Epic Games Store Keeps Losing Money, Expected Unprofitable Until 2027, Even with a Massive $500 Million Investment Behind It

[BSim500]

Thing is, when you have spent so much money on one system, say steam, and have a lot of games on it, there is pretty much no way any other is going to be anything but secondary. Also if you could get the game on your primary system, steam, chances are, you would. I have hundreds of games on steam, so i primarily only look on there for games.

That may explain why many won't shop elsewhere, but it's also part of PC gaming platform's long-term problem. Prior to 2004, it simply didn't matter where you bought a game from as the discs were the same from Gamestop as they were Electronic Boutique, Amazon, mail order companies the local family run indie store, or even 2nd hand on Ebay / a flea market. No games were artificially crippled to deliberately *not* work when sold by other stores beyond the "first" / largest one. Developers patched their own games directly from their own website (only one patch needed for all stores). In-game achievements (eg, Dragon Age Origins) worked identically on every platform (even DVD-ROM on a 100% offline machine).

Then in 2004, along came Steam. "Online distribution" of games themselves (instead of patches) may have been "revolutionary" but the decision to start locking 3rd party (non Valve) games (then later on features that really should have been in-game) to the store that sold them was and still is massively anti-consumer regardless of how "convenient" some deem it. The equivalent of Walmart "being first" to sell DVD's but instead of just selling neutral discs & Sony / LG, etc, players, they instead specially made their own deliberately incompatible Walmart DVD player that required discs to be specially mastered just for it would have set up an artifically high barrier to entry for every following store, massively increased workload for studios having to remaster new versions per store, and made the market a huge mess for real competition. That's post 2004 PC gaming in a nutshell where even very pro-consumer stores like GOG are still suffering from store-front tribalism (aka "No Steam, No Buy" cult like attitudes) that were 100% started by Valve back in 2004.

People bitch & moan about needing more than 1 client and yet Epic's exclusives have actually reminded people that forcing the use of any client (and underlying DRM enforcement) negatively affects everyone and has done so all along since 2004. "Captive audiences" are only re-noticing it more now because a game is not on "their" store. Now we're also seeing some of that turn the modding community gradually toxic where formerly platform neutral free mods on Nexus, etc, are being "gated" being Steam Client paywalls, which very definitely isn't what the open modding community is or ever was about, but the same people up in arms over Epic's exclusives will shrug at Steam Workshop exclusive mods because it's "my store", not "their store", little different to the tribal bullsh*t we see on consoles. So whilst I don't like Epic's exclusives myself, my response to anyone pushing "Epic exclusives are so anti-consumer" simultaneously with "No Steam, No Buy. Steam Workshop exclusive mods are great" is "Cry me a river..."

 

[Kohl Baas]

Well, I -as a gamer- have only one problem with EGS. The fact that they use a single server for everything, that the launcher is basically a beefed up explorer opening the webpage. I mean Steam has different server-blocks for social, store, login and whatnot. When GTA5 was free on EGS, I literall was unable to sign in and play my previously installed games. Now that is a technical WTF from me. With Steam you can have the whole Store and Social rotten down, still be able to loging in and play. Not to mention offline gaming, which is -afaik- nonexistent at EGS.

As for the concerns chineese will hatvest my data, 'murica doing the same en-mass via Steam, Origin, uPay, Google, Facebook and whatnot. I'm manipulated on a daily basis via methods most people can't even comprehed.

Fearing the chineese looks ironic from that perspective...

 

[zlobby]

Funny how some people prefer Steam monopoly.

It's not about Steam winning, it's about what those shady b-tards deserve, aka losing.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

wow didn't realise my posts would get the dummys flying. /out

 

[BSim500]

A couple of things that's nice about EGS games is that I don't even have to sign into the launcher or use the launcher. I just go to the game folder and click on the exe. Another thing is the game will launch even if my internet is down by doing this.

Someone on GOG is maintaining a DRM-Free games on Epic spreadsheet about this (that work without any launcher) which includes a sizeable number of the freebies. There's also an open-source alternative to the Epic launcher itself:-
Legendary - https://github.com/derrod/legendary
Heroic - https://github.com/Heroic-Games-Launcher/HeroicGamesLauncher

 

[Selaya]

[ ... ]IMO, that monopoly can't possibly be legally defensible, seeing how smartphones are general-purpose computers (unlike, say, consoles). Even locking them down to a single source of applications is deeply problematic.

Phones are not general-purpose computers precisely because of that, though. And I am rather afraid that it'll remain like that.

 

[AusWolf]

It doesn't surprise me. Their shady practice of making games exclusive (for the first year after release) made a lot of people turn away from them. Not to mention the allegedly spartan interface compared to Steam.

If Epic want to be successful with their store, they'll need to realise that people don't need another generic online storefront. There's way too many of them already. Instead, they should find and integrate a service into their client that people actually use to make their app attractive instead of mandatory. Expecting a profit without innovation is arrogance.

You want Steam because of their vast game selection and/or community and modding services.
You want Origin because that's where EA games are found.
You want GOG because it's DRM-free.
You want Epic because... ?

 

[Vayra86]

It doesn't surprise me. Their shady practice of making games exclusive (for the first year after release) made a lot of people turn away from them. Not to mention the allegedly spartan interface compared to Steam.

If Epic want to be successful with their store, they'll need to realise that people don't need another generic online storefront. There's way too many of them already. Instead, they should find and integrate a service into their client that people actually use to make their app attractive instead of mandatory. Expecting a profit without innovation is arrogance.

2027 isn't exactly arrogant though then is it, if anything it shows they're in the game for real.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Looked at many of these free games not many were worth the disk space pretty much looked like floppy disk era games at best.

 

[AusWolf]

2027 isn't exactly arrogant though then is it, if anything it shows they're in the game for real.

What it shows me is that they would rather wait than innovate. It's the "rich and lazy" approach.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

It doesn't surprise me. Their shady practice of making games exclusive (for the first year after release) made a lot of people turn away from them. Not to mention the allegedly spartan interface compared to Steam.

If Epic want to be successful with their store, they'll need to realise that people don't need another generic online storefront. There's way too many of them already. Instead, they should find and integrate a service into their client that people actually use to make their app attractive instead of mandatory. Expecting a profit without innovation is arrogance.

You want Steam because of their vast game selection and/or community and modding services.
You want Origin because that's where EA games are found.
You want GOG because it's DRM-free.
You want Epic because... ?

I have to admit, I was initially excited about Metro Exodus after the first two games but i lost interest after having to wait an extra year for it before it came to steam. Now i have no intention of buying it unless its super mega heavily discounted.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

Even with the amounts of good karma EGS gained giving dozens (hundreds?) of games for free, and actively funding indie studio game development projects, somehow many people still view it as evil incarnate. Astounding how this stupid double standard with Valve's steam keeps existing.

Anyone with half a brain knows where this is going, Epic wont lose money forever, and when they want more it will be coming from your pockets in the form of higher prices, further vendor lock in, and further scraping of personal data. While Valve is investing millions into fixing linux's problems and developing hardware like steamVR and the Steam Deck, EGS is trying to bribe players into using its store while still not implementing basic, often requested features, despite the hundreds of millions they are somehow losing on the service. Anytime someone points this out, the response from the peanut gallery is always "you love monopolies" or "why do you hate competition", which is plain disingenuous.

 

[qubit]

The suit isn't about Apple's 30% App Store cut, but their monopoly on in-app purchases (and in part their unequal treatment of various types of apps in this regard - there are significant exemptions) and their further 30% cut of these. IMO, that monopoly can't possibly be legally defensible, seeing how smartphones are general-purpose computers (unlike, say, consoles). Even locking them down to a single source of applications is deeply problematic.

Of course it’s about the 30% cut. Epic want to run their own app store within their apps specifically to cut out Apple, which goes against their contract.

I think you’ll find that Apple’s contract is defensible too, as often what’s legally possible isn’t morally right. And is this immoral? That’s debatable.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Funny how some people prefer Steam monopoly.

Funny how some people think Steam has a monopoly...

Uplay has the best optimized launcher/smoothness/library/points RPG system for in-game rewards you can't buy with real money, makes me WANT TO DO ACHIEVEMENTS (unlike Steam which I just ignore achievements there)
Steam has best social/UI (I love Small Mode)
Origin is a resource hog and a shame on the industry
Epic Games gives me free games so I'm cool with that
GoG let's me snuggle at night in comfort in-case there is an apocalypse, as long as I have solar panels and DRM free I will still be ok. Thanks for the snuggles GoG.
Bethesda Launcher was initially required for Gwent card game, so I said **** Gwent card game and went back to
Magic the Gathering Arena launcher is ok, sure is a cash machine of a game though, makes Gaben look like he works for the Red Cross
Battle Net launcher is just a mess, news thrown in your face whether you want it or not, not friendly to end user at all, shame almost as bad as Origin, but only almost.

@lexluthermiester you in particular will like the GoG line

You hit the nail on the head with most of that statement. Never used Bethesda's client so I can't offer opinion on it, but the rest is spot on.
GOG is the best for very obvious reasons.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

The suit isn't about Apple's 30% App Store cut, but their monopoly on in-app purchases (and in part their unequal treatment of various types of apps in this regard - there are significant exemptions) and their further 30% cut of these. IMO, that monopoly can't possibly be legally defensible, seeing how smartphones are general-purpose computers (unlike, say, consoles). Even locking them down to a single source of applications is deeply problematic.

To me, the point Apple is making is that the EGS is not profitable, which counters Epic’s argument that Apple’s fees are way too high. Well no wonder, Epic’s store is “dumping,” selling their product at a loss in order to gain market share. Maybe 30% is too high, but Epic certainly shouldn’t get to set Apple’s pricing scheme, since EGS‘s scheme is losing money.

I also don’t see that consoles and phones are that different. Don’t most consoles have browsers and video and music apps? No one here would dream of using a console as a general purpose computer, but in court, the use distinction isn’t so far apart. You can do many of the same things on both products, just some not as well as others. You can even use a mouse and keyboard on Xbox.

 

[Deleted member 185088]

The more competition the better, with Steam already established it makes sense that competitors have it hard, hopefully Epic won't give up.
On the other hand, I don't like launchers they just make the whole experience awful, download the game and activate it.

 

[RedelZaVedno]

I love Epic... Just keeps bringing free games to my Epic library. 206 free games and counting

 

[wahdangun]

The suit isn't about Apple's 30% App Store cut, but their monopoly on in-app purchases (and in part their unequal treatment of various types of apps in this regard - there are significant exemptions) and their further 30% cut of these. IMO, that monopoly can't possibly be legally defensible, seeing how smartphones are general-purpose computers (unlike, say, consoles). Even locking them down to a single source of applications is deeply problematic.

Of course it’s about the 30% cut. Epic want to run their own app store within their apps specifically to cut out Apple, which goes against their contract.

I think you’ll find that Apple’s contract is defensible too, as often what’s legally possible isn’t morally right. And is this immoral? That’s debatable.

so why microsoft get sued with only including IE in every windows ?

 

[lexluthermiester]

I love Epic... Just keeps bringing free games to my Epic library. 206 free games and counting

And this is why they're losing money. What they need to do is what GOG does(very well), offer a few free titles and then offer a good selection of titles with a deep discount.

 

[skizzo]

This will all consider game libraries are kept on separate disks from the main OS disk!

Ever reinstall Windows and then reload your Steam library? That takes like what, couple mins to go to settings and link up the drives you have your games on. You can be playing games again in minutes!

Now, ever reinstall Windows and then try to reload your Epic Games library? Despite literally every other launcher of the like having this option of "locate installed games" as a standard feature, Epic has for whatever reason not implemented this. What this means is each time you setup a new OS you have to redownload the entire game. Now imagine if you had 100's of games on Epic....Worse yet, imagine yourself being on DSL internet with a capped 3.7Mb/s connection to redownload 2 TBs of games.......lol fuck that!

There is a "workaround" and it's not totally documented well, even by Epic. basically need to start downloading the game again, then pause it (you might have to rename the old/existing install folder because the new install folder will not be created if a folder with the same name already exists, ie, download will not even start!). Then you need to open Task Manager and forcefully close Epic Game Launcher by End Task. Then navigate to where the new download folder was just made and then copy over all the game data from the previous install location. But don't mess with that EG store folder or whatever it is called since that has some info regarding the downloading process, if you mess with it, it will just keep restarting the download from scratch. When you reopen Epic Game Launcher and try to resume the download it will then notice all the new files and more or less goes through the "validation" process that any Steam user would be familiar with (the old trusty "did you validate the files" thing) Even then it may still need to download some more data, but at least its just a small % rather than the whole game.

Ever try moving a game's install location on Steam? Oh, another 1 min task you say? yes, it's simple to right click on a game, and chose a different install location (obviously there is time beyond a min to actually move all the files but that's besides the point!)

Now, every try moving a game's install location on Epic? It's another shit show disaster like the above new OS issue creates. There are a couple non text doc files you need to find and open with a text editor to alter specific folder paths and titles. I don't remember the specific files off the top of my head but it also is not going to be something a regular user will want to do. There is no feature for this in Epic, period. It's another workaround

Ever notice you can close Steam and return to a download later on that same boot, or even shutdown your PC and open Steam later to resume the download? Great and expected feature!

Now, ever try and do that with Epic? oh you can't?! Boo hoo says Epic to all of its users! Why you need to do the force close routine I mentioned above is because you cannot even CLOSE the Epic Game Launcher while downloading as it will literally start the whole download process over from scratch when you try to resume. It doesn't matter if your PC is on the same boot cycle or if you did a power cycle. This is bat shit insane stupid! The work around is doing that silly pause and then force close the program....because that must somehow make it close without going through the commands that would result in the download to start over during the next resume attempt.

Regardless of these workarounds existing, these are major and avoidable flaws in their systems. They really lack user-friendliness and ease of use. Other companies have found ways to implement these things, so Epic needs to find a way to be competitive here and offer the same if not more features rather than less.
Those are the types of reasons I imagine why more people are not utilizing EGS!!!! Luckily I have only made it a couple games deep on Epic before I realized these flaws, so I chose to buy games elsewhere whenever possible. I will be fine purchasing more games from them in the future if they resolved these problems of course

 

[Valantar]

Phones are not general-purpose computers precisely because of that, though. And I am rather afraid that it'll remain like that.

... have you ever used a phone that isn't an iPhone? Android allows you to sideload apps or install third-party app stores. Phones are general-purpose computers precisely because they are made for general purpose use - their elevator pitch is "communication, internet access + various apps and services in your pocket". There is no way to formulate the concept of "smartphone" without accepting that it's a general purpose device. Contrary to game consoles, for example, which are made, sold, and used overwhelmingly to play games (a specific purpose, not a general one), even if they also allow for some other functions ((voice) chat, streaming, some web access, etc.).

It doesn't surprise me. Their shady practice of making games exclusive (for the first year after release) made a lot of people turn away from them. Not to mention the allegedly spartan interface compared to Steam.

If Epic want to be successful with their store, they'll need to realise that people don't need another generic online storefront. There's way too many of them already. Instead, they should find and integrate a service into their client that people actually use to make their app attractive instead of mandatory. Expecting a profit without innovation is arrogance.

You want Steam because of their vast game selection and/or community and modding services.
You want Origin because that's where EA games are found.
You want GOG because it's DRM-free.
You want Epic because... ?

You're still buying into exclusivity deals being "shady"? I just don't see that. They're common. Ubiquitous. Just because Steam has been a monopolist and never had to actually call their exclusivity by name doesn't mean they haven't had exclusive distribution rights to a vast array of games. Pre-EGS, how many games were only on Steam, and not GOG or the other previous general storefronts? Just because Epic went and made it explicit doesn't make it meaningfully different. As for EGS being another "generic online storefront" - isn't that precisely what we'd want? Stores that sell games, compete in pricing and the like, with real competition?

As for your list, here's the continuation:
You want more storefronts because competition has the potential to breed innovation and lower prices, providing benefits to customers, while monopolism does the opposite.

Anyone with half a brain knows where this is going, Epic wont lose money forever, and when they want more it will be coming from your pockets in the form of higher prices, further vendor lock in, and further scraping of personal data. While Valve is investing millions into fixing linux's problems and developing hardware like steamVR and the Steam Deck, EGS is trying to bribe players into using its store while still not implementing basic, often requested features, despite the hundreds of millions they are somehow losing on the service. Anytime someone points this out, the response from the peanut gallery is always "you love monopolies" or "why do you hate competition", which is plain disingenuous.

It's true that Valve has done some good with Linux gaming, and they've also pushed a bit for VR. But compared to the vast profits they've scraped in from Steam? Pennies. Nothing. Seriously. Steam has had a de facto monopoly on PC game sales for more than a decade. What kind of profits do you think they've made in that time? And remember, they've only developed a handful of games in the same span, all the while repeatedly screwing over developers. And like Steam doesn't scrape personal data? Steam absolutely has its benefits. Remote Play is nice. They were relatively early with cloud sync. I guess their social features are good, but Discord beats them hands down. Treating Valve as if we as gamers owe them anything, or that they have gone above and beyond in delivering even close to a sensible return on the staggering 30% of nearly all game sales on PC they've raked in for more than a decade? That's lunacy. We don't owe Steam or Valve our allegiance in any way, shape or form, and we only stand to gain from competition.

Of course it’s about the 30% cut.

Did you read my post? There's a difference between a cut on App Store sales and in-app purchases, which have zero to do with the App Store. Charging a fee for the former is fine (though IMO 30% is stupidly high), but the latter? That's bordering on extortion.

Epic want to run their own app store within their apps specifically to cut out Apple, which goes against their contract.

I think you’ll find that Apple’s contract is defensible too, as often what’s legally possible isn’t morally right. And is this immoral? That’s debatable.

So if the law is immoral we should just leave it at that, and not challenge it? Yeah, sorry, that's a brand of fatalism I'm not particularly interested in buying. And I'm well aware that US regulatory bodies have long since abandoned effective anti-monopolist regulations, but we can still hope that they have some principles. And, given how this case is dragging on and how much effort Apple is putting into it, it hardly seems like this is a cut-and-dry case of contract law, does it?

Also, Epic doesn't want to run an app store, they want to run their own in-app purchase solution. Skins for Fortnite are not apps.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Now, ever try and do that with Epic? oh you can't?! Boo hoo says Epic to all of its users!

That was true, but it was changed some time ago. Downloads now properly pause and can be resumed.

 

[Valantar]

This will all consider game libraries are kept on separate disks from the main OS disk!

Ever reinstall Windows and then reload your Steam library? That takes like what, couple mins to go to settings and link up the drives you have your games on. You can be playing games again in minutes!

Now, ever reinstall Windows and then try to reload your Epic Games library? Despite literally every other launcher of the like having this option of "locate installed games" as a standard feature, Epic has for whatever reason not implemented this. What this means is each time you setup a new OS you have to redownload the entire game. Now imagine if you had 100's of games on Epic....Worse yet, imagine yourself being on DSL internet with a capped 3.7Mb/s connection to redownload 2 TBs of games.......lol fuck that!

There is a "workaround" and it's not totally documented well, even by Epic. basically need to start downloading the game again, then pause it (you might have to rename the old/existing install folder because the new install folder will not be created if a folder with the same name already exists, ie, download will not even start!). Then you need to open Task Manager and forcefully close Epic Game Launcher by End Task. Then navigate to where the new download folder was just made and then copy over all the game data from the previous install location. But don't mess with that EG store folder or whatever it is called since that has some info regarding the downloading process, if you mess with it, it will just keep restarting the download from scratch. When you reopen Epic Game Launcher and try to resume the download it will then notice all the new files and more or less goes through the "validation" process that any Steam user would be familiar with (the old trusty "did you validate the files" thing) Even then it may still need to download some more data, but at least its just a small % rather than the whole game.

Ever try moving a game's install location on Steam? Oh, another 1 min task you say? yes, it's simple to right click on a game, and chose a different install location (obviously there is time beyond a min to actually move all the files but that's besides the point!)

Now, every try moving a game's install location on Epic? It's another shit show disaster like the above new OS issue creates. There are a couple non text doc files you need to find and open with a text editor to alter specific folder paths and titles. I don't remember the specific files off the top of my head but it also is not going to be something a regular user will want to do. There is no feature for this in Epic, period. It's another workaround

Ever notice you can close Steam and return to a download later on that same boot, or even shutdown your PC and open Steam later to resume the download? Great and expected feature!

Now, ever try and do that with Epic? oh you can't?! Boo hoo says Epic to all of its users! Why you need to do the force close routine I mentioned above is because you cannot even CLOSE the Epic Game Launcher while downloading as it will literally start the whole download process over from scratch when you try to resume. It doesn't matter if your PC is on the same boot cycle or if you did a power cycle. This is bat shit insane stupid! The work around is doing that silly pause and then force close the program....because that must somehow make it close without going through the commands that would result in the download to start over during the next resume attempt.

Regardless of these workarounds existing, these are major and avoidable flaws in their systems. They really lack user-friendliness and ease of use. Other companies have found ways to implement these things, so Epic needs to find a way to be competitive here and offer the same if not more features rather than less.
Those are the types of reasons I imagine why more people are not utilizing EGS!!!! Luckily I have only made it a couple games deep on Epic before I realized these flaws, so I chose to buy games elsewhere whenever possible. I will be fine purchasing more games from them in the future if they resolved these problems of course

Wait, you can't pause downloads in EGS? Have you used the storefront since it launched? 'Cause I've done that quite a bit.

Also, that workaround you're mentioning is wrong. The procedure is: move/rename game folders, start game install, pause it, copy/rename games back to install location, resume install. No force close, to application restart, nothing like that. Is it hacky? Absolutely. Is Steam's solution far superior? No doubt. But you're making it look far worse than it is.

 

[skizzo]

That was true, but it was changed some time ago. Downloads now properly pause and can be resumed.

unless it's been fixed like within the last couple weeks I beg to differ. though I should clarify, I never said they cannot be paused and resumed (because you are right, you can pause and then resume, as long as you don't close the launcher). I said you cannot CLOSE THE LAUNCHER (which means you cannot shutdown/restart your PC either) and then resume. closing the launcher literally cancels the download. I'm on slow internet and do not always like leaving my PC on for days straight to download a 120GB game. it is a painful experience compared to Steam and other launchers/stores!

Wait, you can't pause downloads in EGS? Have you used the storefront since it launched? 'Cause I've done that quite a bit.

Also, that workaround you're mentioning is wrong. The procedure is: move/rename game folders, start game install, pause it, copy/rename games back to install location, resume install. No force close, to application restart, nothing like that. Is it hacky? Absolutely. Is Steam's solution far superior? No doubt. But you're making it look far worse than it is.

Speaking from experience, yes, that is exactly how I had to do it. I absolutely had to do the force close. I tried it several ways, ie, just "X"ing the window, or as Epic documented, to right click the tray icon and select quit....even that didn't work. Found some forum post saying do force close and that worked for me. It's a mess as this suggests the same methods may not even work for all

 

[Sybaris_Caesar]

I'm pre-stating my bias. I love Steam. I love the community features (Workshop, Market). Collecting trading cards and badges for my favourite games. I love engaging in Steam forums, uploading artwork/screenshots. I love the store pages. User defined tags in store pages and other details. And most importantly USER REVIEWS. I also love the Steam overlay. Let's me look up anything on the shitty chromium browser. Let's me see what my friends are playing on the friends list so I can go join them.

If Epic thinks they can entice me to their launcher without even feature parity with Steam by just throwing millions of dollars around, they can think again. Sure I greedily picked up almost all of their free games. But that's because I hope that if they ever kill their store, they might give back Steam keys.