Apple to Announce its own Mac Processor at WWDC (Late June)

[Nichotin]

Or maybe Apple will lock everything up even more. They love to control everything.

Sure, but they can lock everything in terms of installing a non-blessed OS, while still providing Boot Camp support. My take on it is that providing Boot Camp today on Intel Macs has been beneficial for Apple, and I can imagine that it still will be even on a new architecture - but this time the mutual benefit will be higher.

 

[king of swag187]

In another word , Apple found way to obstruct fixing and servicing and also (but not limited to) upgrading.

Ah yes, because you where going to do a BGA CPU upgrade on your MBP anyways.....

 

[ValenOne]

Sure, but they can lock everything in terms of installing a non-blessed OS, while still providing Boot Camp support. My take on it is that providing Boot Camp today on Intel Macs has been beneficial for Apple, and I can imagine that it still will be even on a new architecture - but this time the mutual benefit will be higher.

The performance from Mactel's Boot Camp comes with X86 version of Windows and the driver stack that comes with it. I don't see "mutual benefit will be higher" with ARM-powered Macs.

 

[R0H1T]

You sure? There's probably 2x as many apps on iOS as compared to Mac OS, heck gamers can enjoy the latest version of Candy Crushing Angry birds right alongside their release on the iPhone

 

[Frick]

wow, less performance for more money! nice

I highly doubt theperformance will be worse.

Personally I'm interested in seeing the overall performance of the final product. If it'sgood enough (especialy for laptops) we might see a small surge of ARM Windoes laptops, which wouldn'tbe a bad thing.

 

[Parn]

For average daily usage and some graphical design work, I believe the performance will be at least on par with x86 or even better provided developers are willing to rewrite and optimise the code for ARM. However for complex high power usage like what MacBook Pro and iMac Pro users usually do, I don't know if this transition is a good idea. After all the original design concept of the ARM architecture isn't meant for high performance general purpose workstation processors.

 

[Vayra86]

To be honest that's where I think all of this is heading. Macs are basically going to become iOS devices, everything is going to get unified.

Apple will succeed where MS will keep failing. Though success I think might not be the correct term, depending on where you sit.

Luckily MS turned to cloud already.

 

[ValenOne]

Apple will succeed where MS will keep failing. Though success I think might not be the correct term, depending on where you sit.

Luckily MS turned to cloud already.

Reminder, MS still dominates desktop OS market share.

 

[Ravenas]

Moving away from PPC to x86 is the only thing that kept Apple alive - their software ecosystem was defecting to x86 rapidly as PPC was falling behind the performance curve.

I'm curious to see how this pans out, but I'm expecting the software market for Macs to either get dumbed down to iOS-grade products, or worse still - just shrink as many developers can't be bothered to rewrite their software from the ground up for a completely different architecture. They'll just continue to offer Windows, Linux, and Chrome support and make do with the 90% of the market that isn't using a Mac.

The strategy at this point doesn't extend beyond entry level consumer products. Professional products and upper level consumer products will remain the same. Don't see the point of your comment.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Reminder, MS still dominates desktop OS market share.

This, I think, is largely due to corporate/enterprise buying up licenses in volume. We’re well past the days of the average household owning multiple Windows machines, but those same households own multiple mobile devices that don’t run Windows. A year ago, there were 2.5B active Android devices, and Windows 10 just hit 1B. In 2018, iOS reached 1.2B active users. In other words, Windows is no longer the world’s most-used OS. It’s number 2 or 3! I know all things aren’t equal, but MS used to have complete dominance here, and that has slowly declined since the smartphone. MacOS user share has not changed much over the years by comparison. It’s a niche market, but it’s also in a premium market, so it has held its own.

The cloud is going to keep MS afloat, as I can see a time coming where corporate IT will ask employees to BYOD for not just their smartphones (which is rather common), but also their own computers, and they will just host a remote session. My large employer is kicking that idea around right now. No doubt Windows is the most accommodating OS, but Windows machines are now just another appliance to accomplish work, not the center of the household. MS can no longer lean on Windows and Office to make its profits.

 

[phanbuey]

Hey I've been predicting the rise of ARM, in so far as Apple is concerned, since at least 2012/13 so can I say I told you so
There's a few things you have to remember, the (number 1) reason Apple is moving away from x86 isn't just performance or efficiency ~ it's mostly margins & of course their slowing iPhone sales. There's only so much they can milk now, I've always thought this move would come sooner because the biggest moneymakers in the electronics (or computing) industry have been top down integrated players like Samsung, Apple & of course Intel.

As for the MS announcement, it'd be more helpful if you'd reveal if this was a (inhouse?) custom chip or just some initiative to push for Windows on ARM?

Microsoft SQ1 SoC

Benchmarks, information, and specifications for the Microsoft SQ1

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[Vayra86]

Reminder, MS still dominates desktop OS market share.

Yes but for consumer the real question is desktop machine adoption more than OS choice, these days. There is the eternal Linux niche and then there is Windows for everyone else. This hasn't changed, but the devices actually being used alot are the mobile ones and laptops. The latter could run Windows... but can also be a Chromebook for example.

The market is clearly diversifying and this means Windows will have to evolve along with it. So far, its not really managing to turn our desktops into 'fully integrated' devices in the home ecosystem. For business, the tools are readily available but for consumer its a big mess unless you subscribe yourself to a handful of Azure services.

Now look at Apple... they got that shit locked down tight, it works flawlessly, and the user needs zero tech knowledge. Matter of fact, its not even useful because you can't control anything. Their device integration is already complete while MS is still fumbling about with 'Projects' such as Continuum / One Windows / Windows RT... all failures.

 

[HugsNotDrugs]

Anyone who is very excited for this doesn't respect any choice. Their all Macbooks are having soldered POS HW from SSD to battery, KB. They even made an Intersil chip not available on the market for repairs, to force users into their repair structure with insane revenue.

Nobody who bought Apple products in the last few years values choice enough to spend their dollars elsewhere.

 

[claes]

The strategy at this point doesn't extend beyond entry level consumer products. Professional products and upper level consumer products will remain the same. Don't see the point of your comment.

Genuine question — if MacOS still going to be Unix based, how much development software will be compatible?

 

[Nichotin]

The performance from Mactel's Boot Camp comes with X86 version of Windows and the driver stack that comes with it. I don't see "mutual benefit will be higher" with ARM-powered Macs.

Just to clarify, I didn't refer to performance. I was thinking of adoption and availability of applications compiled for ARM.

 

[Ravenas]

Genuine question — if MacOS still going to be Unix based, how much development software will be compatible?

Apple has begun separating it's "Pro" products from its consumer products. The majority of Mac Pro customers are looking for custom solutions for video / image editing and/or other activities in that realm. Apple will remain competitive in this until some other form of hardware / software is available.

Pro users are small fraction of sales, and Apple is chasing profits stemming from consumer needs, unique / cross device ecosystem, and price points.

 

[claes]

Apple has begun separating it's "Pro" products from its consumer products. The majority of Mac Pro customers are looking for custom solutions for video / image editing and/or other activities in that realm. Apple will remain competitive in this until some other form of hardware / software is available.

Pro users are small fraction of sales, and Apple is chasing profits stemming from consumer needs, unique / cross device ecosystem, and price points.

Sorry, I meant software and web developers, another large market for Apple, where native unix without the hassle of maintaining a Linux system has been a big selling point.

Aren’t they going to have to provide drivers to Docker (or expect them to build them)? Will Laravel et al work OOB? Will homebrew have to be rewritten?

Asking in all ignorance

 

[Franzen4Real]

Now look at Apple... they got that shit locked down tight, it works flawlessly, and the user needs zero tech knowledge. Matter of fact, its not even useful because you can't control anything. Their device integration is already complete while MS is still fumbling about with 'Projects' such as Continuum / One Windows / Windows RT... all failures.

lol Continuum.... Many years ago I bought a Windows Phone and got the Continuum dock for free with it. It was just horrible....

 

[ValenOne]

Yes but for consumer the real question is desktop machine adoption more than OS choice, these days. There is the eternal Linux niche and then there is Windows for everyone else. This hasn't changed, but the devices actually being used alot are the mobile ones and laptops. The latter could run Windows... but can also be a Chromebook for example.

The market is clearly diversifying and this means Windows will have to evolve along with it. So far, its not really managing to turn our desktops into 'fully integrated' devices in the home ecosystem. For business, the tools are readily available but for consumer its a big mess unless you subscribe yourself to a handful of Azure services.

Now look at Apple... they got that shit locked down tight, it works flawlessly, and the user needs zero tech knowledge. Matter of fact, its not even useful because you can't control anything. Their device integration is already complete while MS is still fumbling about with 'Projects' such as Continuum / One Windows / Windows RT... all failures.

Apple is a minority in handheld mobile (Android), laptop (Windows) and desktop (Windows) market segments. Apple is losing the content creation with raytracing acceleration war.

 

[Ravenas]

Sorry, I meant software and web developers, another large market for Apple, where native unix without the hassle of maintaining a Linux system has been a big selling point.

Aren’t they going to have to provide drivers to Docker (or expect them to build them)? Will Laravel et al work OOB? Will homebrew have to be rewritten?

Asking in all ignorance

ARM processors in entry level Macs enable access to iOS app library which is extensive. Apple doesn't need to convince anyone to develop apps for their already mature iOS app selection.

 

[Chrispy_]

Apple is a minority in handheld mobile (Android), laptop (Windows) and desktop (Windows) market segments. Apple is losing the content creation with raytracing acceleration war.

One of Apple's last two professional bastions (that's music production and filmmaking) is defecting to Windows because all of the VFX modelling tools are vastly superior outside of Apple's ecosystem and Final Cut Pro isn't the only game in town any more.

On top of that the new Mac Pro is the first time Apple have put any serious effort into the sector since the 1st Gen Intel model in 2007. The 2012 trashcan was a joke. It lacked RAM capacity and was limited to mobile GPU variants. Now in 2019 Apple came to the party to address the RAM capacity issue but are charging ridiculous money for a cheap commodity item and still bring 100-fewer cores to the party than the competion.

If you need cores, like - actually, professionally need them, you can get a 64C/128T Threadripper for similar money to Apple's base price with a shitty 8C offering. For the sort of money Apple are asking for their 28C Xeon, anyone capable of working in Windows or Linux will have already purchased a 2P Rome solution. 28C vs 128C isn't even worth laughing about. Apple have lost that market, and burned.

 

[Ravenas]

One of Apple's last two professional bastions (that's music production and filmmaking) is defecting to Windows because all of the VFX modelling tools are vastly superior outside of Apple's ecosystem and Final Cut Pro isn't the only game in town any more.

On top of that the new Mac Pro is the first time Apple have put any serious effort into the sector since the 1st Gen Intel model in 2007. The 2012 trashcan was a joke. It lacked RAM capacity and was limited to mobile GPU variants. Now in 2019 Apple came to the party to address the RAM capacity issue but are charging ridiculous money for a cheap commodity item and still bring 100-fewer cores to the party than the competion.

If you need cores, like - actually, professionally need them, you can get a 64C/128T Threadripper for similar money to Apple's base price with a shitty 8C offering. For the sort of money Apple are asking for their 28C Xeon, anyone capable of working in Windows or Linux will have already purchased a 2P Rome solution. 28C vs 128C isn't even worth laughing about. Apple have lost that market, and burned.

If the market were lost and burned as you stated, Apple would not be manufacturing in the product segment.

 

[claes]

ARM processors in entry level Macs enable access to iOS app library which is extensive. Apple doesn't need to convince anyone to develop apps for their already mature iOS app selection.

I think you misunderstood my question.

On a mac you can open up a terminal and be treated to a standard shell. You can use homebrew, a package manager, to install common linux applications, without having to compile them for mac. Things like apache are installed OOB -- you just need to turn the server on and configure it as you would in any linux distribution. The unix subsystem is the whole reason developers who use macs use them (and there are a lot).

If you are a developer who uses something like laravel, how will this be supported? Will PHP be supported at all? How will you install common javascript libraries? etc.

I suppose I can answer my own question around docker (well, all of this) -- wait and see. But I can't imagine mac being as popular as it is with developers if they take the unix out of it and force users to use containers or other virtualized environments, even if being portable/system agnostic is the future of applications. The whole appeal is the glitz of the os and not having to maintain anything while still being able to configure quite a bit.

Maybe I'm answering my own question again...

 

[Ravenas]

I think you misunderstood my question.

On a mac you can open up a terminal and be treated to a standard shell. You can use homebrew, a package manager, to install common linux applications, without having to compile them for mac. Things like apache are installed OOB -- you just need to turn the server on and configure it as you would in any linux distribution. The unix subsystem is the whole reason developers who use macs use them (and there are a lot).

If you are a developer who uses something like laravel, how will this be supported? Will PHP be supported at all? How will you install common javascript libraries? etc.

I suppose I can answer my own question around docker (well, all of this) -- wait and see. But I can't imagine mac being as popular as it is with developers if they take the unix out of it and force users to use containers or other virtualized environments, even if being portable/system agnostic is the future of applications. The whole appeal is the glitz of the os and not having to maintain anything while still being able to configure quite a bit.

Maybe I'm answering my own question again...

I know how Mac operates, and I understand packages within it. That is beside the point... You are assuming you will only have an option of ARM.

The answer to your question is that the product segments are split in two. Apple does not have a 1 way and that's it. Apple has never embraced MS practices like Surface, rather they believe there is a device for purpose not 1 device to serve all. People in this thread are trying to paint a picture that Apple is going 100% ARM. That is not true, at least not for quite some time.

 

[claes]

Ah, fair enough. Wasn't trying to argue, just curious what people thought