are predisposed to it or anything, just that it can occur. FWIW I doubt it's common in minorities, but we have things as confusing as black KKK members, so go figure.

At any rate, I am out. As I stated earlier, I lost a friend to this conflict, which both biases and upsets me to an emotional degree. I will not be participating further, but do not mistake my lack of participstion for lack of an arguement. There is a conflict here and to deny that is silly.

I think mostly people of a monolithic upbringing can be potentially racist, but I think being mixed race does a number on you...makes you learn about confronting multiple worlds/races early on, from a very personal standpoint. I suppose if you hated one side of your family, you could easily be racist and hate parts of yourself.. but I think that's the exception. I think the majority of kids like that want to find things in themselves they love. They experience shame sometimes from one side, but they fight to make sense of it all. Else they could never make sense of their own being. Not making sense of it is suicide really. Not an option :p

edit: Ahem! That said, I think a lot of people aren't very culturally monolithic either. So there's just less racism in general these days. A lot of us are growing up juggling multiple worlds now. Not necessarily on the level I mentioned above, but it still somewhat applies.
 

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It reminds me EXACTLY of when someone quits smoking.. and then they start walking around like their crap doesn't stink and they get in everyone's faces about smoking.. it's hyper-vigilance to the point of being a detriment to the cause of getting people to quit.
So very this. Nothing changes when everyone is in their respective corners (tribalism). That's the fundamental problem I have with people who consider themselves activists (under criminology definition): "I want change" they say but their actions reinforce the status quo.
 

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With this, as with all things, there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. Promoting progressive ideas and standing up for those who have been exposed to discrimination for one reason or the other is one thing... but then you get these people that take it to extremes (much like KAT said, getting in everyone's faces) and promote ridiculous ideas (like my example about holding a door open) which really has the opposite effect, in my opinion. It's almost like these people could care less about the actual thing they appear to care about and more about generating attention towards themselves.


Yeah, he said something about that a couple pages back. That's probably part of the "privilege" that's been mentioned numerous times in this thread. I don't know anything about RTB personally, other than he lost a friend who was "different" due to discrimination/hate, but that's at least one "privilege" that was lost on him that I now know about. To be honest, for me personally, it's easy to be dismissive towards the idea that I am somehow inherently privileged over others, but maybe I'm starting to change my mind on that... after hearing about things like that, and looking back on things I've seen in my own life. It could have easily been me if I was born differently as some of us are, and no doubt I would feel quite disadvantaged compared to everyone else. It certainly helps to hear about these things from someone I know (as much as an online forum, anyway) and respect, rather than those overly self righteous SJW people who spew garbage most of the time.

I wonder how long it will take before people stop hating on other people for stupid reasons that don't even affect them? Looking back, humanity as a whole has come a long way from what it once was, even recently, but we're nowhere near where we should be yet.
 
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A friend (since middleschool) of mine commited suicide not long ago, cheifly blaming gender identity issues.

I can't really elaborate further, for several reasons, but this wound is still very fresh.
 

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I wonder how long it will take before people stop hating on other people for stupid reasons that don't even affect them?
This goes right back to tribalism. 0% chance of happening in our lifetimes.

A friend (since middleschool) of mine commited suicide not long ago, cheifly blaming gender identity issues.
My sympathies. Must have missed it before.
 
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