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Yes it is. There is literally a mountain of legal code and case law that supports "fair-use". The boys at LTT are not legal experts.Fair use, as LTT says, is not so much as cut & dry.
Yes it is. There is literally a mountain of legal code and case law that supports "fair-use". The boys at LTT are not legal experts.Fair use, as LTT says, is not so much as cut & dry.
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It really, really isn't. That mountain of case law exists exactly because these things are extremely complicated. And a lot of that mountain contradicts other parts of it. Fair use is - and should be - an important legal protection, but it isn't and will never be a simple one.Yes it is. There is literally a mountain of legal code and case law that supports "fair-use". The boys at LTT are not legal experts.
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I guess you've missed the part of our digital age, where publishers and devs pay streamers to play their games (as the cheapest and the most effective route of advertising with highest rate of engagement).If they can get away with it, then music also should be royalty free.
Music and TV industry is broken too. Just look at DMCA it was put together so fast and with so little thought, that even 10 years ago it was considered dated and today it looks ridiculous.But that goes both ways. If a song plays on the radio for ~3 minutes, you listen to it for free for the same time, and the station pays a royalty to the rightsholder for the right to distribute the music.
It is not an excuse. Chess players don't pay royalties to ICF for every public match, tabletop streamers don't pay to Hasbro, Magic the Gathering meetups don't pay Wizzards of The Coast for each event, musicians don't pay every time they use Gibson or Roland gear on stage, basketball players don't pay Nike - Nike pays them etc. etc. etc. I'm not saying it should be wild west for content creators, but simply stating that "give us more money cause it has our name on it" is idiotic way to engage with your potential long-term customers."Free advertising" is a convenient excuse people have made up
ICF Who? Did they invent chess or have lifetime royalties/copyright claim on it? Copyright law is broken IMO but no one who's not invented or is the sole owner of such a game has any rights on whatever sport or game you can think of, the argument doesn't even compute!Chess players don't pay royalties to ICF for every public match
How so? Are the software makers not being paid for the games being played? Are they not receiving additional sales from the side-effect promotion of said games? Streamers are not giving a "raised middle finger" to the devs of said games, they are actively promoting them. Your suggestion is deeply flawed conceptually.As I said: there are many good arguments for reforming our current licensing system for media, but scrapping it outright and making everything a free-for-all under the umbrella of "but it's free advertising!" is a cop-out that is ultimately nothing more than a raised middle finger towards artists everywhere.
LOL!! When was the last time you went to a concert? My guess is never. I have been to many concerts in many nations and bands/artists perform music they didn't create all the time. And they are universally lawfully allowed to do so. Your comment demonstrates very clearly that your understanding of how things work is as flawed as Mr Hutchinson's comment. Not debating with you on this matter again.One way of looking at this: if a musician wants to perform a piece of music live at a concert, but said piece of music was written by another person, they still pay a license.
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I never said we could keep using our current system, in fact I specifically said that it is deeply flawed. I also pointed out that IMO any licensing system like this needs to differentiate between what we could call "professional" and "casual" streaming. This would of course open up a massive debate on how to delineate this, but it needs to happen. That's the fault of Nintendo's system, not that they tried it at all. And fees need to be reasonable. Heck, at least in Norway, the music industry is a pretty good example here - the fees paid for either playing music in public or performing someone else's music are a flat rate, relatively affordable, paid to a centralized organization that ensures artists get their due, and it's a rather open and transparent system. (That is of course a stark difference from the "download a song, get sued for $20 000" approach that the very same industry has also stood for.)Music and TV industry is broken too. Just look at DMCA it was put together so fast and with so little thought, that even 10 years ago it was considered dated and today it looks ridiculous.
It's already screaming to be changed or replaced with more fitting alternative, because not only streamers suffer from this, but also the music/TV industry itself.
Just like with gaming - there are always alternatives. Just like gamers have an option to switch to indie content, streamers and content creators are quickly transitioning to open-domain content or promote other indie creators for the sake of mutual benefit (artists and musicians I mean).
If things go the way they go, big media may collapse on itself at some point.
There are quite a few issues with your comparisons here though. Physical products like shoes and clothes can't be freely copied, and are often usable outside of the play/performance context, meaning that there are more parts to it than just as a tool for doing a specific thing. As such, it has more advertising value than a game does (you can't wear your copy of CoD to school to show that you're a fan, after all). Musicians have close collaborations with instrument makers, and typically spend tons of money on instruments. Instruments are also not mass-market products. Gaming meetups and small scale streaming would to me fall within the same bracket, i.e. one that should obviously not pay royalties - but if someone made a living out of exclusively streaming a small selection of tabletop games, then yes, I think it would be fair for them to pay a modest royalty for that. As for chess ... does the ICF have even the most tenuous claim to ownership over the game? I don't see how they could. And nobody can demand a royalty for something they don't own, after all. But in short, none of your examples are actually the same as a streamer using a game as the basis of creating their stream. That obviously doesn't mean that they don't add very much to the end product (if you're in doubt about that, read my previous posts), but arguing that a game is replaceable in terms of creating the stream doesn't mean that having a game can be replaced - and for professional streaming, that should be licensed.It is not an excuse. Chess players don't pay royalties to ICF for every public match, tabletop streamers don't pay to Hasbro, Magic the Gathering meetups don't pay Wizzards of The Coast for each event, musicians don't pay every time they use Gibson or Roland gear on stage, basketball players don't pay Nike - Nike pays them etc. etc. etc. I'm not saying it should be wild west for content creators, but simply stating that "give us more money cause it has our name on it" is idiotic way to engage with your potential long-term customers.
Streamers already paid for games, and since those games don't include any special commercial licensing clauses, then Alex Hutchinson can go f#$% himself.
Apparently I need to repeat myself:How so? Are the software makers not being paid for the games being played? Are they not receiving additional sales from the side-effect promotion of said games? Streamers are not giving a "raised middle finger" to the devs of said games, they are actively promoting them. Your suggestion is deeply flawed conceptually.
There are so many examples of creators - from musicians to game developers - who end up not making money because people get access to their products in some form for free. There have been quite a few indie developers who have spoken up about their games having more cumulative view time on streams on Twitch and YouTube than playtime on any platform, and that (especially for shorter and more story-driven games) streaming effectively replaces playing, leading to lower sales as the vast majority of people who have seen the game streamed then don't see a reason to buy it and play it for themselves.
Uh ... you know they don't have to tell you that they licence those songs, right? But all major artists do. Minor artists? No, because that would be pointless and harmful to musicians everywhere. Which is exactly why I have repeatedly said that only large-scale, for profit "professional" streaming should be subject to royalties.LOL!! When was the last time you went to a concert? My guess is never. I have been to many concerts in many nations and bands/artists perform music they didn't create all the time. And they are universally lawfully allowed to do so. Your comment demonstrates very clearly that your understanding of how things work is as flawed as Mr Hutchinson's comment. Not debating with you on this matter again.
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Remember, that this is not the issue of piracy. People that stream already paid for their license to use the product and are within their legal boundaries to use it the way they see fit. Video game is a video game. As I said previously, the only thing they can do is create some semblance of personal and commercial licensing for their games in order to get more money out of content creators. But that gives people options, and options are bad when you want to impose control on your consumers. Streaming a song is an equivalent of "sharing a product". Streaming a game is an equivalent of "demonstrating the product". You aren't giving away copies of the game over twitch, and that's a big difference.Physical products like shoes and clothes can't be freely copied, and are often usable outside of the play/performance context, meaning that there are more parts to it than just as a tool for doing a specific thing.
That's not how it works. Big streamers can afford to pay royalties, but they don't have to. If EA says "streaming Apex now costs this much", they'll simply sign a deal with Epic to stream Diabotical or something else. Companies no longer make big hits, big streamers do. I'm not touching on fairness off this situation, I'm just stating the way things are. Things like PUBG, Minecraft, Apex, Among Us, Fortnite, Overwatch would be dead by now, if those people didn't do what they do, and publishers know that. This is why google distanced itself from Hutchinson's opinions, and this is why mass media took it so badly.Which is exactly why I have repeatedly said that only large-scale, for profit "professional" streaming should be subject to royalties.
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I am familiar with product placement as that is all it is when promoted by the developers.I guess you've missed the part of our digital age, where publishers and devs pay streamers to play their games (as the cheapest and the most effective route of advertising with highest rate of engagement).
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I agree that developers have complete control on what they want to do with the digital contents, and they are also completely right to have any FUTURE release of any form of their content starting to charge royalties. Streamer/People will vote with their money.I am familiar with product placement as that is all it is when promoted by the developers.
But when streamers take it upon themselves to show content without permission for the sake of revenue, then royalties should be paid.
People that argue against it and tell others with opposing views to pull their head out of their arse, need to broaden their view and consider the bigger picture, just because they believe their viewpoint, doesn't make them right.
Streamers worried about getting their content pulled because they used music they didn't pay for should be more worried by the fact that they're streaming games they didn't pay for as well. It's all gone as soon as publishers decide to enforce it.
-Alex Hutchinson
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... so in a discussion about a proposition of how things ought to work, your stance is "I don't care about how things ought to work, this is how they are". Fatalism at it's finest, that. At least we can be 100% sure that nothing ever gets better if that's the way we approach new problems.Remember, that this is not the issue of piracy. People that stream already paid for their license to use the product and are within their legal boundaries to use it the way they see fit. Video game is a video game. As I said previously, the only thing they can do is create some semblance of personal and commercial licensing for their games in order to get more money out of content creators. But that gives people options, and options are bad when you want to impose control on your consumers. Streaming a song is an equivalent of "sharing a product". Streaming a game is an equivalent of "demonstrating the product". You aren't giving away copies of the game over twitch, and that's a big difference.
That's not how it works. Big streamers can afford to pay royalties, but they don't have to. If EA says "streaming Apex now costs this much", they'll simply sign a deal with Epic to stream Diabotical or something else. Companies no longer make big hits, big streamers do. I'm not touching on fairness off this situation, I'm just stating the way things are. Things like PUBG, Minecraft, Apex, Among Us, Fortnite, Overwatch would be dead by now, if those people didn't do what they do, and publishers know that. This is why google distanced itself from Hutchinson's opinions, and this is why mass media took it so badly.
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Blizzard already tried that and streamers stopped streaming their games. As a result Blizzard has lost a lot of sales, exposure and respect.Expect new game licenses for streamers to be a thing in the next few years. There's a lot of money being made and not enough fingers in the pie.
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Blizzard already tried that and streamers stopped streaming their games. As a result Blizzard has lost a lot of sales, exposure and respect.
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Which is a great example of why something like this can't be implemented willy-nilly by individual developers (or even publishers), but needs to be a thoroughly worked-through system with industry-wide backing, that is also open for anyone and everyone who wants to be a part of it. Anything less than that will be a useless mess.Blizzard already tried that and streamers stopped streaming their games. As a result Blizzard has lost a lot of sales, exposure and respect.
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Exactly correct on every point. Canada and Mexico have similar legal statutes, so it would seem that North America is united in this matter.It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks. The law (in the US at least, which is where I'm basing this comment off, because Google is from here) at least supports streaming as a transformative work. The streamers are not streaming "the game" they are streaming "themselves playing the game." It falls under the same use policy as parody. Copyright law in the US focuses on a few things, but most of all, are you using the copyrighted work in a transformative way, or simply distributing it as is. Whether you make profit is a factor in copyright infringement cases, but not nearly weighted as heavily as transformativeness.
Effectively in the real world, if a game company issues you a cease and desist order, you're going to cease and desist because you can't afford a lawyer as good as they can, and they'll break you financially before it ever gets to a judge. But as others have said, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Streaming has led to more sales in shorter times than any other advertising method in history. But the law is on the side of the streamer.
EU as well. Except that you’ll be less likely to go bankrupt if you decide to see the legal road through.Exactly correct on every point. Canada and Mexico have similar legal statutes, so it would seem that North America is united in this matter.
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Once again, you fail to see my point because you are too focused on your own opinion. Let me rephrase that in a friendlier tone.Fatalism at it's finest, that. At least we can be 100% sure that nothing ever gets better if that's the way we approach new problems.
If Ozzy had a dollar for every public cover of "Crazy Train" and "Iron Man", he'd be wealthier than Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos combined ))))Chances are, if you go to your favorite band's concert and they play a cover song, the artist has had no hand in obtaining licensing