Metro Exodus Developer Discusses Boycott of the PC Platform for Sequels over Steam Review Bombing

[lexluthermiester]

Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?

Ah but then you can render input to Walmart, or whoever, that you'd like them to carry said product. I've personally done this with Target. And within 2 months they had a certain product on shelves. In that instance it was a book. I don't like Walmart and thought it would be a good book for Target to have in store. They agreed and arranged to carry it, granted I wasn't the only person to chime in on the subject. Retailers listen to their customer base because they know they can loose business to Amazon and the like. When the public speaks, retailers that want to stay in business listen. In this case, a part of the public is speaking. Will they listen an put and end to this exclusivity nonsense?

 

[phanbuey]

Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?

Add to that analogy that it actually got pulled from Walmart's shelves because a shady chinese distributor gave someone in some subsidiary a kickback and you can see how a) that decision actually hurt the developers by making their product less accessible, thus hampering future products/sales and making them reliant on shady kickbacks and b) sets the trend for all the other shady distributors, hardware manufacturers, and business people who make decisions on behalf of developers that kickbacks for exclusive distribution are a thing, and this is a trend that should/can be exploited.

So yeah... choosing not to go to walgreens seems to be the definite correct choice in this instance.

https://mainmenu.games/2019/01/30/t...sers-support-boycotting-the-epic-games-store/

 

[hat]

Ah but then you can render input to Walmart, or whoever, that you'd like them to carry said product. I've personally done this with Target. And within 2 months they had a certain product on shelves. In that instance it was a book. I don't like Walmart and thought it would be a good book for Target to have in store. They agreed and arranged to carry it, granted I wasn't the only person to chime in on the subject. Retailers listen to their customer base because they know they can loose business to Amazon and the like. When the public speaks, retailers that want to stay in business listen. In this case, a part of the public is speaking. Will they listen and put and end to this exclusivity nonsense?

Add to that analogy that it actually got pulled from Walmart's shelves because a shady chinese distributor gave someone in some subsidiary a kickback and you can see how a) that decision actually hurt the developers by making their product less accessible, thus hampering future products/sales and making them reliant on shady kickbacks and b) sets the trend for all the other shady distributors, hardware manufacturers, and business people who make decisions on behalf of developers that kickbacks are a thing, and this is a trend that should/can be exploited.

So yeah... choosing not to go to walgreens seems to be the definite correct choice in this instance.

Oh sure, I agree with both your posts completely. Of course, you can reach out to your shop and tell them you'd like them to carry a certain specific product, and they'd listen if there was enough demand for a product (how many times have you seen the phrase "back by popular demand"?). You can also, of course, choose where to shop and what to buy "vote with your wallet". But what you can't do is dictate what store carries what or what store a manufacturer, developer, publisher etc puts their product. Not by yourself, anyway. The most powerful tool you have and will ever have is your wallet; use it wisely.

As for me, I own Metro 2033 on Steam (thought I had Last Light too, but I guess I don't). Picked it up on sale because I heard somewhere that it was kinda like Stalker. I'll probably grab Last Light now that it's on sale, and might pick this one up when it's on sale on Steam... because I personally don't want the inconvenience of another launcher.

 

[lexluthermiester]

As for me, I own Metro 2033 on Steam (thought I had Last Light too, but I guess I don't).

Both are on GOG. Get them there, DRM free. GOG has them for the same price or less.(Love ya GOG! You guys are awesome!)

 

[Shambles1980]

Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?

thats a redundant argument. mfrs fight over them selves to sell at walmart because that's where the majority of consumers shop..
your argument is 100% backwards.

 

[hat]

Wal-Mart and Walgreens are just random names I pulled fresh out of my rear end. I didn't mean to posit an actual scenario between the two shops.

Both are on GOG. Get them there, DRM free. GOG has them for the same price or less.(Love ya GOG! You guys are awesome!)

Ah, but that's the crux of the issue (for me). GOG is another account to manage. I already have Steam, why wouldn't I buy it there and avoid creating another account? However, supporting GOG (and thereby supporting their vision of DRM free software, and you know I don't like DRM any more than you) is a good reason to create an account with them...

 

[Shambles1980]

But your scenario was based on manufacturers putting their things where they want and tough for you the consumer.
When in reality because so many consumers shop in Walmart they fight over them selves to sell there, And they do that because that's where the consumers Chose to shop. not because thats where they chose to sell the stuff, or that they get a better return from walmart.
so your argument just went ahead and proved my point.

oh and as for your question, my consumer rights would be not to buy it from walgreans and the mfr would sell at walmart if they wanted my money (100% exactly what happens already)

 

[Guest!]

"I remember the words of Prof [some nickname presumably - no idea who this person is] " Is Andrew 'Prof' Prokhorov, the
game designer of STALKER and Metro series




By the way http://www.4a-games.com.mt/4a-dna/important-update

 

[Shambles1980]

yeah you know some (bad word) people will use that contact form to complain about the steam thing.

 

[hat]

But your scenario was based on manufacturers putting their things where they want and tough for you the consumer.

That's how it is, though. Sure, you can vote with your wallet, but if a manufacturer decides to exclusively carry at Walgreen's anyway... that's up to them. Might not be the best business decision, but one they can make.

When in reality because so many consumers shop in Walmart they fight over them selves to sell there, And they do that because that's where the consumers Chose to shop. not because thats where they chose to sell the stuff, or that they get a better return from walmart.
so your argument just went ahead and proved my point.

Of course. Generally, it would be a good business move to try to put your product where a lot of people shop, not to be exclusive at a place where fewer people shop. That's why I don't quite get this move to sell exclusively at Epic. I mean, I recognize Epic from way back in the early 00's seeing their logo every time I started UT99... but the Epic store is relatively unknown compared to Steam. Steam is a behemoth these days, and comparatively, as a storefront, Epic is just an upstart. Hopefully, if Steam really is that hard on developers who wish to put games on their store, maybe this move will cause them to re-evaluate their business model. Still, if Steam is flooded with tons of shitty indie games, how can 4A/THQ Nordic/Deep Silver/whoever not manage to put a title like Metro on it? Sure, it's not huge like Battlefield or Call of Duty, but it's gotta be a lot more recognizable than most of the stuff that somehow makes it on Steam. It doesn't look like it's very hard to get into.

oh and as for your question, my consumer rights would be not to buy it from walgreans and the mfr would sell at walmart if they wanted my money (100% exactly what happens already)

Absolutely. You get to vote with your wallet. Nobody can force you to buy anything you don't want to.

yeah you know some (bad word) people will use that contact form to complain about the steam thing.

Man, I sure hope not. That's the last thing that dude needs right now. Of course, it's bound to happen though...

 

[lexluthermiester]

GOG is another account to manage. I already have Steam, why wouldn't I buy it there and avoid creating another account?

Two reasons; One, setting up a GOG account is easy-breezy, and two, while they promote Galaxy, you don't have to use it. All titles are available direct download. You download the game and install it to the directory of your choice.

However, supporting GOG (and thereby supporting their vision of DRM free software, and you know I don't like DRM any more than you) is a good reason to create an account with them...

Yes, exactly! And their DRM free marketplace is the most worthy of etailers to support! You own your games outright and have the liberty to use them as you wish and mod them as you wish for as long as you wish. Steam allows some of that on limited levels with some titles and no-one else comes close. In my book, for PC gaming, GOG has no peers. They are in a high-bar class of their own!

 

[moproblems99]

Two reasons; One, setting up a GOG account is easy-breezy, and two, while they promote Galaxy, you don't have to use it. All titles are available direct download. You download the game and install it to the directory of your choice.

What I find hilarious about this is that these are pretty much the same steps to install Metro.

 

[Shambles1980]

i dont think people understand that they should offer consumers a reason to use their platform other than forced exclusivity..
If you want me to use your stuff so you can make money then you need to give me a reason to do that which isnt black mail.

 

[Prince Valiant]

I'm struggling to come up with a viable solution to the issue, though. See, my problem with not wanting a bunch of launchers is because I don't want to have to keep track of a bunch of gaming accounts. I signed up for Steam over 10 years ago, and that was one... and Steam does a great job making things easier for me. I no longer have to swap discs (or even have physical discs anymore, which take up physical space and are prone to damage), track down updates, or even wait on installing a bunch of games if I ever reinstall everything (sure, I have a limited download speed, but it's not slow, and at least Steam rolls on from one to the next automatically without me sitting at the computer swapping discs).

Then I think back to how things were before Steam, or around the time I started using Steam. How many games did I have separate accounts I had to keep track of for each one? I remember logging in to Battlefield 2, 2142, multiple versions of GunZ, some offbrand MMO called Silkroad... I recall Bad Company 2 being tied to my Steam account though, so theoretically if all those games were on Steam, they would ideally work the same way - one account to rule them all. Even with a few different launchers, at least I wouldn't have a whole bunch of accounts for a bunch of different games. Every Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc type game with any kind of stats or ranking system would likely require an account to keep track of.

We had Gamespy for that and most games had LAN and direct IP/self-hosting options.

 

[lexluthermiester]

What I find hilarious about this is that these are pretty much the same steps to install Metro.

No, it isn't. Exodus will require the Epic client which requires an internet connection for installation validation on a per instance basis(IE every time the game runs) and the client must be running at the same time the game is and if the dev/publisher desides to end game support or shuts down, you lose your game permenantly with no recourse. With GOG, none of those requirements/restrictions apply. You pay for and download the game, install it and play away to your heart's content. No client requirements, no internet connection, no validation, no time limits and no risk of losing access when the dev/publisher EOL's the game or goes out of business. You own the games you pay for for life. This is why DRM free is so important. GOG respects your rights.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Not a good example. Try a AAA title that's actually been released.

In... epic store there is no AAA for now... lulz

but I guess the pattern will be the same. Guess what store did I prefer in this case?

 

[lexluthermiester]

In... epic store there is no AAA for now... lulz

Far enough, but let's try one that is on all three, GOG, Stream and Epic; Darksiders 3
https://www.gog.com/game/darksiders_iii
$60
https://store.steampowered.com/app/606280/Darksiders_III/
$60(currently on sale for $42)
https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/darksiders3/home
$60

GOG and Steam both have the Deluxe version which contains the very excellent OST;
https://www.gog.com/game/darksiders_iii_deluxe_edition
$80
https://store.steampowered.com/sub/286843/
$80(currently on sale for $56)
Epic does not have the Deluxe version of the game at all.

While Steam currently has the title on sale, GOG recently had it on sale too and at a slightly better price(I got the Deluxe version for $53).
The sales come and go but this is just one example of how Epic is trailing behind.

Metro Exodus is going to be good, but it's not going to motivate a lot of us to switch over. I'd rather not have the game at all, than have to deal with Epic's crap client and DRM.

 

[rtwjunkie]

What I find hilarious about this is that these are pretty much the same steps to install Metro.

Not understanding what you are talking about there. What lex is saying is that the Galaxy launcher is unnecessary. Once you buy the game install it and run it from a shortcut, you are never signing into anything. The only time you sign in is to the store to purchase and then download the game installer.

 

[moproblems99]

Not understanding what you are talking about there.

Why would the average person here complaining about multiple launchers actually bother to download a standalone installer? I just don't see them getting around to clicking an icon other than Steam. Or maybe even figuring out how not to install Galaxy.

Then you look at that, and say: Holy Crap, it's so much easier to just buy it from Epic and be done with it.

 

[Shambles1980]

well at least they can rely on those who will give them money for nothing i guess.
genuinely no point explaining it again but i will try.

As a consumer i have a choice, I chose to only use 1 launcher. That happens to be steam. This is not because i am lazy or cannot do something it is a choice i made and i am entitled to make, If you as epic want me to change to your launcher you need to Offer me something to make it worth my time, You want my money then i want something of value in return.
Bribing developers/publishers Does not Gain me anything, it does not gain ANY consumer anything, It only serves Epic and the publishers/devs.
To try and instill false value to your platform by bribing publishers and devs is not adding value.
If publishers have an issue with steam and their pricing structure, then that may be an issue but it is not my issue.

Like i said if others are willing to bend over and do what any publisher/dev/platform wants you to do then thats your call, i wont insult you because of your choice which you are entitled to make.
But it is quite sad that the argument for using epic amounts to the current game publishers meme of"you all have mobile phones dont you whats the problem?"
its quite telling of how the gaming industry has arrived at the situation it is in today.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Why would the average person here complaining about multiple launchers actually bother to download a standalone installer? I just don't see them getting around to clicking an icon other than Steam. Or maybe even figuring out how not to install Galaxy.

Then you look at that, and say: Holy Crap, it's so much easier to just buy it from Epic and be done with it.

There is no “figuring out” how to not install galaxy. You have to decide to install it. There is no installer software for the games. Its just an executable and the data files, just like you would find on a dvd or cd of old. People do it because the advantage of always owning the game outright, versus renting a license is huge.

I’m merely extolling the virtues of GOG. For me there is no question like you ask about, since I have also installed Epic. I prefer GOG, but also have no problem installing another launcher if it means getting a game/games I want.

 

[moproblems99]

it is not my issue

Unfortunately, it is your issue or we wouldn't have this thread. The other side of the coin, is that other people are tired of Steam dictating terms to everyone. For better or worse, this is a step in breaking that.

I’m merely extolling the virtues of GOG.

I love GOG too. Most of my games come from there, it is my preferred choice.

 

[Shambles1980]

nope.. genuinely not my issue.. never intended to buy the game on release any way so waiting for it to come out on steam wont bother me.
Listing it for sale on steam and then changing it to a epic exclusive near release date is genuinly a dick move. Still as stated thats not my issue.

As stated before the reason people stopped torrenting music is because itunes made it simple and accessible in one place.
Im pretty sure steam had a similar effect on pc games. And if people decide may as well download games els where rather than have to struggle through multiple launchers that wont be my issue either.

 

[c2DDragon]

As stated before the reason people stopped torrenting music is because itunes made it simple and accessible in one place.
Im pretty sure steam had a similar effect on pc games. And if people decide may as well download games els where rather than have to struggle through multiple launchers that wont be my issue either.

People stopped torrenting music In which universe ?
People still download games/music/movies, VPNs sales exploded and there is now X number of VPNs.
Lambda people stopped because of majors prosecutions and the fines to pay after being flashed torrenting "insert labeled famous singer/band".

Pirate gamers can find a game good and decide to buy and be able to use online features or just to support the devs (for real it happens a lot in the world I live).
Denuvo is a joke now, Resident Evil 2 was available in 1 week. Just Cause 4 (what a crap) was available super fast.
I don't know where you came to think iTunes had an effect on pirates. Same for Steam, cracked games are easier than ever to install now (repacks already cracked).

For sure Steam permits to have cheap games. An effect you can actually see is CD keys bounding games to a library make them impossible to resell. Used video games market has been killed by Steam.

 

[Shambles1980]

where as "every one" didnt stop torrenting music More than you care to imagine did when i tunes came around.
it was easier and safer to buy songs on itunes have them in one place and be able to access them easily, compared to downloading them from places like napster where you never knew what you were going to get, or if the songs you wanted were even available.

there is a value in convenience that I tunes and steam provided (steam did not always have that value as it used to suck and so i refused to use it) But as of right now Steam has a convenience value and epic just has a forced exclusive that provides no value to me only for devs/publishers.
And if they don't provide me a value to make me switch from steam (because i wont be using multiple launchers) Then i just wont use their launcher..

for me the only real way epic can get me to move over is to provide 100% exactly what steam provides me Including all my steam games that i already have, AND then they have to offer something extra to make me move over. Trying to strong arm me over by making a game exclusive is going to work as well for epic as it has for play station with the last of us or god of war.. I don't care that i wont play those games, and i guess they don't care that they never get any of my money when they make exclusives.

But its still a dick move to bait and switch, And im pretty sure Paying some one to be exclusive to you after production of the prooduct when its already been advertised as being available is called anti competitive you can ask Intel about that one, Although that example would have been the dev/publisher paying steam to only have there game for sale its still the same basic premise..

Offering publishers a better % rate is one thing, but paying them to be exclusive genuinely is anti competative, however im sure they have clever lawyers who word contracts very specifically so it technically isn't anti competitive