• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD Files a Patent for Cooling of 3D Stacked Memory

AleksandarK

News Editor
Staff member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
2,651 (0.99/day)
Scaling and manufacturing of ever shrinking semiconductor devices is becoming more challenging as smaller nodes are introduced. As we have approached 7 nanometers, economies of scale are becoming more influential than scales of manufacturing. For example, the development of the 7 nm node development cost more than 3 billion USD, while smaller nodes are expected to see that price cross the 5 billion USD mark. So given that we are approaching the limit where we can't squeeze more transistors in two-dimensional space without huge economical impact, we have to utilize another dimension in order to keep performance improvements coming.

AMD has filed a patent for cooling a 3D stacked memory with thermo-electric coolers - TECs, also known as Peltier devices. Being that TECs are made out of P-type and N-type semiconductors, they can easily be integrated into existing silicon manufacturing methods and controlled like a regular device. The process AMD has patented basically describes how to insert the TEC between memory and logic devices, where it draws heat from either logic or memory with each side being able to dissipate the heat. That effect is possible due to nature of TEC, where the direction of heat flow is changed inverting the voltage.



As you can see, this is the high-level overview of what AMD proposes, with constant measurements of both the logic stack and memory stack, to determine which one is hotter. The hotter side gets heat drawn away from it to the colder side, which can dissipate that heat.

This solution would be useful in devices that are similar to Intel's Foveros, where you have a memory die on top of logic:


However, thermoelectric cooling is not free - it does consume power, and generates some heat on its own, so we'll have to wait and see whether this can actually turn into a useful technology.

You can read the whole patent here.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
8,219 (2.16/day)
Location
SE Michigan
System Name Dumbass
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard ASUS TUF gaming B650
Cooling Artic Liquid Freezer 2 - 420mm
Memory G.Skill Sniper 32gb DDR5 6000
Video Card(s) GreenTeam 4070 ti super 16gb
Storage Samsung EVO 500gb & 1Tb, 2tb HDD, 500gb WD Black
Display(s) 1x Nixeus NX_EDG27, 2x Dell S2440L (16:9)
Case Phanteks Enthoo Primo w/8 140mm SP Fans
Audio Device(s) onboard (realtek?) - SPKRS:Logitech Z623 200w 2.1
Power Supply Corsair HX1000i
Mouse Steeseries Esports Wireless
Keyboard Corsair K100
Software windows 10 H
Benchmark Scores https://i.imgur.com/aoz3vWY.jpg?2
Integrated Cooling. Will still need external cooling but not as dramatic as water cooling.
 
D

Deleted member 158293

Guest
Looks interesting, can't wait for 512 core cube CPUs!
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
1,064 (0.17/day)
Location
Montreal
System Name Aryzen / Sairikiki / Tesseract
Processor 5800x / i7 920@3.73 / 5800x
Motherboard Steel Legend B450M / GB EX58-UDP4 / Steel Legend B550M
Cooling Mugen 5 / Pure Rock / Glacier One 240
Memory Corsair Something 16 / Corsair Something 12 / G.Skill 32
Video Card(s) AMD 6800XT / AMD 6750XT / Sapphire 7800XT
Storage Way too many drives...
Display(s) LG 332GP850-B / Sony w800b / Sony X90J
Case EVOLV X / Carbide 540 / Carbide 280x
Audio Device(s) SB ZxR + GSP 500 / board / Denon X1700h + ELAC Uni-Fi 2 + Senn 6XX
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME GX-750 / Corsair HX750 / Seasonic Focus PX-650
Mouse G700 / none / G602
Keyboard G910
Software w11 64
Benchmark Scores I don't play benchmarks...
This is certainly not going to do any wanders for power consumption, but it's not like you have many other options for cooling stacked chips...
 
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
97 (0.02/day)
Anytime I see patent's today I always find myself thinking "Should you be able to patent that?"

Patent putting a peltier cooler between dies?

Patent putting a water pump on top of the waterblock?

Patent a rectangle with rounded corners?

Patent putting cheese in between the meats instead of on top?

I really think the engineers and scientists should be part of the patent approval process to deem whether or not a patent should exist for something.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
10,845 (1.74/day)
Location
Austin Texas
System Name stress-less
Processor 9800X3D @ 5.42GHZ
Motherboard MSI PRO B650M-A Wifi
Cooling Thermalright Phantom Spirit EVO
Memory 64GB DDR5 6400 1:1 CL30-36-36-76 FCLK 2200
Video Card(s) RTX 4090 FE
Storage 2TB WD SN850, 4TB WD SN850X
Display(s) Alienware 32" 4k 240hz OLED
Case Jonsbo Z20
Audio Device(s) Yes
Power Supply Corsair SF750
Mouse DeathadderV2 X Hyperspeed
Keyboard 65% HE Keyboard
Software Windows 11
Benchmark Scores They're pretty good, nothing crazy.

HTC

Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,664 (0.76/day)
Location
Portugal
System Name HTC's System
Processor Ryzen 5 5800X3D
Motherboard Asrock Taichi X370
Cooling NH-C14, with the AM4 mounting kit
Memory G.Skill Kit 16GB DDR4 F4 - 3200 C16D - 16 GTZB
Video Card(s) Sapphire Pulse 6600 8 GB
Storage 1 Samsung NVMe 960 EVO 250 GB + 1 3.5" Seagate IronWolf Pro 6TB 7200RPM 256MB SATA III
Display(s) LG 27UD58
Case Fractal Design Define R6 USB-C
Audio Device(s) Onboard
Power Supply Corsair TX 850M 80+ Gold
Mouse Razer Deathadder Elite
Software Ubuntu 20.04.6 LTS
This may well be the precursor to Zen 3 server CPUs.

In fact, these patents are in the video as well, @ around 19:50 or so.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
6,263 (1.53/day)
Location
Over here, right where you least expect me to be !
System Name The Little One
Processor i5-11320H @4.4GHZ
Motherboard AZW SEI
Cooling Fan w/heat pipes + side & rear vents
Memory 64GB Crucial DDR4-3200 (2x 32GB)
Video Card(s) Iris XE
Storage WD Black SN850X 4TB m.2, Seagate 2TB SSD + SN850 4TB x2 in an external enclosure
Display(s) 2x Samsung 43" & 2x 32"
Case Practically identical to a mac mini, just purrtier in slate blue, & with 3x usb ports on the front !
Audio Device(s) Yamaha ATS-1060 Bluetooth Soundbar & Subwoofer
Power Supply 65w brick
Mouse Logitech MX Master 2
Keyboard Logitech G613 mechanical wireless
Software Windows 10 pro 64 bit, with all the unnecessary background shitzu turned OFF !
Benchmark Scores PDQ
Maybe they will patent it & then be like the fruity boys, just bury it for several years while they decide whether or not to actually make something from it.... That way if anyone else brings up the same or similar idea, they can sue the crap out of them :eek:
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
2,355 (0.46/day)
Location
Right where I want to be
System Name Miami
Processor Ryzen 3800X
Motherboard Asus Crosshair VII Formula
Cooling Ek Velocity/ 2x 280mm Radiators/ Alphacool fullcover
Memory F4-3600C16Q-32GTZNC
Video Card(s) XFX 6900 XT Speedster 0
Storage 1TB WD M.2 SSD/ 2TB WD SN750/ 4TB WD Black HDD
Display(s) DELL AW3420DW / HP ZR24w
Case Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL
Audio Device(s) EVGA Nu Audio
Power Supply Seasonic Prime Gold 1000W+750W
Mouse Corsair Scimitar/Glorious Model O-
Keyboard Corsair K95 Platinum
Software Windows 10 Pro
Anytime I see patent's today I always find myself thinking "Should you be able to patent that?"

Patent putting a peltier cooler between dies?

Patent putting a water pump on top of the waterblock?

Patent a rectangle with rounded corners?

Patent putting cheese in between the meats instead of on top?

I really think the engineers and scientists should be part of the patent approval process to deem whether or not a patent should exist for something.

This is actually a new and novel idea. If someone asked to create a list of 10 ways to cool 3d memory this probably wouldn't even be on the list. I agree with everything else.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
2,388 (0.62/day)
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia USA
System Name Home Brewed
Processor i9-7900X and i7-8700K
Motherboard ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme & ASUS Prime Z-370 A
Cooling Corsair 280mm AIO & Thermaltake Water 3.0
Memory 64GB DDR4-3000 GSKill RipJaws-V & 32GB DDR4-3466 GEIL Potenza
Video Card(s) 2X-GTX-1080 SLI & 2 GTX-1070Ti 8GB G1 Gaming in SLI
Storage Both have 2TB HDDs for storage, 480GB SSDs for OS, and 240GB SSDs for Steam Games
Display(s) ACER 28" B286HK 4K & Samsung 32" 1080P
Case NZXT Source 540 & Rosewill Rise Chassis
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply Corsair RM1000 & Corsair RM850
Mouse Generic
Keyboard Razer Blackwidow Tournament & Corsair K90
Software Win-10 Professional
Benchmark Scores yes
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
854 (0.30/day)
Location
Italy
Processor i7 2600K
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/Gen 3
Cooling ZeroTherm FZ120
Memory G.Skill Ripjaws 4x4GB DDR3
Video Card(s) MSI GTX 1060 6G Gaming X
Storage Samsung 830 Pro 256GB + WD Caviar Blue 1TB
Display(s) Samsung PX2370 + Acer AL1717
Case Antec 1200 v1
Audio Device(s) aune x1s
Power Supply Enermax Modu87+ 800W
Mouse Logitech G403
Keyboard Qpad MK80
They're on fire, i like this.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2016
Messages
454 (0.15/day)
System Name Sillicon Nightmares
Processor Intel i7 9700KF 5ghz (5.1ghz 4 core load, no avx offset), 4.7ghz ring, 1.412vcore 1.3vcio 1.264vcsa
Motherboard Asus Z390 Strix F
Cooling DEEPCOOL Gamer Storm CAPTAIN 360
Memory 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB (B-Die) 3600 14-14-14-28 1t, tRFC 220 tREFI 65535, tFAW 16, 1.545vddq
Video Card(s) ASUS GTX 1060 Strix 6GB XOC, Core: 2202-2240, Vcore: 1.075v, Mem: 9818mhz (Sillicon Lottery Jackpot)
Storage Samsung 840 EVO 1TB SSD, WD Blue 1TB, Seagate 3TB, Samsung 970 Evo Plus 512GB
Display(s) BenQ XL2430 1080p 144HZ + (2) Samsung SyncMaster 913v 1280x1024 75HZ + A Shitty TV For Movies
Case Deepcool Genome ROG Edition
Audio Device(s) Bunta Sniff Speakers From The Tip Edition With Extra Kenwoods
Power Supply Corsair AX860i/Cable Mod Cables
Mouse Logitech G602 Spilled Beer Edition
Keyboard Dell KB4021
Software Windows 10 x64
Benchmark Scores 13543 Firestrike (3dmark.com/fs/22336777) 601 points CPU-Z ST 37.4ns AIDA Memory
Looks interesting, can't wait for 512 core cube CPUs!
no point using cpus at all at that point, just use a gpu
 

silentbogo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
5,557 (1.37/day)
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
System Name WS#1337
Processor Ryzen 7 5700X3D
Motherboard ASUS X570-PLUS TUF Gaming
Cooling Xigmatek Scylla 240mm AIO
Memory 64GB DDR4-3600(4x16)
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 3070 Gaming X Trio
Storage ADATA Legend 2TB
Display(s) Samsung Viewfinity Ultra S6 (34" UW)
Case ghetto CM Cosmos RC-1000
Audio Device(s) ALC1220
Power Supply SeaSonic SSR-550FX (80+ GOLD)
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Modecom Volcano Blade (Kailh choc LP)
VR HMD Google dreamview headset(aka fancy cardboard)
Software Windows 11, Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
TEC elements still need to be cooled, and when it's sandwiched between layers, something is gonna get cooled and something - heated.
I think now I'm starting to like the old idea of liquid cooling w/ inter-layer vias.
 
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
343 (0.10/day)
Location
Perth , West Australia
System Name schweinestalle
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 3700 X
Motherboard Asus Prime - Pro X 570 + Asus PCI -E AC68 Dual Band Wi-Fi Adapter
Cooling Standard Air
Memory Kingston HyperX 2 x 16 gb DDR 4 3200mhz
Video Card(s) AMD Radeon 5700 XT 8 GB Strix
Storage Intel SSD 240 gb Speed Demon & WD 240 SSD Blue & WD 250 SSD & WD Green 500gb SSD & Seagate 1 TB Sata
Display(s) Asus XG 32 V ROG
Case Corsair AIR ATX
Audio Device(s) Realtech standard
Power Supply Corsair 850 Modular
Mouse CM Havoc
Keyboard Corsair Cherry Mechanical
Software Win 10
Benchmark Scores Unigine_Superposition 4K ultra 7582
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
1,162 (0.20/day)
Location
I live in Norway
Processor R9 5800x3d | R7 3900X | 4800H | 2x Xeon gold 6142
Motherboard Asrock X570M | AB350M Pro 4 | Asus Tuf A15
Cooling Air | Air | duh laptop
Memory 64gb G.skill SniperX @3600 CL16 | 128gb | 32GB | 192gb
Video Card(s) RTX 4080 |Quadro P5000 | RTX2060M
Storage Many drives
Display(s) AW3423dwf.
Case Jonsbo D41
Power Supply Corsair RM850x
Mouse g502 Lightspeed
Keyboard G913 tkl
Software win11, proxmox
TEC elements still need to be cooled, and when it's sandwiched between layers, something is gonna get cooled and something - heated.
I think now I'm starting to like the old idea of liquid cooling w/ inter-layer vias.

I think it's viable for IE the I/O die, imagine having 4gb of L4 cache on the I/O die achieving 40ns latencies, you've effectively killed all drawbacks of having seperate I/O die, all the benefits.
also the power consumption of such a configuration isn't too horrible to make it too costly with said solution.

I cannot see a high performance cpu core being in a stacked environment personally.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
622 (0.09/day)
Location
Oak Ridge, TN
System Name BorgX79
Processor i7-3930k 6/12cores@4.4GHz
Motherboard Sabertoothx79
Cooling Capitan 360
Memory Muhskin DDR3-1866
Video Card(s) Sapphire R480 8GB
Storage Chronos SSD
Display(s) 3x VW266H
Case Ching Mien 600
Audio Device(s) Realtek
Power Supply Cooler Master 1000W Silent Pro
Mouse Logitech G900
Keyboard Rosewill RK-1000
Software Win7x64
The big problem with this is that peltiers are really inefficient.

Liquid sodium/potassium running thru the chips might make it workable, but to pump a watt with a peltier takes several watts.

10A@12v will cool a 5W IR camera to (ambient - 60degrees C), but that's not really a workable solution for something that draws 150W in a package.

Freon would work really well, tho. :)

I'd love to have another gallon of Freon TF...
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
47 (0.02/day)
Anytime I see patent's today I always find myself thinking "Should you be able to patent that?"

Looking at the patent, it seems they've patented the idea of taking excess heat from the memory layters and dumping it into the logic layers.

That probably is something nobody else had thought of, since usually one expects the logic layers to be the hot ones. Look inside your PC: the processor has this huge fan thingy on top of it, but the memory just sits there.
 
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
83 (0.04/day)
Location
Larvik, Norway
If AMD and Samsung are planning on stacking RAM, GPU and CPU for their future mobile processors, it might make sense to transport trapped heat to the PCB. Using the PBC to dissipate heat is very common. Since BGA chips wont allow a thermal pad, they are using the logic layers and connections insted .... just guessing here.
 
Top