A Battle Royale for the Ages: Apple Announces Decision to Remove Unreal Engine from iOS and Mac Tools; Epic Games Responds With Another Lawsuit

[hippie]

Apple (and, to a much lesser degrees, Google) are engaged in practices that are harmful to their customers.
That shit needs fixing.

I don't see how them charging a fee to use their storefront is being harmful. This suit looks even more silly when you consider Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and Valve all have a 30% cut. Ever look up TV licencing fees to broadcast shows? It's in the millions for 1 season.

Why aren't credit cards banned in that case too. To be a merchant accepting Visa or Mastercard you pay for the hardware then for each transaction; a transaction fee and discount rate. Transaction fee is a % of the total of the sale and discount rate is a flat fee per transaction. Source : worked at First data Merchant services for a decade.

I find this lawsuit silly at best. I can't wait to see how it plays out.

Personally my bets are on Epic losing and either have to walk away with their tail between their legs and/or being permanently banned from Apple products. Apple doesn't care, they still refuse to allow Nvidia cards to work on their hardware out of spite.

 

[Dimi]

Thats like saying you don't wanna pay taxes that keep this country running.

If Epic doesn't wanna pay rent for the services they get from the Appstore and Play store, they can fuck off. Who has to deal with payments, credit card frauds, server maintanance cost and support?

They're crying about a 30% cut, Music artists get about 15% at BEST.

 

[windwhirl]

I probably wouldn't win or lose anything regardless of the outcome of this, but I would take Epic's side...? I mean, it's not like Apple's selling exclusively to the government, they sell to normal people too. So, why should they get preferential treatment? I'm sure that, if Microsoft did what Apple did, everyone would be asking for a bloodbath in Redmond.

 

[tacosRcool]

Tencent owns 40% of Epic and with Fort its being a huge cash cow, of course they don't want to pay Apple's fees.

 

[InhaleOblivion]

Gotta love a thread that hasn't been derailed. This is the silliest lawsuit I've seen in years. Thankfully you can tell by their campaign that they ultimately will have to launch the mobile equivalent of EGS. They technically already got the ball started with the original way that Fortnite was released on mobile through Android. But I'm sure even with just 70% of the profits from Apple, that has helped them rake in billions. Just think about all the children/teenagers that make their parents and grandparents buy them a iPhone just to Facetime and play Fortnite. They also picked the wrong administration to do this with. The moment the Trump administration gets wind of this, they are cooked since almost half of Epic is owned by "China". Just look at how that has worked out for Huawei, and Bytedance(who created TikTok).

 

[zlobby]

This time Epic bite more they can chew. Time for Sweeney's delusions to come to an (bitter) end.

 

[Crackong]

Again:

Just for a fact that EPIC Store itself is doing the same thing getting cuts from developers revenue, this whole lawsuit is unjustified.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

In this gaming space, Freemium seems to be the default format. If they pulled Apple’s cut from the microtransactions, then every developer would go free with the ability to unlock. They’d all just leech off Apple’s software environment and customer base. As a customer, I like that Apple handles my transaction and limits what information is shared versus me having to pay out to every random company, where I have no idea what they will do with my payment information or how secure they plan to keep it. Too many companies fail in that regard, so the fewer that hold my personal data, the better.

Epic misplayed their hand, IMO. They got Fortnite pulled from iOS, Google Play, and Samsung, THEN they tried to gain alliances with other developers. What developer wants to join that party? It’s not even like Epic is being professional about this process. It’s like siding with the class clown who just got sent to detention.

 

[sumludus]

Why aren't credit cards banned in that case too. To be a merchant accepting Visa or Mastercard you pay for the hardware then for each transaction; a transaction fee and discount rate. Transaction fee is a % of the total of the sale and discount rate is a flat fee per transaction. Source : worked at First data Merchant services for a decade.

Then you know the Transaction fee is just a bit south of 2% and the discount rate is $0.10/transaction. Apple charging 30% is in an entirely different league. And while I think Apple should be able to charge a fee, I can agree with Epic that the fee is unreasonable. If you're a company who makes all of their money off of app store transactions, then the Apple/Google tax is higher than the Federal Tax you pay to the US Government.

In my mind, Epic is doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. I can't imagine a court who will rule against Apple, so lawsuits isn't the way to settle this. What Epic should be doing is bringing together all the developers who have a beef with Apple and organizing a group boycott where they pull their apps off of the store themselves rather than wait for Apple's ToS to kick in. Unfortunately, Apple has grown large enough to have in-house replacements for pretty much every 3rd party app in their store, so it won't be a financially damaging tactic. But by pulling their apps from the store, they'll essentially be building Apple's walls higher and secluding iDevice users from a more open development environment where users have more freedom. Not that things are rosey in the world of Android, but it is a platform more open to respecting user choice.

Or Epic could just buy Amazon's IP from the failed Fire Phone and build their own platform.

 

[watzupken]

Yep, agreed. I don't do business with Epic. Not saying I'm a huge fan of Apple, but I detest Epic and will never buy anything from their storefront.

Likewise. I have no preference for either of the companies, but because of the way EPIC conduct themselves, I will no longer be using their store going forward. Apple is not some hero in this case, but rather EPIC is clearly at fault in their conduct and rallying people to justify their bad behavior is just not right. For those thinking they are fighting for "freedom" of choice, this is just EPIC trying to make you think. If EPIC is in the dominant position, I don't believe they will behave any differently from these supposed "monopoly/ duopoly".

Then you know the Transaction fee is just a bit south of 2% and the discount rate is $0.10/transaction. Apple charging 30% is in an entirely different league. And while I think Apple should be able to charge a fee, I can agree with Epic that the fee is unreasonable. If you're a company who makes all of their money off of app store transactions, then the Apple/Google tax is higher than the Federal Tax you pay to the US Government.

Whether the fee is reasonable or not, it is hard to tell. It could be reasonable at some point, but costly at another. For people flocking into iOS store in the past, 30% cut is nothing considering there are survey done to say that people are more willing to spend on the iOS appstore. Say Apple/ Google finally cave in and drops the fee to 20%, at some point developers again will find it expensive. The fact is that no matter what reasonable measures you do, you cannot please everyone. While Apple/ Google don't seem to be doing much, the store itself brings in the traffic, which is not unlike how a shopping center/ super market operates.

 

[Grigor]

apply dont allow price differencation crossplatfrom, ie. devs cant set a higher price to off set whatever apple is charging.
well you can defense that as a barrier of entrance.
oh btw, i fully support the free market, includeding private courts and private war.

 

[mbeeston]

2 things

1) vbucks are encoded into the game, epic doesn't have to charge for'em, they could give everyone playing 1billion right now for no money and 5 minutes on a keyboard, so they don't need to charge that much for'em.. that could make 1000Vbucks $1.00 use and have apple charge'em .30 and PROVE they aren't greedy, but ask if they'll do that.

2) isn't kinda funny that epic got over a billion dollars from others just before they did this? wonder how many other companies are in this to take apple and google down for their own interests >.>

 

[INSTG8R]

Again:

And 30% is pretty much the ”standard“ it seems for most of the big players. So it’s not just Apple or Google I mean Steam is 30% and that was Epic initial push with EGS abd taking a way smaller cut and I guess to a degree it’s worked for them but they’ve also thrown a lot of money at Devs to get them on EGS like giving away Troy free on release which is almost unheard of but I’m sure it wasn’t cheap either. I recall another Dev that jumped to EGS was basically paid enough money they didn’t have sell a singlue copy and had already covered their costs.
So I don’t know what Epics real goal is they have their own wheeling a dealing, why the 30% has suddenly become “unreasonable” despite being the “going rate” and it’s not like they are hurting for cash or are some small Dev trying to get out there.

 

[geon2k2]

What if all developers will boycott apple, and leave them with the hardware and the OS only?
If they did this to Epic, especially the engine which broke no rules, what would stop them to do the same to anybody else?

They are abusing they monopolistic position on the app store.

I don't see how this will end well for apple.

 

[Vayra86]

Nah, it's just that all these companies, Apple, Epic, etc are money grubbing POS. Pardon my french.

Exactly right, and its great to see them use that money to fight among themselves and create a more balanced space for everyone.

That's competition.

Still rooting for Epic here. You can see they're serious about this and the push is absolutely necessary against these giants. Will Epic be the next evil distributor? Maybe so... and then its time for the next one to shake things up. But that 30% cut isn't coming back and that is a big, big win for everyone and a straight budget cut for the top-end, which was long overdue.

Even if Epic loses this one, the movement is there.

This guy contradicts himself with every word he spews.

Still failing completely to make the distinction between an app and the gatekeeper of all apps, I see.

Keep crusading, in the land of the blind.

What if all developers will boycott apple, and leave them with the hardware and the OS only?
If they did this to Epic, especially the engine which broke no rules, what would stop them to do the same to anybody else?

They are abusing they monopolistic position on the app store.

I don't see how this will end well for apple.

Yep. Its a bit like Belarus right now... powers that be seem to have it all under control... until all of a sudden all of it is gone. its a matter of faith and the comparison couldn't be better really, Apple is the same sort of dictatorship over what gets out and at what price. Google is no different, because sideloading is opening up to malicious software as well. Its a non-discussion to defend that as an equal chance.

 

[medi01]

You are free to vote with your wallet

That's not how a free country works

That's what Rockefeller said.

Do you mean this one?

Yes. Note how it was "religion" defense, he would have had his ass handed to him otherwise.

Epic don't have a leg to stand on. They violated the terms of their contract because they got greedy.

My mind explodes, when someone dares mention Apple and anyone slightly less evil than Hitler in one sentence, and find that other side to be worse.
Are you FOR F**KING REAL?

If EPIC wins, it will be a win for a horde of developers. (It is not clear how hard their case is, I'm pretty sure Spotify wins in EU)
If they lose, it's a win by a filthy corporation that barely pays more income taxes, than an average grocery store in a small town, that just wants its cut from anything.

Win for assholes who banned Stadia and Microsoft streaming from their platform, as they have some plans to take a cut even from that.

What if all developers will boycott apple, and leave them with the hardware and the OS only?

Brilliant plan.
What if people refused to by from The Standard Oil (which was doing things that were totally legal, mind you)?
Remind me, how that worked.

 

[Crackong]

If EPIC wins, it will be a win for a horde of developers. (It is not clear how hard their case is, I'm pretty sure Spotify wins in EU)

If EPIC wins,
Will EPIC give 100% cut to the developers on EPIC Game Store ?

 

[medi01]

Will EPIC give 100% cut to the developers on EPIC Game Store ?

What does current discussion have ANYTHING to do with EPIC game store?
And if you were asking "are there any restrictions on how to sell stuff in a game, which was downloaded from EPIC game store", no, not even on Steam.
And even if it WAS NOT THE CASE it doesn't change anything at all, even if Sweeny is involved in slave trade, sex trafficing, child pornography, a genocide, serial murders, and rapes, it DOESN'T CHANGE A DAMN THING in discussion about Apple's practices. How freaking broken you line of thinking is, dear god...

 

[Crackong]

What does current discussion have ANYTHING to do with EPIC game store?
And if you were asking "are there any restrictions on how to sell stuff in a game, which was downloaded from EPIC game store", no, not even on Steam.
And even if it WAS NOT THE CASE it doesn't change anything at all, even if Sweeny is involved in slave trade, sex trafficing, child pornography, a genocide, serial murders, and rapes, it DOESN'T CHANGE A DAMN THING in discussion about Apple's practices. How freaking broken you line of thinking is, dear god...

Exaggerated wordings won't strengthen your point, if there is any.

Bypassing the platform's cut for in-app purchase = Freemium game developer gets 100% revenue.

If EPIC really support 100% to developer, why not apply it to its own EPIC game store ?

If EPIC itself is doing the same practice as Apple / Google store, none of this lawsuit is justified, it is just EPIC's Greed here.

 

[Vayra86]

Exaggerated wordings won't strengthen your point, if there is any.

If EPIC itself is doing the same practice as Apple / Google store, none of this lawsuit is justified, it is just EPIC's Greed here.

Epic is not doing the same because it is not operating on the same level with the same power of enforcement over a platform. What Epic is actually fighting for, is to create that level playing field they DONT have right now. And no, they can't somehow get it either.

People keep yelling EGS is 'a platform'... but its a store application and not device specific. Any competitor can compete with EGS by offering a similar cut on distribution costs, or undercut them, and offer a similar service. That is what EGS did wrt Steam, as well.

Apple and Google's Store applications however are far more than that. They are a gateway, that allows curated and verified (safe!) content on mobile devices. These mobile devices have no other safe (verified) way to access apps. In Apple's case, that's a hard restriction and in Google's case, it requires active opt-in and user risk to circumvent the restriction. Its clearly advanced user territory and its obvious general consumer public won't be happy going there. Its not something Google encourages either.

I don't know what's so hard to grasp here, but apparently red EGS haze has people confused, for quite a while now. First EGS was a walled garden and this was bad, now its the same as a Play Store which the same detractors use every day. Do you even logic? Its like bad car comparisons. Wow.

 

[eLJay88]

Exactly right, and its great to see them use that money to fight among themselves and create a more balanced space for everyone.

That's competition.

Still rooting for Epic here. You can see they're serious about this and the push is absolutely necessary against these giants. Will Epic be the next evil distributor? Maybe so... and then its time for the next one to shake things up. But that 30% cut isn't coming back and that is a big, big win for everyone and a straight budget cut for the top-end, which was long overdue.

Epic takes a smaller cut. But then again it has an ecosystem that is in no way comparable tot GoG, Steam, App & Playstore. So the cut is less, but the reach and functionality of it's ecosystem is far inferior than other platforms. EPIC already is an evil distributor. Luckily this lawsuit proves that to everyone.

EGS is literally nothing more then a storefront and a hosting service. Litteraly nothing more then that, all the other platforms are an ecosystem. The only part of EGS I could call an ecosystem is the discount you get when using UE.

So yes I do pay more taxes in the Netherlands (Steam) then i.e. Zimbabwe(EGS). But i actually love paying that since i get so much in return.
EGS prices are seldom cheaper then steam even though it takes a smaller cut.

 

[demian_vi]

Most people defendig Apple and criticising Epic would hate to be forced to use the Microsoft Store to buy their PC games instead of their beloved Steam (which is the main reason they hate Epic in the first place)

 

[medi01]

If EPIC really support 100% to developer, why not apply it to its own EPIC game store ?

Who told you of EPIC taking cut from in-game purchases? You are responding to a post that stated THE OPPOSITE, neither EPIC nor Steam does that.

Epic takes a smaller cut.

EPIC's "payment system" takes a small cut, IF YOU USE IT. Which you are not forced to use.

But i actually love paying that since

Since you hate that other company so much.

Ecosystem, my arse. We are talking about puny software stores with laughable upkeep.

Again:

It's not enough that braindead are posting here, we need some lies mixed in, to make this thread even more epic (no pun intended).

 

[ExcuseMeWtf]

If EPIC wins, it will be a win for a horde of developers. (It is not clear how hard their case is, I'm pretty sure Spotify wins in EU)
If they lose, it's a win by a filthy corporation that barely pays more income taxes, than an average grocery store in a small town, that just wants its cut from anything.

As if EPIC themselves weren't a corporation
And as someone else noted, 40% owned by absolute behemoth called Tencent

 

[Chrispy_]

My mind explodes, when someone dares mention Apple and anyone slightly less evil than Hitler in one sentence, and find that other side to be worse.
Are you FOR F**KING REAL?

Congratulations on applying Godwin's Law.

But yes, I am for real. This is a lawsuit - and by law Epic is the guilty party here. Epic are using Apple's property and agreed to Apple's terms. Epic violated those terms and were kicked off the platform. If they want to use the platforms that Apple or Google created, they need to abide by Apple or Google's rules. It's one of the few cases where something is actually pretty black and white, legally.

Let's say I build something unique that you want to use. I agree to let you use it if you follow my rules, but you break those rules, so I stop you from using my thing.

That is all this is; Sweeny at Epic is throwing a tantrum because he doesn't like the rules. It doesn't matter that Apple and Google are greedy and it doesn't matter if you or I like or dislike Apple or Google. Their rules are binding, legally. Unless Sweeney has found a technicality in the agreements he signed with Apple and Google that prove Apple and Google broke the terms of their contracts first, Sweeny/Epic are at legal fault here. Like I said before, black-and-white certainty that Sweeny will lose his lawsuit because he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I can only assume that Sweeny hopes the publicity of this (losing) case is enough to poke a wider anti-competitive investigation into the Google/Apple ecosystems. That, however is tentative at best, and unrelated to this particular pair of lawsuits against Apple and Google.