Editorial Linux Community Hit by the Blight of Social Justice Warfare, A Great Purge is Coming

[Aquinus]

Have you ever used systemd? I have a gentoo machine running it that hasn't hard rebooted in over 4 months...

At my last job we had a RHEL box that had an uptime of just shy of 1000 days before we moved the database to a different machine.

edit: Also welcome to the Linux equivalent of a "registry"... where a single binary file handles configuration.

Could you explain that a little bit? Last time I checked /etc was full of configurations for various things that are typically in some textual format you can edit and not a binary format only readable or writable by whatever is using it. Do you mean things like kernel options provided at boot time? You know, things that can't be changed once the machine is running? I'll admit that not every config in /etc is going to be the same but, if you look in the Windows registry, there is wide variation between applications and I'm not convinced that one is better than the other.

To me, I prefer something like /etc because I can choose what my configuration files for an application I'm developing will look like. If I'm writing a Clojure application I can have far more expressive configs using EDN as I get primitives for things like sets, regex strings, dates, and UUIDs forget how it maps directly to the language without any translation.

edit: I mean, the whole point of Linux was control. And it's slowly getting out of people's hands.... in more ways than one.

Can you explain that as well? Last time I checked I can pull the kernel source and look at everything inside of it, short of any BLOBs for proprietary code such as firmware or closed-source drivers (like nVIdia's only real driver or AMD's AMDGPU-Pro driver.) All in all, it's far more open than a lot of other options out there so, I'm not sure what you mean by not having control. I've never felt like I don't have control in Linux. Just saying.

 

[moproblems99]

So, equal opportunity does not mean equal opportunity?

I have done my best not to move the thread like this but let me issue a final remark on it:

Equal Opportunity = Equal Opportunity to move up. Forget about starting point because it is impossible to guarantee that everyone starts at the same position unless we get into 1984ish type circumstances. Forget about ending point because that is equal outcome. Equal opportunity simply means that everyone has the opportunity to move up.

 

[R-T-B]

Can you explain that as well? Last time I checked I can pull the kernel source and look at everything inside of it, short of any BLOBs for proprietary code such as firmware or closed-source drivers (like nVIdia's only real driver or AMD's AMDGPU-Pro driver.) All in all, it's far more open than a lot of other options out there so, I'm not sure what you mean by not having control. I've never felt like I don't have control in Linux. Just saying.

YOu can also supply your own non-systemd init system. Gentoo allows this.

 

[StrayKAT]

Do you mean things like kernel options provided at boot time? You know, things that can't be changed once the machine is running?

Sorry, it's the logging that is binary (apparently prone to corruption too. And has some paranoid - You can suppress information in binary.). It's still bloated though in the sense that it's doing more than startup services now and becoming a single point of control. Everything from userspace stuff like GNOME to xfce to file system management to power management events is run by systemd now (and even then, the options are limited to what you used to be able to do through simple scripts. This is both good and bad, I guess. The average desktop user would like everything dumbed down... or not even worth looking at).

YOu can also supply your own non-systemd init system. Gentoo allows this.

What does that matter when more and more software is creating dependencies on it?

 

[Aquinus]

Sorry, it's the logging that is binary (apparently prone to corruption too. And has some paranoid - You can suppress information in binary.).

The logs themselves? They're not binary either and once again, just like /etc, you can provide it in any format you want (raw text is normal,) as they're just files that typically live in /var/log. Any service can choose what to write to /var/log and how it wants to write it. You're making no sense with your statements, man.

It's still bloated though in the sense that it's doing more than startup services now and becoming a single point of control. Everything from userspace stuff like GNOME to xfce to file system management to power management events is run by systemd now (and even then, the options are limited to what you used to be able to do through simple scripts.

You don't even need to use systemd if you don't like it. How about upstart? Once again, there are options if you have a particular problem that needs to be solved. Also, I find that starting Gnome uses less resources than starting Windows or starting OS X. I wouldn't call that bloated.

The average desktop user would like everything dumbed down... or not even worth looking at).

Gnome is pretty simple... I'm not sure how much more simple you could make it.

What does that matter when more and more software is creating dependencies on it?

You're always going to have dependencies. Part of the dev process is, you know, choosing what you want to use. That's kind of important and for a lot of applications, it won't really matter how your service gets started. As far as your application cares, it could be started with nohup. Your application shouldn't care if it's being managed by upstart, systemd, monit, or whatever you choose to use to manage it.

 

[R-T-B]

What does that matter when more and more software is creating dependencies on it?

I mean, almost nothing depends explicity on systemd? You can write an init script pretty easily.

 

[StrayKAT]

I mean, almost nothing depends explicity on systemd? You can write an init script pretty easily.

Like I said, even Gnome depends on it... at least the later versions. So much so that it's probably being dropped on BSD (as of now, it's an old Gnome). Although there is a solution (that Slackware uses) to fake the presence of systemd with a wrapper.. but I don't think BSDs are down with that.

 

[R-T-B]

Like I said, even Gnome depends on it... at least the later versions. So much so that it's probably being dropped on BSD (as of now, it's an old Gnome). Although there is a solution (that Slackware uses) to fake the presence of systemd with a wrapper.. but I don't think BSDs are down with that.

Gnome 3. There's plenty of alternatives though. MATE is literally a gnome fork that supports standard script based inits (GNOME 2 foundation). GNOME 3 is like the only thing I can think of that isn't a systemd module.

 

[StrayKAT]

Gnome 3. There's plenty of alternatives though. MATE is literally a gnome fork that supports standard script based inits (GNOME 2 foundation). GNOME 3 is like the only thing I can think of that isn't a systemd module.

To be fair, they would probably say good riddance anyhow. More window manager and KDE fans there.

 

[R-T-B]

You're forgetting "warrior," aka, belligerent, aka, extremist.

Missed this, but when I see SJW, it's usually being belligerently levied as a insult to someone. Not worn as a badge. Making it basically an ill defined blunt instrument of verbal warfare. Much like how this thread is peppered with "the left this the left that" when I haven't even heard of 90% of the stuff that you apparently think we do or support.

I think both sides are closer than we think. But then we have someone driving us apart. Just going to leave this here as a recent example of "fear the others":

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1041451203442487297

To be fair, they would probably say good riddance anyhow. More window manager and KDE fans there.

Lol, I'd certainly say good riddance, but wasn't going there... Gnome is like Windows 8 to me without a start menu hack. Annoying.

 

[StrayKAT]

Missed this, but when I see SJW, it's usually being belligerently levied as a insult to someone. Not worn as a badge. Making it basically an ill defined blunt instrument of verbal warfare. Much like how this thread is peppered with "the left this the left that" when I haven't even heard of 90% of the stuff that you apparently think we do or support.



Lol, I'd certainly say good riddance, but wasn't going there... Gnome is like Windows 8 to me without a start menu hack. Annoying.

Well, I'm gonna say a "warrior for Social Justice" is easily MLK Jr. One of my favorite people of the 20th century.

But an SJW is someone who protested a plaque on a school with a quote from MLK.. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

It was deemed "problematic" because it was only about race.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/01/university-oregon-martin-luther-king-quote-inclusive/

 

[R-T-B]

I think what a SJW is is in the eyes of the beholder, and very poorly defined, with an always negative connotation though.

Which is precisely why it's a horrid term. You might as well run around calling people "buttface."

What happened to stating what you actually think they did wrong, rather than lumping them all in a convenient, easily hate-able group vaguely associated with the left?

I mean it's brilliant really, because it caters well to stupid people and a lot of our country still falls into that category, sadly. ("stupid" being below average in standard grading metrics, no offense intended despite the wording).

Well, I'm gonna say a "warrior for Social Justice" is easily MLK Jr. One of my favorite people of the 20th century.

But an SJW is someone who protested a plaque on a school with a quote from MLK.. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

It was deemed "problematic" because it was only about race.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/01/university-oregon-martin-luther-king-quote-inclusive/

And see? Here I am, a bonified evergreener, telling you that's stupid. We aren't laden with people like that. But they make a lot of noise.

 

[StrayKAT]

I think what a SJW is is in the eyes of the beholder, and very poorly defined, with an always negative connotation though.

Which is precisely why it's a horrid term. You might as well run around calling people "buttface."

What happened to stating what you actually think they did wrong, rather than lumping them all in a convenient, easily hate-able group vaguely associate with the left?

I mean it's brilliant really, because it caters well to stupid people and a lot of our country still falls into that category, sadly.

It isn't entirely poorly defined. From my understanding, it stems from Critical Theory with a dose of French Deconstructionism. From Critical Theory, you get the foundation for defining all aspects of life as between Victims and Oppressors... but with Deconstruction's knack for destroying any sense of objective reality/morality and it's ongoing quest for some higher truth in a postmodern world. In the end, it's sort of a victim olympics, with the most potentially oppressed finally winning out on all "truth" and whose opinions outweigh everyone else's. The African-American-Indian-Trans-Lesbian might have the most social value at the moment. Or whoever trumps that one next.

edit: I would also add that those Deconstructionists may very well have been a joke. There are some things that have come out in recent years that some of these philosophers and artists were being used by the CIA, to give the Soviet Union a bunch of bullshit to mull over and trick them into thinking the West had some "intellectual culture" superior to theirs. It was a LARP.

Only it infiltrated our own universities, and it's done more damage to the West now than it ever did the Soviets.

I'd also add that this is why Muslims suddenly have high social "value" than, say, white females now. Even though many Muslim circles go completely against the precepts of feminism (FGM, Honor killings, etc). They win the "victim" card more than the average feminists, because the "white patriarchy" (oppressor) hates them more. It's kind of the Black Hole/Singularity of Left Wing politics imo... where extreme Leftism and extreme Conservatism meet.

 

[moproblems99]

What happened to stating what you actually think they did wrong, rather than lumping them all in a convenient, easily hate-able group vaguely associated with the left?

Honestly, I think that is because humans are by nature tribal so we like to divide. I mean if you keep going down the totem pole there are religions that have subdivided themselves and kill each other.

 

[StrayKAT]

SJWs are the ones with the keenest eye for tribalism. Like I said, they're hyper-aware on the differences of others and have a hierarchy of victimhood.

If you don't want tribalism, you simply focus on merit.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Think a judge would ever call him or herself a "social justice warrior?" How about even fighting for "social justice?" I certainly don't. A judge would advocate for laws that treat everyone equally and a good judge rules the same way. If someone has been treated unfairly then they should seek "social justice" in the court of law where a judge hears the case and decides if the law was violated. That is not something for a mob to decide or even an individual outside of a court of law.


And thread derailed again. Unfortunately, I got nothing new to put it back on track.

 

[StrayKAT]

Think a judge would ever call him or herself a "social justice warrior?" How about even fighting for "social justice?" I certainly don't. A judge would advocate for laws that treat everyone equally and a good judge rules the same way. If someone has been treated unfairly then they should seek "social justice" in the court of law where a judge hears the case and decides if the law was violated. That is not something for a mob to decide or even an individual outside of a court of law.


And thread derailed again. Unfortunately, I got nothing new to put it back on track.

Doh... I thought I was kind of keeping on topic.

 

[hat]

@FordGT90Concept this thread's been derailed for so long, it may not even be earthbound anymore...

 

[moproblems99]

And thread derailed again.

There was nothing ever technical about the thread anyway. It has been political from start to now.

EDIT: And your mother is a hamster.

EDIT 2: I mean I call your mother a hamster.

EDIT 3: I deeply apologize. Please don't pull all your comments from the forums because you have been offended! I didn't know about the CoC! OH THE YUMANITY!!

 

[mtcn77]

I'd also add that this is why Muslims suddenly have high social "value" than, say, white females now. Even though many Muslim circles go completely against the precepts of feminism (FGM, Honor killings, etc). They win the "victim" card more than the average feminists, because the "white patriarchy" (oppressor) hates them more. It's kind of the Black Hole/Singularity of Left Wing politics imo... where extreme Leftism and extreme Conservatism meet.

I thought you were going to say "abolishes pretense." You know, Muhammed turned the Arabs away from very significant cultural codes like adoptions just because these create fake identities and that eventually turns any human away from the truth? Kind of did the opposite, really. He wasn't a pagan. He did everything so that reason, not faith kept reign.

 

[StrayKAT]

I thought you were going to say "abolishes pretense." You know, Muhammed turned the Arabs away from very significant cultural codes like adoptions just because these create fake identities and that eventually turns any human away from the truth? Kind of did the opposite, really. He wasn't a pagan. He did everything so that reason, not faith kept reign.

It doesn't matter what Muslims to believe per se. It's just about who is currently on the victim/oppressor axis. And unlike early Marxism, Critical Theory combats images/preconceptions in media and culture most of all.. That's it's main battleground, rather than economics. So from their perspective, Muslims get a lot of "victim" credit because their image in Western media and establishment is kind of low.

 

[mtcn77]

It doesn't matter what Muslims to believe per se. It's just about who is currently on the victim/oppressor axis. And unlike early Marxism, Critical Theory combats images/preconceptions in media and culture most of all.. That's it's main battleground, rather than economics. So from their perspective, Muslims get a lot of "victim" credit because their image in Western media and establishment is kind of low.

Yeah, because Democrats are anti-establisment and somehow that is supposed to be a Muslim thing?

 

[StrayKAT]

Yeah, because Democrats are anti-establisment and somehow that is supposed to be a Muslim thing?

The true ones aren't Democrats. They'd call themselves (left leaning) anarchists and just want to deconstruct Western culture and destroy shit.

I don't know what to make of Democrats anymore... or who's using who at this point.

 

[mtcn77]

The true ones aren't Democrats. They'd call themselves (left leaning) anarchists and literally just want to deconstruct Western culture and destroy shit.

I don't know what to make of Democrats anymore... or who's using who at this point.

Well, I gave a solid example. Democracy is what anarchists are doing because they are relativists. Everything is infinitely complex in their deranged minds and they are capable of anything, just because they don't stand up for anything actually. They have no moral grounds with which to view themselves. Perfect position to let the alter-ego out in the open.

 

[StrayKAT]

Well, I gave a solid example. Democracy is what anarchists are doing because they are relativists. Everything is infinitely complex in their deranged minds and they are capable of anything, just because they don't stand up for anything actually. They have no moral grounds with which to view themselves. Perfect position to let the alter-ego out in the open.

Ultimately, I think you're right (about Democracy). But I think the average person doesn't look at the consequence of certain trains of thought... Maybe they need a wake up call.

Then again, I could be wrong. Maybe there's more of them than I think. Look at the French Revolution. The whole country went mad.