TSMC Building a 5nm Fab in Arizona as the U.S. Government Gets Involved

[ARF]

Took a solo road trip to the Grand Canyon 2 years ago. This just makes me want to go back, holy schiit that place was cool.

But, isn't building clean rooms in hot and dusty place much harder and with more requirements than building the same clean rooms in areas with clean air and better temperatures all year round ?

I mean isn't it better to have it in the Northern states ?

 

[bogmali]

If you cannot help yourself from including your political bias when you post, don't do it plain and simple. My one and only warning

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Personal opinion: I think the US is also insulating itself from any military conflict affecting Taiwan. There have been elevated tensions between Taipei and Beijing. Then again, it would take a lot more than just moving TSMC. Quite a few indispensable Taiwan-based companies should spread their manufacturing outside the island, to places such as Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc.

Definitely. The Pentagon is already finding Chinese spy chips in their military hardware. They want to move fast to get everything it can away from China. Taiwan is too close for comfort.

Keep in mind that the USA's military industrial complex supplies a great part of the world with military hardware (e.g. F-35). USA's military partners are counting on USA to keep Chinese espionage at bay and that's really hard to do when China is so good at making fakes and supply chains travel through China.

it is unconfirmed. Doubt that they build super expensive fab in US, where everything is much pricier than in Taiwan, and US gov won't protect it as much as US company.

China thinks it owns Taiwan as per "One China" policy. As China becomes more and more hostile to the rest of the world (and its own people)...it's sowing fear among those people that may not know freedom much longer. Arizona...is out of China's reach. If China does seize Taiwan and all of Taiwan's manufacturing with it, TSMC will have a backstop to grow from.

I mean...AMD/NVIDIA/Apple will probably buy all the wafers out of that fab anyway so it's not like it's a very risky investment. Investing in Taiwan is much, much riskier right now.

 

[sepheronx]

I believe the chips used for their military is already fabricated in USA as is. At least it was for the longest time with even the Intel processor used in the F-22. Only time I dont think it was when my old man was building OHF radar where they have used Czechoslovakian TR modules (sold via a third party company). And that was only for very specific radar models (and it was 1986). Plus those processors used are not 5nm processors either and are usually much larger process as they are refined for heavy use in event of electronic warfare so they are shielded.

I may be behind the times on this info but this is what I usually find. So this FAB plant isn't going to be used for military - they have other fab plants for that. Most countries already do that too like Russia and China where they do not use outside FAB plants to build their necessary processors for military application.

 

[Upgrayedd]

But, isn't building clean rooms in hot and dusty place much harder and with more requirements than building the same clean rooms in areas with clean air and better temperatures all year round ?

I mean isn't it better to have it in the Northern states ?

I don't know why they're building there but the Grand Canyon is beautiful, I can tell you that.

I don't know if fighting dust would be easier than fighting humidity?

 

[Ferrum Master]

Do not mix military into it.

It is rubbish consumer tech to them.

AFAIK. Currently Radiation hardened CPU's are made maximimum on 28nm like SONOS imho UMC made. Depending on the maker. Also x86 is rarely being used by US, i486 being the last, i386 is still used in many Russian military devices as default. They reverse engineered it. Keep in mind, writing pure ASM code to those brings performance acceptable to many tasks... and bullet proof.

Military are the last ones caring about this quarell...

 

[sepheronx]

Do not mix military into it.

It is rubbish consumer tech to them.

AFAIK. Currently Radiation hardened CPU's are made maximimum on 28nm like SONOS imho UMC made. Depending on the maker. Also x86 is rarely being used by US, i486 being the last, i386 is still used in many Russian military devices as default. They reverse engineered it. Keep in mind, writing pure ASM code to those brings performance acceptable to many tasks... and bullet proof.

Military are the last ones caring about this quarell...

I386 isn't used in Russia. They use their own RISC and MIPS processors. Kondiv 32 and 64, Elbrus 2C+, Solo-35.0, etc (anything that is paired with a DSP core). They don't import their processors for military as they use their FAB plant in Zelenograd that can do at best 65nm on specific wafers (200mm) and 45 if done at GS Techopolis. You are mistaking it with India who decided to use older Intel for their Su-30MKI. But that isn't the topic at hand. Just had to point it out.

Edit: but you are correct though in that this is nothing to do with military as I pointed out previously.

 

[Ferrum Master]

@sepheronx

It is used and even in SMP, like navigation system АРБИС... you have to remember, they have the HW, like you mentioned, but rewriting software is even more pain thus there are still things made on x86 for them, prolly could be even stolen from someone. MIPS and RISC are hard to code as not many coders are coming really out of the old SPARC institute... and like ones you can trust on. Also those are way too performant and HOT to be resided mil/space grade device, and they are way to young. It will take years to have a working and tested equipment, without catching fire... but... they catch fire either way... I have no information how radiation hardened are new Russian CPU's despite being on higher tech node, but that does not guarantee anything. They boosted a lot of tech, because of tech exchange deal with China, but you have to take all the achievements with a bucket salt, no a cistern of salt and ignore all the links and media reports, because of corruption and propganda, you an only trust things you see with your own two eyes about them.

You are right about Indians, but the obvious why is the localization and they use different arsenal and components for their Su-30MKI. Who will code for those Russian CPU? Indians? How? They chose their solutions backported from earlier prolly HAL Tejas for their radar/rocket/navigation/comms etc variety. IMHO their export variants reside on x86 for sure.

 

[sepheronx]

@sepheronx

It is used and even in SMP, like navigation system АРБИС... you have to remember, they have the HW, like you mentioned, but rewriting software is even more pain thus there are still things made on x86 for them, prolly could be even stolen from someone. MIPS and RISC are hard to code as not many coders are coming really out of the old SPARC institute... and like ones you can trust on. Also those are way too performant and HOT to be resided mil/space grade device, and they are way to young. It will take years to have a working and tested equipment, without catching fire... but... they catch fire either way... I have no information how radiation hardened are new Russian CPU's despite being on higher tech node, but that does not guarantee anything. They boosted a lot of tech, because of tech exchange deal with China, but you have to take all the achievements with a bucket salt, no a cistern of salt and ignore all the links and media reports, because of corruption and propganda, you an only trust things you see with your own two eyes about them.

You are right about Indians, but the obvious why is the localization and they use different arsenal and components for their Su-30MKI. Who will code for those Russian CPU? Indians? How? They chose their solutions backported from earlier prolly HAL Tejas for their radar/rocket/navigation/comms etc variety. IMHO their export variants reside on x86 for sure.

No, these are same processors used in design that goes back to Soviet Union era. They are just newer variants of same designs. The institutes working it are universities mixed with defense institutions. Hence why I mentioned SOLO-30, 35, etc are all radiation resistant as they are used for radar systems. I have enough knowledge in the field of what they use. Navigation system that uses GPS maybe but that is also being mixed in with using GLONASS systems. Outside of that, I know for a fact of what they use. You try to use idea of corruption and media propaganda but you are wrong, sorry. I follow sdelanounas.ru and the likes (friends in military) to know what is being developed. Unless you have evidence otherwise, I am sorry but I have to state you are incorrect. But judging by your location, I can tell that this conversation wont get very far simply because of political bias. I understand the hate between the two countries so we can end it here. And RISC isn't that hard to code for since you can see the popularity ARM is seeing.

Edit: if anyone cares or is interested in this sub debate, here is a good start: https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/?id=93

Outside of that, we gone off topic.

 

[Ferrum Master]

I understand the hate between the two countries so we can end it here.

The hate is one the things you already have consumed on mass media, yet not grasping the reality.

The last 1875ВД2Т ie i386 is still made by Svetlana, they are supplying all the x86 Soviet clone series. They have to, as the second place where they were made is Kiev.

Never the less, militaries do not care about this TSMC move... they have their own supply chain and specific needs.

 

[sepheronx]

The hate is one the things you already have consumed on mass media, yet not grasping the reality.

The last 1875ВД2Т ie i386 is still made by Svetlana, they are supplying all the x86 Soviet clone series. They have to, as the second place where they were made is Kiev.

Never the less, militaries do not care about this TSMC move... they have their own supply chain and specific needs.

Used very lightly as military have moved onto what I stated over the recent years due to new performance. As example - all jets including Su-24 with Gefast &T upgrade use Solo processors. Newest OTH radar (Kontainer as example) use Elbrus 2C+ given its Elvees DSP cores, etc. But I get what your saying. But I wouldn't be quick to scream propaganda without doing some digging.

 

[R-T-B]

Currently Radiation hardened CPU's are made maximimum on 28nm like SONOS imho UMC made.

Much larger process nodes actually, at least for radiation hardening.

US, i486 being the last, i386 is still used in many Russian military devices as default.

All the cpus of this type I've seen on spec sheets are MIPS actually, an example:

Mongoose-V - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Assimilator]

An extremely strange turnaround considering just two days ago there was an article saying exactly the opposite. Guess DigiTimes got it wrong.

I imagine this is going to end up much like Foxconn's amazing Winconsin factory: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/12/21217060/foxconn-wisconsin-innovation-centers-empty-buildings

The Pentagon is already finding Chinese spy chips in their military hardware.

[citation needed]

And no, the much-debunked Bloomberg story doesn't count.

Arizona...is out of China's reach.

ICBMs would like to have a word with you.

If China does seize Taiwan and all of Taiwan's manufacturing with it, TSMC will have a backstop to grow from.

If China does seize Taiwan, it will be because the USA abandoned Taiwan. How likely are you to want your backstop to be a nation that just threw you under the bus?

If TSMC really wanted a backstop, they'd build fabs in Europe or Africa or Australia. This move by TSMC, just like the Foxconn debacle, is merely a sop to the bullying of the current US administration.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Much larger process nodes actually, at least for radiation hardening.

I said at max. Microchip has RT PolarFire series made on 28nm, they targeted for satellites with high radiation tolerance.

There's a good book regarding what what uses. There's a zoo of it... It is the preference of the country/university it does. In military it is the same, who's the contractor and their solution historical base. Rarely something comes out of zero.

Space Microelectronics Volume 1: Spacecraft Classification, Failure, and Electrical Component Requirements (Artech House Space Technology and Applications)

 

[Flanker]

I imagine this is going to end up much like Foxconn's amazing Winconsin factory: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/12/21217060/foxconn-wisconsin-innovation-centers-empty-buildings

That maybe true. But it may turn out differently. For Foxconn, they just set up assembly lines that any literate warm bodies can take up a job there, they only let their own Taiwanese staff to be managers though, with rare exceptions. That could be a problem in the states. With TSMC they will want someone with STEM degrees and/or proper training, I also believe they are more open to have foreigners join their management

As for shenanigans between Taiwan and China, they have been at it for so many decades, there is nothing new. Last time I checked, the states are quite happy with the way it is now. It's good for business.

 

[Houd.ini]

But, isn't building clean rooms in hot and dusty place much harder and with more requirements than building the same clean rooms in areas with clean air and better temperatures all year round ?

I mean isn't it better to have it in the Northern states ?

I think stable tectonic conditions is a larger concern when building silicon fabs.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

[citation needed]

And no, the much-debunked Bloomberg story doesn't count.

Proof That Military Chips From China Are Infected?

www.military.com

China-sourced fake chips used in US military, says BusinessWeek

Fake microchips from China are causing a growing number of failures in military systems, according to an investigation by BusinessWeek magazine

www.theguardian.com

Concern Grows in U.S. Over China’s Drive to Make Chips (Published 2016)

Chips with military as well as electronics uses came under focus when Washington officials killed a $2.9 billion Chinese investment.

www.nytimes.com

They're also finding their way into Amazon and Apple cloud servers:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/10/04/china-inserted-surveillance-microchip-servers-used-by-amazon-apple-according-report/

Counterfeit parts in general are proving fatal in aviation:

Unapproved Airplane Parts Creating Safety Risk in Aviation

An NBC Bay Area investigation uncovers widespread use of unapproved airplane parts, some of which lead to fatal crashes. These parts are so ubiquitous in the industry and so easily available that The Unit was able to buy them over the Internet, no questions asked. Senior Investigative Reporter...

www.nbcbayarea.com

Danko’s forensic research uncovered that it wasn’t pilot error that caused the crash but rather an unsafe, unapproved airplane part. Danko found the seat track release for the pilot’s seat was recently installed by a local mechanic. However, the part had no accompanying FAA documentation or certification. Danko suspects the faulty seat track release failed, causing the pilot seat to move out of control.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/03/03/fatal-coverup-of-defective-army-helicopter-parts-alleged-in-lawsuit/

The suit cites the failure of a component in the aircraft’s Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC), a digital device that makes sure there is enough fuel going to the helicopter’s engine.

Triumph could not be reached immediately for comment. The lawsuit alleges the company’s design of the engine control unit in the FADEC was “defective and unreasonably dangerous,” and accuses Goodrich and Triumph of concealing defects in it while continuing to supply parts to companies and the U.S. government.

ICBMs would like to have a word with you.

They only have three (DF-5, DF-31, DF-41) that might reach Arizona but USA also has THAAD that they wouldn't hesitate to use to intercept them.

 

[ARF]

I think stable tectonic conditions is a larger concern when building silicon fabs.

Arizona is close to Nevada and California which are subject to quite intense tectonic activity.

Latest Earthquakes

earthquake.usgs.gov

They only have three (DF-5, DF-31, DF-41) that might reach Arizona but USA also has THAAD that they wouldn't hesitate to use to intercept them.

One tsunami is enough. And THAAD won't stop the tsunami.

 

[Turmania]

TSMC has to do this or later on they will lose out Apple,Amd and other Amercan and probably EU companies. You have to undderstand a chess game is being played and future will be very different to what we had before.

 

[Houd.ini]

Arizona is close to Nevada and California which are subject to quite intense tectonic activity.

I know that it is a neighbouring state, but traditionally, this has been mentioned as a reason for placement of fabs, that's why I found this news piece/rumour odd.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Used very lightly as military have moved onto what I stated over the recent years due to new performance. As example - all jets including Su-24 with Gefast &T upgrade use Solo processors. Newest OTH radar (Kontainer as example) use Elbrus 2C+ given its Elvees DSP cores, etc. But I get what your saying. But I wouldn't be quick to scream propaganda without doing some digging.

I highly respect you. As I said many things are faked up. We are targeted at such scale from certain organs. Please excuse me. I do not hold any grudge against Russian people, it would be stupid go against my friends. So lets get straight here.

I have experience only about things made till 1992. with my own eyes. Including ICBM. The funny thing about those i386, nobody knows where are they used now. Why making things then? So those are rockets imho, thus I deduced most used.

It still stands as as a valid argument, that software is 75%, then the HW. The heck... Voskhod were tube based like still recently(only one remained?) Why? They worked...

During 10 years it wilk change a lot thou... the military landscape changes also.

 

[ARF]

I understand the hate between the two countries so we can end it here.

I don't. This theatre is so counter-productive. The thing is that if you look at the global picture, you'd see that Russia and USA are two sides of the same coin or parts of one whole.
There are tensions between many nations - South and North Koreans, Spain and UK, UK and Germany, France and Spain, France and UK, etc...

Actually, the Rus' origins are in Eastern Sweden which makes them Germans somewhat, and you might try to understand the holy union between Russia, Prussia and Austria.
Austria doesn't participate in military unions with Germany.

 

[sepheronx]

I highly respect you. As I said many things are faked up. We are targeted at such scale from certain organs. Please excuse me. I do not hold any grudge against Russian people, it would be stupid go against my friends. So lets get straight here.

I have experience only about things made till 1992. with my own eyes. Including ICBM. The funny thing about those i386, nobody knows where are they used now. Why making things then? So those are rockets imho, thus I deduced most used.

It still stands as as a valid argument, that software is 75%, then the HW. The heck... Voskhod were tube based like still recently(only one remained?) Why? They worked...

During 10 years it wilk change a lot thou... the military landscape changes also.

Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. It's like you said it works. Over here in Canada the most common phrase is "why fix it if it isn't broken"? I guess for applications where the old processor works, it works well and the structure it's in, then why not? Take dead hand - a system that's older than I am and it does one purpose only. Hence why they don't have to really change its system since nothing high end is needed. Heck, at my workplace we have machines and software older than I am and it's for a major company.

Yeah, a gradual change. Only reason why they did it was because they knew they were or could be left without modernish hardware so they were forced to develop newer stuff. They just tend to stick to RISC and MIPS due to open licensing and less legal troubles (they are part of WTO afterall and Russian railways was forced to cancel an agreement with INEUM for Elbrus 8S machines as they didn't hold a proper competition for said machines. But second wave they purchased the Elbrus 8s machines successfully under WTO rules). Made me laugh.

Anyway, I think we just threw this whole thread off track. But it was an interesting experience. I too respect you and sorry if I came off as strict or abrupt. Normally I am not.

I'm not familiar with civilian process compared to military but as I said and you yourself said, this definately isn't a plant for military means and thus the idea about it can be discarded. But now with falling demand of semiconductors for smartphones due to smartphone sales dropping, I don't know if many are eager to build a new fabrication plant tbh.

 

[RoutedScripter]

The Donald knows the US have fallen behind, Intel are struggling to get beyond 14nm+++++++++++++, and AM "real men have fabs" D embarrassingly couldn't afford to compete and spun off GlobalFoundries years ago.

Didn't you notice something fishy ... ?

A republic, ... stronger together ... Why the **** are companies from the same country competing against themselfs then ???????? ....

Welcome to Planet Earth! It's All A Joke.

 

[Dante Uchiha]

Is it a good idea to place a factory full of sensitive equipment so close to a huge geological fissure? The USA has some better points than that I think.