Editorial As AMD Ryzen 4000G Kept Out of DIY Retail Channel, Bootlegging of OEM Parts Takes Over

[Valantar]

L3

So you were arguing that the results were due to the lower L3 cache and not due to the restriced PCIe link? Here's a suggestion: next time you want to make an argument, actually make an argument. Saying "I think you are confusing things" says nothing at all about what you are thinking of. To paraphrase your post, I think you are confusing your words with words saying something yours are not. From the little you did say, you seemed to be arguing like-for-like (gaming?) performance with the 3800X with the only advantage being due to clock speeds, which ... well, doesn't match with the L3 affecting things.

Lets face it, you weren't buying the Renoir chip for its graphics because the Vega11 in the 3400G really isn't much slower.

Not that much slower, but certainly slower, and with a lot less OC headroom. I'm not even close to considering a 3400G for my HTPC for this very reason. A ~4700G or ~4600G will likely deliver decent 1080p gaming chops if I push the RAM a bit (which it can handle, unlike Picasso), which a 3400G doesn't really achieve. Compound that with seemingly great IF clock scaling (reportedly 2300MHz is relatively normal), a high-clocking iGPU (THW's testing was done at 2.4GHz) and AMD's best IMC so far and this thing will knock the boots off any other APU build.

 

[Tomorrow]

If you buy one to put in a consumer board without any of the corresponding security hardware and software stack to go with it, then you're doing it wrong.

I did truy to get the Pro Manageability working becuse on paper it sound great. Being able to fully remote control a machine. Even BIOS.

Just buy an easy-to get 3700X and call it a day.

Such build would need a dGPU too so in the end it would be more expensive. 3700X itself is more expensive than 4750G.

Lets face it, you weren't buying the Renoir chip for its graphics because the Vega11 in the 3400G really isn't much slower.

Vega11 is much lower clocked. The iGPU is exactly the reason to buy Renoir. It's the strongest iGPU out there. Even if the user does not utilize the enterprise features. Especially if the Renoir retail chips end up costing about the same.

Renoir is a very attractive buy because it combines 8 SMT enabled Zen2 cores with the strongest iGPU to date and costs less than 3700X. Another reason besides high demand for Renoir from Laptop ODM's might be that AMD does not want Renoir to cannibalize Matisse sales before Vermeer comes out. After that those who want best CPU performance will go to Vermeer instead and Matisse sales will fall regardless and AMD can sell Renoir at halfway point between Matisse and Vermeer price points.

 

[Chrispy_]

I did truy to get the Pro Manageability working becuse on paper it sound great. Being able to fully remote control a machine. Even BIOS.

Yeah, the BIOS support for these chips on consumer boards is just basic boot support. None of that Pro Manageability stuff is going to work on, say, an MSI B550 Mortar. It's a three-piece puzzle that requires NIC support, BIOS support, CPU support and if you get your hands on a 4750G you're still missing two of the three pieces.

I know remote management is awesome, I use it several times a day every day because that's my day job, but it's not cheap and it's not functionality that's included in most consumer boards. If anyone's 'done a crazy' and dumped enterprise hardware into the consumer channel, I'd put money on it being Asrock. Those guys are nuts, in a good way.

Such build would need a dGPU too so in the end it would be more expensive. 3700X itself is more expensive than 4750G.

Uh, this article specifically calls out the $399 price for a bare chip out of a tray with zero-warranty, whilst I've seen 3700X at $280 pretty frequently with a decent CPU cooler and a warranty. Spend that $120 on an RX570 and there's no contest, or if you're after something basic slot in a GT710 which for some reason is still being manufactured and sold for under $50 in 2020. I don't get it - it's Kepler architecture from 2011....

Vega11 is much lower clocked. The iGPU is exactly the reason to buy Renoir. It's the strongest iGPU out there. Even if the user does not utilize the enterprise features. Especially if the Renoir retail chips end up costing about the same.

Valantar's already posted the benchmark. It's 10% faster than last gen which isn't going to be enough to change what you can/can't do with these things. If a 3400G can just about run something at 28fps, you're not going to have an earth-shattering improvement when it runs at 32fps on a 4750G. That RX570 I mentioned earlier will be getting 132fps, that's your answer!

 

[Tomorrow]

Uh, this article specifically calls out the $399 price for a bare chip out of a tray with zero-warranty, whilst I've seen 3700X at $280 pretty frequently with a decent CPU cooler and a warranty. Spend that $120 on an RX570 and there's no contest, or if you're after something basic slot in a GT710 which for some reason is still being manufactured and sold for under $50 in 2020. I don't get it - it's Kepler architecture from 2011....

You are comparing two very different things. One is some shady asian seller and another i assume is a reputable retailer. Official price for 4750G is 310€ and that's what i paid. Besides 3700X was 330€ at the same retailer. In reality the price difference is much smaller. Too small to afford a decent new dGPU. Used - yes.

Valantar's already posted the benchmark. It's 10% faster than last gen which isn't going to be enough to change what you can/can't do with these things. If a 3400G can just about run something at 28fps, you're not going to have an earth-shattering improvement when it runs at 32fps on a 4750G. That RX570 I mentioned earlier will be getting 132fps, that's your answer!

RX570 is way above low end stuff. The same way i could say 980Ti gets 300fps costing 200 used and thus RX570 is a bad deal. Besides Reinoir has much higher OC headroom compared to 3400G. Even 4750G that runs at 2100Mhz out of the box can go to 2400-2600Mhz.

 

[Chrispy_]

You are comparing two very different things. One is some shady asian seller and another i assume is a reputable retailer. Official price for 4750G is 310€ and that's what i paid. Besides 3700X was 330€ at the same retailer. In reality the price difference is much smaller. Too small to afford a decent new dGPU. Used - yes.

RX570 is way above low end stuff. The same way i could say 980Ti gets 300fps costing 200 used and thus RX570 is a bad deal. Besides Reinoir has much higher OC headroom compared to 3400G. Even 4750G that runs at 2100Mhz out of the box can go to 2400-2600Mhz.

I guess if you are finding them at very similar prices, you're choosing between "four times the cache and a free heatsink" or "IGP"; Pick whichever one means the most to you.

As for the RX570, I picked that because you can get them for $120 and that's how much cheaper a retail 3700X is over the $400 ebay option for those not lucky enough to be in a region with retail access to a 4750G for €310. It wasn't supposed to be a fair fight against the Vega8, more to prove just how utterly dominated any IGP is by a proper dGPU with 5X the power budget and 8X the RAM bandwidth.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yep i agree that 400 is too much for 4750G.

 

[silentbogo]

So you were arguing that the results were due to the lower L3 cache and not due to the restriced PCIe link?

Dude, did you even read the review you linked to? Paul covered both things, like APU having x16 PCIe 3.0 lanes available(24 total, just like 3000-series), and that the gaming results are expected due to higher L3 cache.

 

[Valantar]

Valantar's already posted the benchmark. It's 10% faster than last gen which isn't going to be enough to change what you can/can't do with these things. If a 3400G can just about run something at 28fps, you're not going to have an earth-shattering improvement when it runs at 32fps on a 4750G. That RX570 I mentioned earlier will be getting 132fps, that's your answer

Depends on the goal of your build. If bang for your buck is your goal on a low end budget, getting a used RX 570 is the obvious choice. But unless you're willing to order your case and PSU off Taobao you're not fitting that into a tiny and sleek case that fits well next to a TV or in a backpack for travel. I'm putting my HTPC in a Lazer3d HT5, which is something like 4l volume. The case can fit LP GPUs, but those are noisy and wouldn't let me fit an internal PSU, forcing me to use a power brick, which I would prefer to avoid. Instead I get a passably performant system cooled by a single 140mm fan (that can stay off most of the time) in a tiny case, yet it can still play the odd round of Rocket League. That is exactly what I want from it - I have my main PC for heavier games. Is this good value? Of course not. But it's still damn good.

 

[Chrispy_]

Depends on the goal of your build. If bang for your buck is your goal on a low end budget, getting a used RX 570 is the obvious choice. But unless you're willing to order your case and PSU off Taobao you're not fitting that into a tiny and sleek case that fits well next to a TV or in a backpack for travel. I'm putting my HTPC in a Lazer3d HT5, which is something like 4l volume. The case can fit LP GPUs, but those are noisy and wouldn't let me fit an internal PSU, forcing me to use a power brick, which I would prefer to avoid. Instead I get a passably performant system cooled by a single 140mm fan (that can stay off most of the time) in a tiny case, yet it can still play the odd round of Rocket League. That is exactly what I want from it - I have my main PC for heavier games. Is this good value? Of course not. But it's still damn good.

Yeah, I'm waiting for AMD to realise that they've squandered their IGP advantage over the last few years and react before its too late.
Sadly Cezanne (5000-series APUs) are confirmed to be Vega not Navi, and the ES leaks suggest it's still the same Vega8 we have in Renoir. Looking like 2022 before we get a meaningful graphics upgrade over Raven Ridge....

 

[Vayra86]

Yeah, the BIOS support for these chips on consumer boards is just basic boot support. None of that Pro Manageability stuff is going to work on, say, an MSI B550 Mortar. It's a three-piece puzzle that requires NIC support, BIOS support, CPU support and if you get your hands on a 4750G you're still missing two of the three pieces.

I know remote management is awesome, I use it several times a day every day because that's my day job, but it's not cheap and it's not functionality that's included in most consumer boards. If anyone's 'done a crazy' and dumped enterprise hardware into the consumer channel, I'd put money on it being Asrock. Those guys are nuts, in a good way.


Uh, this article specifically calls out the $399 price for a bare chip out of a tray with zero-warranty, whilst I've seen 3700X at $280 pretty frequently with a decent CPU cooler and a warranty. Spend that $120 on an RX570 and there's no contest, or if you're after something basic slot in a GT710 which for some reason is still being manufactured and sold for under $50 in 2020. I don't get it - it's Kepler architecture from 2011....


Valantar's already posted the benchmark. It's 10% faster than last gen which isn't going to be enough to change what you can/can't do with these things. If a 3400G can just about run something at 28fps, you're not going to have an earth-shattering improvement when it runs at 32fps on a 4750G. That RX570 I mentioned earlier will be getting 132fps, that's your answer!

You are right. But the problem here as always is apparently again supply and time to market, OR just bad product placement. You can see the same thing happening with the G- CPUs at large that are trailing development. That's not how you dominate a laptop segment, that's for sure. Intel has its special CPUs for, say, Apple, as well. But its the odd one out and there is stuff above and beyond in the same stack available for everyone as well. For AMD its now the most powerful part they can offer in this segment. Its a big difference, mostly in perception because as you say, 10% isn't going to change a thing.

 

[Valantar]

Yeah, I'm waiting for AMD to realise that they've squandered their IGP advantage over the last few years and react before its too late.
Sadly Cezanne (5000-series APUs) are confirmed to be Vega not Navi, and the ES leaks suggest it's still the same Vega8 we have in Renoir. Looking like 2022 before we get a meaningful graphics upgrade over Raven Ridge....

While I would definitely have liked a bigger iGPU, I still see this as a meaningful iGPU update over Raven Ridge - a 13% increase stock over stock isn't much, but 23% OC over OC is definitely decent (and I don't believe that OC will be difficult to reach or even beat). For lower tier SKUs the advantage is likely to be bigger still as they are likely to clock nearly as high as this, with a comparably minor drop in CUs compared to the previous generation. The entire lineup this time around is far more attractive than with the 3000-series APUs, with even the 4300G being quite attractive (and likely to outperform the 3400G with even a minor iGPU OC). I'm still very much looking forward to what APUs with RDNA2 and DDR5 will look like (fingers crossed they give them a decent CU count!), but for now, these represent an attractive proposition when compared to the previous generation.

You are right. But the problem here as always is apparently again supply and time to market, OR just bad product placement. You can see the same thing happening with the G- CPUs at large that are trailing development. That's not how you dominate a laptop segment, that's for sure. Intel has its special CPUs for, say, Apple, as well. But its the odd one out and there is stuff above and beyond in the same stack available for everyone as well. For AMD its now the most powerful part they can offer in this segment. Its a big difference, mostly in perception because as you say, 10% isn't going to change a thing.

Well, one could argue that the trailing development is mostly in the naming of the parts, given that Zen 2 for desktops launched (in relatively low volumes) in August '19 with mobile APUs launching in January '20 (though admittedly being slow to actually come to market). There's a gap, but it isn't huge. The gap is huge for desktop APUs, but given just how low volume these parts are, it's understandable (even if it sucks for those of us wanting one). There are also rumors going around that AMD will be skipping the 4000 naming for the next generation of CPUs, which could then align mobile and desktop architectures under the same "generation" of parts (assuming next-gen APUs are also Zen 3). Of course this doesn't tell us anything about when Zen 3 will hit mobile, but given AMD's growth in mobile in the past year I'd wager they're putting more effort into it now than previously. I am fully expecting a new mobile APU lineup to launch around CES-time (even if CES is cancelled).

 

[theonek]

hmm interesting. Here these chips are widely available in retail stores and prices are way lower than in ebay listed from china... And comes with a wraith cooler...

AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G 8 Core 3.6GHz AM4 MPK Tray Процесори - Pazaruvaj.com

AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G 8 Core 3.6GHz AM4 MPK Tray Процесори - Pazaruvaj.com

www.pazaruvaj.com

 

[Tomorrow]

hmm interesting. Here these chips are widely available in retail stores and prices are way lower than in ebay listed from china... And comes with a wraith cooler...

AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G 8 Core 3.6GHz AM4 MPK Tray Процесори - Pazaruvaj.com

AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 4750G 8 Core 3.6GHz AM4 MPK Tray Процесори - Pazaruvaj.com

www.pazaruvaj.com

Arvutitark

Osta arvuti targalt, Arvutitargalt!

arvutitark.ee

 

[AsRock]

If the item is on ebay and listed as NEW ebay will cover you, and if it's going take longer than a month to get to you just open a case with ebay.