Yet Another Speculative Malfunction: Intel Reveals New Side-Channel Attack, Advises Disabling Hyper-Threading Below 8th, 9th Gen CPUs

[R-T-B]

Cause its based on prediction mechanism, which gave Intel CPU that "edge" over AMD. Prediction is sorta speculative, isnt it? Its just a guess (naming, not how it works).

Speculative execution is utilized in all modern CPUs. This is not Intel's secret "edge" sauce.

I am definitely not a fan of the black box inside Zen approach, though.

Me neither. The only thing I like about Intel ME over AMD pse is that one beast has been decently reverse engineered, AMDs is more or less a complete black box.

To be fair no one has editors or proofreaders these days. Or know how to spell "hippothetical".

You... are sadly correct. Please let me hate you for it, if only out of principle...

 

[Mescalamba]

Speculative execution is utilized in all modern CPUs. This is not Intel's secret "edge" sauce.



Me neither. The only thing I like about Intel ME over AMD pse is that one beast has been decently reverse engineered, AMDs is more or less a complete black box.



You... are sadly correct. Please let me hate you for it, if only out of principle...

It is Intel secret sauce. Difference is that AMD has just one simple layer of prediction, while Intel has quite deep prediction and that deep (long) prediction is source of both performance and majority of these low level hacks.

 

[InVasMani]

You can disable cpu caching and etc.. in bios.

You can also take a hammer to your Intel CPU to disable it.

 

[trparky]

A few percentage points of performance loss here, a few percentage points of performance loss there, sprinkle in a few more percentage points of performance loss and then what? Will we be back in the performance days of the old Sandy Bridge days? If suddenly we're looking at some real loss in performance, someone's head is going to roll inside the halls of Intel.

Granted, the performance loss won't be as noticeable for us average users but if you're operating a data center or cloud computing infrastructure the likes of Microsoft Azure, Amazon AWS, etc. then Intel is going to be in for a world of hurt. Big companies tend to not take "oh well, you lost some performance" as nicely as you or I. If a cloud computing infrastructure suddenly needs to install 25% more computing hardware due to performance loss that's going to result in them having to use more power and get more/bigger air conditioners which of course is going to require more power which of course means more cost and more expensive services for the end user. Not good at all.

 

[Mescalamba]

A few percentage points of performance loss here, a few percentage points of performance loss there, sprinkle in a few more percentage points of performance loss and then what? Will we be back in the performance days of the old Sandy Bridge days? If suddenly we're looking at some real loss in performance, someone's head is going to roll inside the halls of Intel.

Granted, the performance loss won't be as noticeable for us average users but if you're operating a data center or cloud computing infrastructure the likes of Microsoft Azure, Amazon AWS, etc. then Intel is going to be in for a world of hurt. Big companies tend to not take "oh well, you lost some performance" as nicely as you or I. If a cloud computing infrastructure suddenly needs to install 25% more computing hardware due to performance loss that's going to result in them having to use more power and get more/bigger air conditioners which of course is going to require more power which of course means more cost and more expensive services for the end user. Not good at all.

With everything enabled and HT disabled, I think even regular user will notice performance drop.

That said, if someone is gamer and doesnt expose themselves to any threat, there is no reason to actually care about these attacks more than any kind of malware, virus, trojan and so on.. Its just not really important for normal user or player.

 

[R-T-B]

It is Intel secret sauce. Difference is that AMD has just one simple layer of prediction, while Intel has quite deep prediction and that deep (long) prediction is source of both performance and majority of these low level hacks.

Citation? Everything I know about CPUs including Ryzen has indicated quite the opposite. Ryzen uses a friggin neural net for prediction if we believe AMD marketing, which would be arguably more conplex.

 

[RichF]

if someone is gamer and doesnt expose themselves to any threat

Going onto the Internet with a computer that can be remotely hacked is exposure.

I am not moved by all the comments that downplay these various vulnerabilities. We can debate these specific ones but should also assume that there are more. There is a lack of oversight to prevent bad security design. It's ridiculous to have to rely on random third parties like Google and CTS to find out what the vulnerabilities are. We have serious vulnerabilities going back to Nehalem and are just now being informed about them?

There is a lot wrong with the situation. We need to have a government agency devoted to providing security to the public, one that is completely walled off from spycraft and policing — with the exception of the spy agencies being required to provide all data on vulnerabilities to said security research/publicity agency. Given the massive breaches of things that the public is supposed to trust, like credit raters, things are not working with the laissez-faire approach. Congress needs to change its mindset, where it's a scandal for "private" e-mails to be handled "insecurely" and, simultaneously, the public is patronizingly lectured by Wired writers that they should never expect to have the slightest shred of privacy for e-mail nor anything else. This kind of monarchic mentality is failing in our globalized networked world.

 

[HTC]

It is Intel secret sauce. Difference is that AMD has just one simple layer of prediction, while Intel has quite deep prediction and that deep (long) prediction is source of both performance and majority of these low level hacks.

The way i understood it was that AMD has some sort of security checks while doing this prediction thing but Intel defers the security checks to after the prediction thing. Did i understand correctly? Dunno: perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify.

AMD's approach isn't perfect or it wouldn't be affected by Spectre-like attacks but it's certainly better then Intel's because there's quite a few of these speculation based attacks Intel's susceptible to while AMD's not.

 

[trparky]

It doesn't hurt that since AMD's Zen architecture is new when compared to Intel's Core architecture. AMD has the benefit of new thinking, designing in an era where security is taken more seriously.

 

[RichF]

It doesn't hurt that since AMD's Zen architecture is new when compared to Intel's Core architecture. AMD has the benefit of new thinking, designing in an era where security is taken more seriously.

Security wasn't taken seriously when Nehalem was designed? I assure you that it was by some important entities/people. People weren't born yesterday. Security has always been recognized as serious by anyone with a decent IQ — back to the origins of human society.

In fact, for all we know, baked-in vulnerabilities were seen as seriously useful — perhaps a bit like AMD's modern black box inside Zen. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the US has custom vulnerabilities added to products. We find out about the old ones and are encouraged to buy the latest ones. Everyone wins except ordinary people. Perhaps in a world without obvious spycraft this would be paranoid thinking.

Since we don't have the kind of agency/agenda that I outlined above, we are treated to the "who knows?" laissez-faire lifestyle, where people like Snowden give us occasional glimpses of what's behind the mirror. If we were to gain said agency and it were to remain uncompromised then we would be in a far better position to know what the state of security is.

 

[HTC]

It doesn't hurt that since AMD's Zen architecture is new when compared to Intel's Core architecture. AMD has the benefit of new thinking, designing in an era where security is taken more seriously.

Correct me if i'm wrong but Bulldozer isn't affected either, or is it? And what about Athlon / Phenom CPUs?

 

[R-T-B]

I am not moved by all the comments that downplay these various vulnerabilities. We can debate these specific ones but should also assume that there are more. There is a lack of oversight to prevent bad security design. It's ridiculous to have to rely on random third parties like Google and CTS to find out what the vulnerabilities are. We have serious vulnerabilities going back to Nehalem and are just now being informed about them

It is more these aren't really "flaws" per say, but using the design as intended in incredibly clever ways to execute timing based inference attacks.

Of course it took a while, this whole category of attacks is fricking bizzarely genius. It took a long time just for someone to think to try it.

Correct me if i'm wrong but Bulldozer isn't affected either, or is it? And what about Athlon / Phenom CPUs?

Spectre class attacks affect both. I am unsure about Meltdown beyond ARM and Intel. MDS is Intel-only.

There is a lot wrong with the situation. We need to have a government agency devoted to providing security to the public, one that is completely walled off from spycraft and policing — with the exception of the spy agencies being required to provide all data on vulnerabilities to said security research/publicity agency. Given the massive breaches of things that the public is supposed to trust, like credit raters, things are not working with the laissez-faire approach. Congress needs to change its mindset, where it's a scandal for "private" e-mails to be handled "insecurely" and, simultaneously, the public is patronizingly lectured by Wired writers that they should never expect to have the slightest shred of privacy for e-mail nor anything else. This kind of monarchic mentality is failing in our globalized networked world.

I really do not see this helping at all.

 

[trparky]

Security has always been recognized as serious by anyone with a decent IQ

Um... there you go, you mentioned "with a decent IQ". The problem that I see with Intel is the performance at all costs thinking brought about by marketing drones and C-Level idiots. The designers may have wanted more security and they may have well been able to do so if not for the marketing and stuffed suits in the board room.

 

[RichF]

It is more these aren't really "flaws" per say, but using the design as intended in incredibly clever ways to execute timing based inference attacks.

Of course it took a while, this whole category of attacks is fricking bizzarely genius. It took a long time just for someone to think to try it.

Perhaps. Or, it could be that they're seen as having outlived their usefulness and/or there are better vulnerabilities, like the Zen black box, out there. Remember how Microsoft so aggressively pushed Windows 10 on people? It is in the interest of spycraft to get people onto the better vacuum cleaners. It "makes" money. Chip sellers sell new chips. Motherboard makers sell new boards. Stores get sales. States get taxes. Et cetera. That's just one angle that provides the incentive.

The fact that we're in this shabby laissez-faire state suggests that it's in the interest of those in power.

trparky, the importance of security isn't something people just discovered.

 

[trparky]

I don't fault the designers of Nehalem, I put the fault on the marketing departments along with the C-Level people at the top. They wanted more performance at all costs so as to make more profit. Unfortunately the thinking process of people in marketing doesn't mesh with the thinking processes of the people doing the real hard science.

Now that we've seen that that kind of marketing thinking is not a good idea and that performance at all costs is a really bad way of doing things, perhaps we won't be seeing the same kinds of exploits in future architectures.

 

[R-T-B]

Perhaps.

There's no perhaps about it. These aren't backdoors and they'd function horribly as such due to the minimal bandwidth provided by their nonnetworked, timing based inference nature. All the attacks share that as a trait, except this latest one improves it into the realm of usability vs near uselessness (you cam use privelege escalation to install something more useful).

The AMD blackbox psp is not new. We've had Intel ME for like, forever. If the NSA wants toys it'd use these and there isn't even evidence to support that.

I don't fault the designers of Nehalem, I put the fault on the marketing departments along with the C-Level people at the top. They wanted more performance at all costs so as to make more profit. Unfortunately the thinking process of people in marketing more often than not does not often mesh with the thinking processes of the people doing the real hard science.

I don't blame anyone. This is literally a way of attacking that is incredibly bizzare, and the world has never seen it before. You simply could not have seen it coming and the only reason Intel is the first casualty is size.

 

[trparky]

I don't blame anyone.

I do, then again my bias against marketing and C-level drones could be showing in my posts here. I generally have no use for the people at the top, they tend to get in the way of people who really do want to make the world a better place.

 

[R-T-B]

I do, then again my bias against marketing and C-level drones could be showing in my posts here.

I think it may.

 

[RichF]

The AMD blackbox psp is not new. We've had Intel ME for like, forever.

Bulldozer, Piledriver, Phenom? As for evidence, we are just now finding out about vulnerabilities that go back to Nehalem.

It's hardly the case, particularly in our very laissez-faire state, that we have all data/knowledge about the state of security, the kind of knowledge that our representatives have.

You simply could not have seen it coming

Citation needed. This is simply speculation.

And, if you don't think the agency I described, that would be devoted to providing security for the public instead of merely spycraft and policing, will do anything significant to enhance the situation what do you propose? Continuing to rely on random third parties with their own agendas like Google and CTS? Hoping that no one but saints have the knowledge of vulnerabilities that have been around so long.

The black box AMD Zen thing is something you said you don't like. Well, without my agency to publicize the state of security for the public and have oversight mechanisms to ensure better practices, how are you going to do anything about it? Complaining isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

[R-T-B]

Bulldozer, Piledriver, Phenom?

Piledriver I believe uses the PSP for memory init, and it started there. Bulldozer I am unsure of, and Phenom had nothing but the fact remains I have found no evidence to support the existence of a backdoor in Intel ME via wireshark and reverse engineering the binaries. You'd think if it was anywhere it'd be there, were the NSA a factor at all.

More here for my thoughts and background:

ASRock Z370/Z390 Taichi (and some others, actively modding!) Firmware with Intel Management Engine Disabled

THIS PROJECT IS PRESENTLY ON HOLD. This is simply 1.80 "Instant Flash" firmware for the Z370 Taichi (and now with help from @Mork_vom_Ork, the Z270 SuperCarrier v2.40) straight from ASRock stock unmodifed (minus some sig checks disabled) other than the Intel Management Engine firmware being...

www.techpowerup.com

This project is on hold, yes, but I stay sharp. Clients pay me for commercial "firmware nuetering." I daresay paranoia works to my advantage but that is no reason to encourage it.

 

[RichF]

Piledriver I believe uses the PSP for memory init, and it started there. Bulldozer I am unsure of anf Phenom had nothing but the fact remains I have found no evidence to support the existence of a backdoor in Intel ME via wireshark and reverse engineering the binaries. You'd think if it was anywhere it'd be there, were the NSA a factor at all.

More here for my thoughts and background:

ASRock Z370/Z390 Taichi (and some others, actively modding!) Firmware with Intel Management Engine Disabled

THIS PROJECT IS PRESENTLY ON HOLD. This is simply 1.80 "Instant Flash" firmware for the Z370 Taichi (and now with help from @Mork_vom_Ork, the Z270 SuperCarrier v2.40) straight from ASRock stock unmodifed (minus some sig checks disabled) other than the Intel Management Engine firmware being...

www.techpowerup.com

We had no evidence of these vulnerabilities that existed since Nehalem until now. Didn't Snowden leak stuff about hardware being added surreptitiously to routers and other equipment? Wasn't there something about an encryption standard being intentionally broken during the design process? Also, I wasn't just talking about Intel ME. I was talking about AMD's Zen black box, the very same one you just said you are unhappy about. What are you going to do about it other than hope?

The bottom line is that we can be satisfied with hoping that our interests are being represented or we can demand security that we are able to fully trust, because the knowledge and oversight are mandated and delivered. The establishment of the EPA massively reduced pollution. We could have, though, been content with the promises made by the polluters.

 

[R-T-B]

We had no evidence of these vulnerabilities that existed since Nehalem until now.

Because as I stated, they use an incredibly ingenious way to attack the processor. I'm still flabberghasted anyone ever thought to try this, ever.

Didn't Snowden leak stuff about hardware being added surreptitiously to routers and other equipment?

Routers yes and I HAVE seen evidence for that. Some has even been in the news. Use one of the open firmwares, is my advice. Also, encrypted dns over 1.1.1.1 or similar. You need this if you want to even pretend the government isn't logging you.

Wasn't there something about an encryption standard being intentionally broken during the design process?

AES may have a backdoor, I assume you mean... and yes. I'd try others where possible. It also could be a reference to the long broken DES standard though.

What are you going to do about it other than hope?

What I've been doing: Educating, providing knowledge tools and where needed, services.

The bottom line is that we can be satisfied with hoping that our interests are being represented or we can demand security that we are able to fully trust, because the knowledge and oversight are mandated and delivered. The establishment of the EPA massively reduced pollution. We could have, though, been content with the promises made by the polluters.

Yes, and I'd be happy with a simple "citizens privacy" government watchdog. What you were describing sounded much, much bigger and either way would never have foreseen Spectre. I guess I agree with the sentiment but not the conclusion.

 

[HTC]

Some preliminary tests @ Phoronix, without HT disabled.

They'll be releasing benches since Spectre / Meltdown in the coming days.

 

[matar]

Been buy intel CPUs since my first build 1998 but my next build will be AMD sorry intel you lost you intel.

 

[R0H1T]

Some preliminary tests @ Phoronix, without HT disabled.

They'll be releasing benches since Spectre / Meltdown in the coming days.

Actually they've done a bunch of tests & they all look bad for Intel, albeit on Linux ~ https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=mds-zombieload-mit&num=10

Let's see how some defending Intel respond to this