Epic vs Apple: Microsoft Files in Support of Epic Games

[Raevenlord]

In the ongoing turf war between Epic Games and Apple, the game and engine development company has now signed a powerful ally to its side: Microsoft. In an announcement via Twitter, XBOX vice president Phil Spencer announced that Microsoft had filed a statement in support of Epic's lawsuit against Apple - specifically, regarding the maintenance of Unreal Engine resources, tools, and developer credentials in the Apple store. This comes weeks after the battle royale between Apple and Epic begun, and after Epic started a social media and industry-wide call for support among consumers and corporations alike.

While the merits on Epic's initial move and subsequent lawsuit against Apple may be up for debate, and it's likely that any court of law will say that Epic clearly intended to breach contract terms they had already accepted when distributing Fortnite through the Apple Store, this second one has a much higher amount of O2 to breathe. Apple terminating the Unreal Engine affiliation with its store and development capabilities can potentially send a ripple effect throughout the entire games industry, whether in already-shipped games, currently in development ones, or future development intentions. That Microsoft themselves backed Epic on this particular issue goes to show just how wide a net this conflict is escalating towards.



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[Vayra86]

Haha this is definitely going to be an EPIC battle.

So MS agrees 30% is a lost cause as well. I think this battle has just swung to Sweeneys favor. Even if they lose this will work like democracy. No company wants to feel like the odd one out. Its soon going to be much more viable to get a lower cut anyway.

 

[medi01]

Judge has already told Apple to FO with Unreal Engine ban for now, kept Fortnight ban.

EPIC's claims:

Apple unlawfully maintains its monopoly power in the iOS App Distribution Market through the anti-competitive acts described herein, including by imposing technical and contractual restrictions on iOS, which prevents the distribution of iOS apps through means other than the App Store and prevents developers from distributing competing app stores to iOS users.
Apple unlawfully maintains its monopoly power in the iOS App Distribution Market through its unlawful denial to Epic and other app distributors of an essential facility—access to iOS—which prevents them from competing in the iOS App Distribution Market.
To reach iOS users, Apple forces developers to agree to Apple’s unlawful terms contained in its Developer Agreement and to comply with Apple’s App Store Review Guidelines, including the requirement iOS developers distribute their apps through the App Store. These contractual provision unlawfully foreclose the iOS App Distribution Market to competitors and maintain Apple’s monopoly.
Apple has unlawfully maintained its monopoly in these markets through the anti-competitive acts alleged herein, including by forcing, through its contractual terms and unlawful policies, iOS app developers that sell in-app content to exclusively use Apple’s In-App Purchase, and preventing and discouraging app developers from developing or integrating alternative payment processing solutions.
To reach iOS app users, Apple forces developers to agree to Apple’s unlawful terms contained in its Developer Agreement, including that they use Apple’s InApp Purchase for in-app purchases of in-app content to the exclusion of any alternative solution or third-party payment processor. Further, Section 3.1.3 of Apple’s App Store Review Guidelines unlawfully prohibits developers from “directly or indirectly target[ing] iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase”.
Apple is able to unlawfully condition access to the App Store on the developer’s use of a second product—In-App Purchase—for in-app sales of in-app content. Through its Developer Agreement and unlawful policies, Apple expressly conditions the use of its App Store on the use of its In-App Purchase to the exclusion of alternative solutions in a per se unlawful tying arrangement.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

Just Google consumer law.

Apple's terms of service clearly violates consumer laws.

 

[silkstone]

I'm glad Microsoft are supporting them. I mean . . . Imagine if the shoe were on the other foot and it were devices with windows that had to use one store and pay the applicable tax to Microsoft.
It should ultimately be up to the consumer what they want to put on their device and how they install it. It's not Epics fault that Apple do not allow them to install programs/games any other way.

 

[Ashtr1x]

EGS Tencent wants 30% cut to be gone forever and the platform owners lose the control over their distribution this is b.s because if they lose that control they won't have enough QC imho. EGS is too greedy, they are top class aholes in the industry by bribing the developers for exclusivity, these double standard EGS tencent needs to be shoved hard. Apple is no saint but this time EGS needs the boot, that fartnite money is stopped now. Ofc MS is joining this because their Xcloud GaaS got shoved on Apple platform and they don't even have any distribution channel other than their bloatware garbage Xbox services in Windows and UWP dumpster.

EGS drama says more powah to consumer, what a joke. Consumer will end up paying same or even more not less. Pure B.S from this Tencent garbage.

 

[huguberhart]

Do you remember the Tim Sweeney post about the Windows S (?) edition? Now, they are together.

 

[bonehead123]

"History teaches us that history teaches us nothing" - General George S. Patton

Here we go again

 

[silkstone]

EGS Tencent wants 30% cut to be gone forever and the platform owners lose the control over their distribution this is b.s because if they lose that control they won't have enough QC imho. EGS is too greedy, they are top class aholes in the industry by bribing the developers for exclusivity, these double standard EGS tencent needs to be shoved hard. Apple is no saint but this time EGS needs the boot, that fartnite money is stopped now. Ofc MS is joining this because their Xcloud GaaS got shoved on Apple platform and they don't even have any distribution channel other than their bloatware garbage Xbox services in Windows and UWP dumpster.

EGS drama says more powah to consumer, what a joke. Consumer will end up paying same or even more not less. Pure B.S from this Tencent garbage.

Why not let the customer decide?
If they want to be able to use the Apple store for all purchases, then they can, but if they want to use another storefront/app to install games/programs, then why not?

 

[Ashtr1x]

Why not let the customer decide?
If they want to be able to use the Apple store for all purchases, then they can, but if they want to use another storefront/app to install games/programs, then why not?

Same question back to EGS/Tencent, why exclusivity on PC platform ? They have to be sued by gaming industry for that crap what they shove. Year long excl. and paying millions for sales for a sub par trash platform.

Apple iOS and Google Android - There Android has sideload option and you can authorize own payments there, if you want on Play Store then Google rules, that's how Google apps work and ecosystem is built. EGS was like noo I will sideload my app, but later realized they are going to lose users because of the exposure and wanted Google Play Services benefits but now they want the full cut ? Apple has only one option, a jail but that's the way on how the platform works and publisher controls. What is the choice here ? EGS is B.S they have to get shunned hard, they are too greedy and anti-consumer, hypocrisy BS at finest.

Ask for sideload on Apple, that's true choice which Apple will never authorize in a million years which is where you install games/programs on other storefront and App that doesn't exist in Apple utopia, not this B.S. Consumer pays same amount, EGS snags is higher if they want consumer to pay them directly for IAP/MTX. Having full developer access, platform benefits and want full cut what is this B.S ? It's like I will deploy my game on Steam and it's CDN and all the Valve's server and platform benefits but I want 100% or whatever 80-20 or what they feel is right cut, it's ridiculous. Even GOG takes a cut, ofc it's less than the standard 70-30 but it also has way less powerful and expansive network likes of Steam / Valve and pathetic support.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

Why not let the customer decide?
If they want to be able to use the Apple store for all purchases, then they can, but if they want to use another storefront/app to install games/programs, then why not?

Because Apple's terms of service does not allow this for "secuirty"

 

[silkstone]

Same question back to EGS/Tencent, why exclusivity on PC platform ? They have to be sued by gaming industry for that crap what they shove. Year long excl. and paying millions for sales for a sub par trash platform.

Apple iOS and Google Android - There Android has sideload option and you can authorize own payments there, if you want on Play Store then Google rules, that's how Google apps work and ecosystem is built. EGS was like noo I will sideload my app, but later realized they are going to lose users because of the exposure and wanted Google Play Services benefits but now they want the full cut ? Apple has only one option, a jail but that's the way on how the platform works and publisher controls. What is the choice here ? EGS is B.S they have to get shunned hard, they are too greedy and anti-consumer, hypocrisy BS at finest.

Ask for sideload on Apple, that's true choice which Apple will never authorize in a million years which is where you install games/programs on other storefront and App that doesn't exist in Apple utopia, not this B.S. Consumer pays same amount, EGS snags is higher if they want consumer to pay them directly for IAP/MTX. Having full developer access, platform benefits and want full cut what is this B.S ? It's like I will deploy my game on Steam and it's CDN and all the Valve's server and platform benefits but I want 100% or whatever 80-20 or what they feel is right cut, it's ridiculous. Even GOG takes a cut, ofc it's less than the standard 70-30 but it also has way less powerful and expansive network likes of Steam / Valve and pathetic support.

Sorry, I don't follow. It might be a language issue, but I don't fully understand the argument of why you can't let the customer decide how they want to install games/apps on the devices that they own?
Can you explain in a more concise way? I get you don't like EGS or Epic, but that isn't really relevant to the question. Putting all that aside, why shouldn't a consumer be able to choose different ways of installing/paying for 3rd party apps on their personal devices?

Because Apple's terms of service does not allow this for "secuirty"

From the quotes, I'm guessing that's sarcasm around "security". Surely it should still be up to the consumer how "secure" they want to make their device. I mean, Microsoft could do this too, right? Only allow apps to be installed through the windows store to keep windows devices more secure? What would the fallout of that be?

 

[Vayra86]

Sorry, I don't follow. It might be a language issue, but I don't fully understand the argument of why you can't let the customer decide how they want to install games/apps on the devices that they own?
Can you explain in a more concise way? I get you don't like EGS or Epic, but that isn't really relevant to the question. Putting all that aside, why shouldn't a consumer be able to choose different ways of installing/paying for 3rd party apps on their personal devices?



From the quotes, I'm guessing that's sarcasm around "security". Surely it should still be up to the consumer how"secure" they want to make their device.

Its different even from aconsumer law point of view. What Apple needs to facilitate along with Google is not just access or a gate into the walled garden, but one that allows for free markets to work proper. They will be left with choices; either offer a similar zero risk gateway (not one that exposes you to malware) or reduce the service fee to something substantially lower just to cover expenses for necessary infrastructure and security. Everybody knows this is not 30% and should probably even be fixed rate at least in part, as security denands dont change based on popukarity or sales.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

Sorry, I don't follow. It might be a language issue, but I don't fully understand the argument of why you can't let the customer decide how they want to install games/apps on the devices that they own?
Can you explain in a more concise way? I get you don't like EGS or Epic, but that isn't really relevant to the question. Putting all that aside, why shouldn't a consumer be able to choose different ways of installing/paying for 3rd party apps on their personal devices?



From the quotes, I'm guessing that's sarcasm around "security". Surely it should still be up to the consumer how "secure" they want to make their device. I mean, Microsoft could do this too, right? Only allow apps to be installed through the windows store to keep windows devices more secure? What would the fallout of that be?

Actually it wasn't There is a post about Apple's reply basically said that (I was too lazy to look for it). Yes you are right they can do that but they've already been threw a monopolistic lawsuit once before. I'm sure their experience in that matter help. make their App-store and term of service.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

"History teaches us that history teaches us nothing" - General George S. Patton

Here we go again

"no but this is how it was historically, and we're on the right side of history...." - Patrick Söderlund, 2018

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I’ve read some commentary from small developers on this, and they are frustrated with the narrow view this is getting. One said that this 30% also covers things like “tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more...” Many feel that making exceptions for big companies like Epic is unfair for the small guys. Many equate it to tax codes that benefit those with means. Just be wary of the fact that it’s the mega corps duking it out here and claiming things are unfair. Epic and MS are looking out for themselves, not the welfare of all iOS developers.

I’m not anti-capitalist by any means, but I do believe in being professional, and Epic has been anything but professional. Their behavior reminds me of the worst kind of customers I deal with in my job. The ones that want exceptions at the expense of all my other customers, and they throw tantrums to try to get their way, and threaten legal action because they disagree with policy. It’s not behavior that should be celebrated, IMO.

Whether Epic is on the App Store doesn’t affect me, but what would affect me is if iOS goes from one way to pay to the developer’s choice. Personally, I’m way less likely to hand out my payment info in the latter. I already have to trust that Apple will keep my info secure, and it’s nice to know I don’t have to hand out that info over and over again.

 

[thesmokingman]

I’ve read some commentary from small developers on this, and they are frustrated with the narrow view this is getting. One said that this 30% also covers things like “tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more...” Many feel that making exceptions for big companies like Epic is unfair for the small guys. Many equate it to tax codes that benefit those with means. Just be wary of the fact that it’s the mega corps duking it out here and claiming things are unfair. Epic and MS are looking out for themselves, not the welfare of all iOS developers.

I’m not anti-capitalist by any means, but I do believe in being professional, and Epic has been anything but professional. Their behavior reminds me of the worst kind of customers I deal with in my job. The ones that want exceptions at the expense of all my other customers, and they throw tantrums to try to get their way, and threaten legal action because they disagree with policy. It’s not behavior that should be celebrated, IMO.

Whether Epic is on the App Store doesn’t affect me, but what would affect me is if iOS goes from one way to pay to the developer’s choice. Personally, I’m way less likely to hand out my payment info in the latter. I already have to trust that Apple will keep my info secure, and it’s nice to know I don’t have to hand out that info over and over again.

So you're leaning towards Apple? Really? Look up what Apple did to Wordpress.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

So you're leaning towards Apple? Really? Look up what Apple did to Wordpress.

Where did you get that from my comment? I was sharing commentary from a small developer, and cautioning that this is about big companies fighting with each other. No, I don’t think what Apple did to Wordpress is right, either, but my comment was more about how Epic is doing this wrong. If they thought Apple’s pricing and policies are unfair, then try to resolve it. If Apple doesn’t budge, then remove your content from the store and tell your customers why. Trying to circumvent the system and get banned just makes you look shady. I bet more folks have sympathy for Wordpress than Epic right now.

It does sound like some reform is needed, but it’s a slippery slope as people will find loopholes. If you can make purchases outside of the App Store, then what stops every developer from making their apps free to download with the ability to unlock externally?

Personally, I hate that most mobile games are Freemium. I think that needs just as much reform as any policy Apple has for the App Store.

 

[thesmokingman]

Where did you get that from my comment? I was sharing commentary from a small developer, and cautioning that this is about big companies fighting with each other. No, I don’t think what Apple did to Wordpress is right, either, but my comment was more about how Epic is doing this wrong. If they thought Apple’s pricing and policies are unfair, then try to resolve it. If Apple doesn’t budge, then remove your content from the store and tell your customers why. Trying to circumvent the system and get banned just makes you look shady. I bet more folks have sympathy for Wordpress than Epic right now.

It does sound like some reform is needed, but it’s a slippery slope as people will find loopholes. If you can make purchases outside of the App Store, then what stops every developer from making their apps free to download with the ability to unlock externally?

Personally, I hate that most mobile games are Freemium. I think that needs just as much reform as any policy Apple has for the App Store.

I think the issue is your slanted pov that whatever Apple says is the word. Like you think Epic is the shady one and that is circumventing rules that aren't BS to begin with. Why this all is in the news to begin with starts and ends with Apple. And Wordpress isn't the only app like Epic to get banned like this.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

I think the issue is your slanted pov that whatever Apple says is the word. Like you think Epic is the shady one and that is circumventing rules that aren't BS to begin with. Why this all is in the news to begin with starts and ends with Apple. And Wordpress isn't the only app like Epic to get banned like this.

Sorry, that’s not what I’m saying. I specifically said what Apple did to Wordpress was wrong. If they did it to others, that is wrong too. If reform needs to happen, so be it. If Apple needs to be sued or investigated, so be it. I just don’t see Epic as the benevolent hero here. Epic agreed to those “BS rules” to start with. If they are so offensive, then why put your content on the store to begin with? No, I think your view is the one that is slanted. You apparently think that it’s okay to stop abiding by the terms once you disagree with them. What if Epic thinks its terms with you, the customer, are no longer satisfactory? Can they break those too?

 

[thesmokingman]

Sorry, that’s not what I’m saying. I specifically said what Apple did to Wordpress was wrong. If they did it to others, that is wrong too. If reform needs to happen, so be it. If Apple needs to be sued or investigated, so be it. I just don’t see Epic as the benevolent hero here. Epic agreed to those “BS rules” to start with. If they are so offensive, then why put your content on the store to begin with? No, I think your view is the one that is slanted. You apparently think that it’s okay to stop abiding by the terms once you disagree with them. What if Epic thinks its terms with you, the customer, are no longer satisfactory? Can they break those too?

You're ignoring what you want. Epic did state to Apple that its policies are BS. Apple threatened to ban them. What can Epic do then? Take it in the ass? Apparently you think your customers have to take it in the ass.

There's a baziliion examples like below.

Apple vs. HEY, antitrust, and monopoly

Apple deserves the antitrust scrutiny that they’re getting for their anti-competitive App Store policies.

hey.com

Fed Up With Apple's Policies, App Developers Form a 'Union'

A group identifying itself as The Developers Union worries its members cannot earn a living by writing software built on Apple’s existing values.

www.wired.com

Apple’s App Store fees are “highway robbery,” says House Antitrust Committee chair

Less than a week before WWDC, all hell is breaking loose in Apple’s developer relations.

www.theverge.com

 

[rtwjunkie]

EGS Tencent wants 30% cut to be gone forever and the platform owners lose the control over their distribution this is b.s because if they lose that control they won't have enough QC imho. EGS is too greedy, they are top class aholes in the industry by bribing the developers for exclusivity, these double standard EGS tencent needs to be shoved hard. Apple is no saint but this time EGS needs the boot, that fartnite money is stopped now. Ofc MS is joining this because their Xcloud GaaS got shoved on Apple platform and they don't even have any distribution channel other than their bloatware garbage Xbox services in Windows and UWP dumpster.

EGS drama says more powah to consumer, what a joke. Consumer will end up paying same or even more not less. Pure B.S from this Tencent garbage.

It’s really too bad it’s not Tencent, as well as irrelevant. Keep pushing that fantasy narrative. Do some research on the company’s details.

Now, to the point of the article, this is actually the part of the lawsuit that has the best chance against Apple. The terms of Service for the Unreal Engine were not violated, so Apple removing that and defending it in court will be the exciting part. Major parties like MS willing to back them in proceedings will certainly help Epic.

 

[demian_vi]

EGS Tencent wants 30% cut to be gone forever and the platform owners lose the control over their distribution this is b.s because if they lose that control they won't have enough QC imho. EGS is too greedy, they are top class aholes in the industry by bribing the developers for exclusivity, these double standard EGS tencent needs to be shoved hard. Apple is no saint but this time EGS needs the boot, that fartnite money is stopped now. Ofc MS is joining this because their Xcloud GaaS got shoved on Apple platform and they don't even have any distribution channel other than their bloatware garbage Xbox services in Windows and UWP dumpster.

EGS drama says more powah to consumer, what a joke. Consumer will end up paying same or even more not less. Pure B.S from this Tencent garbage.

all this bubbling is a sign of misery mate. You keep bullshiting about Epic/Tencent, while its Epic and Tencent is just an investor without control. You clearly love paying 30% for everythin to Apple, even though you think they are garbage.

I’ve read some commentary from small developers on this, and they are frustrated with the narrow view this is getting. One said that this 30% also covers things like “tax documentation, billing arrangements in different countries, visibility on the App Store, detailed metrics on usage, and more...” Many feel that making exceptions for big companies like Epic is unfair for the small guys. Many equate it to tax codes that benefit those with means. Just be wary of the fact that it’s the mega corps duking it out here and claiming things are unfair. Epic and MS are looking out for themselves, not the welfare of all iOS developers.

I’m not anti-capitalist by any means, but I do believe in being professional, and Epic has been anything but professional. Their behavior reminds me of the worst kind of customers I deal with in my job. The ones that want exceptions at the expense of all my other customers, and they throw tantrums to try to get their way, and threaten legal action because they disagree with policy. It’s not behavior that should be celebrated, IMO.

Whether Epic is on the App Store doesn’t affect me, but what would affect me is if iOS goes from one way to pay to the developer’s choice. Personally, I’m way less likely to hand out my payment info in the latter. I already have to trust that Apple will keep my info secure, and it’s nice to know I don’t have to hand out that info over and over again.

Who told you that Epic is looking for individual exceptions. they want the 30% cut decreased for everyone. they have already shwon they are pro-developer when they created a new store and introduced lower cut themselves

 

[Vayra86]

Sorry, that’s not what I’m saying. I specifically said what Apple did to Wordpress was wrong. If they did it to others, that is wrong too. If reform needs to happen, so be it. If Apple needs to be sued or investigated, so be it. I just don’t see Epic as the benevolent hero here. Epic agreed to those “BS rules” to start with. If they are so offensive, then why put your content on the store to begin with? No, I think your view is the one that is slanted. You apparently think that it’s okay to stop abiding by the terms once you disagree with them. What if Epic thinks its terms with you, the customer, are no longer satisfactory? Can they break those too?

You made some fantastic points and I can only agree with most of them.

Its a choice of evils. Absolutely. And the elephant in the room is that once again for the umpteenth time market regulation is completely lacking, and a big part of that is the fact that internet is not limited by borders.

This problem is as old as I am by now and still not really fixed. What do you get in lands that have no law and working justice department? You get anarchy, you get warlords fighting each other, and that is what we're seeing here. For each of these multinationals, the pockets run so deep, and the tax they avoid is so rampant, they can do whatever they like. This goes for all players in this game.

Knowing that, my stance on the whole thing is that EGS can enforce a change that will ultimately, hopefully, also lead to new forms or principles of regulation. On the basis of 'it has to escalate before it gets better'. One thing's a given, maintaining a status quo with just a handful of gatekeepers to our most important devices is incredibly wrong and needs a fix. It is in NO way a healthy combination with a free market.

Who told you that Epic is looking for individual exceptions. they want the 30% cut decreased for everyone. they have already shwon they are pro-developer when they created a new store and introduced lower cut themselves

The best business is those deals where everyone feels like they are winning. Make no mistake about long term and strategical agenda, Epic will benefit from this. That does not however exclude the benefits of others, necessarily.

 

[ExcuseMeWtf]

Apple's competitor siding against them? Color me surprised!