Epic Games Store Keeps Losing Money, Expected Unprofitable Until 2027, Even with a Massive $500 Million Investment Behind It

[BSim500]

Steam was the first online store / game launcher that made a real impact on gaming. There was no exclusivity - they were simply the first.

"Steam never did timed exclusives" actually isn't true:-

"We are very happy to announce the launch of Darwinia on Steam. Introversion has teamed up with Valve to release Darwinia on their online games distribution platform making it available to millions of new gamers. As part of the launch and Steam's exclusivity, we will no longer be offering Darwinia as a download option from our site, although it will still be possible to purchase shipped boxed copies. At Valve's request we will also be removing the demo from our site for about a month." - Original Nov 15th, 2005 announcement that's still up on Introversions own website.

^ It may have been for a month instead of a year, but for some of the first batch of 3rd party games that came to Steam in 2005, Valve did actually demand that those 3rd party publishers not sell digital versions of their own games anywhere else but Steam (even direct sales on their own website) and on top of that, even take down their own free playable demos from their own websites for a period.

 

[Hargema]

Uplay has the best optimized launcher/smoothness/library/points RPG system for in-game rewards you can't buy with real money, makes me WANT TO DO ACHIEVEMENTS (unlike Steam which I just ignore achievements there)
Steam has best social/UI (I love Small Mode)
Origin is a resource hog and a shame on the industry
Epic Games gives me free games so I'm cool with that
GoG let's me snuggle at night in comfort in-case there is an apocalypse, as long as I have solar panels and DRM free I will still be ok. Thanks for the snuggles GoG.
Bethesda Launcher was initially required for Gwent card game, so I said **** Gwent card game and went back to
Magic the Gathering Arena launcher is ok, sure is a cash machine of a game though, makes Gaben look like he works for the Red Cross
Battle Net launcher is just a mess, news thrown in your face whether you want it or not, not friendly to end user at all, shame almost as bad as Origin, but only almost.

@lexluthermiester you in particular will like the GoG line

Thanks for sharing, I find it pretty insightful in terms of how launchers are generally viewed.

 

[tvamos]

I got so many free games on epic that I felt I need to support them and bought 3 games there. I'm over 100 games on egs already.

 

[lexluthermiester]

That's an excellent list, thanks

I know I'm contributing to this loss, as I've not purchased a single item, but have about 2 dozen games in my library...

I've purchased a few in my Epic library, but only on sale. Less than a third of those titles were free.

 

[ymbaja]

Thing is, when you have spent so much money on one system, say steam, and have a lot of games on it, there is pretty much no way any other is going to be anything but secondary. Also if you could get the game on your primary system, steam, chances are, you would.

I have hundreds of games on steam, so i primarily only look on there for games.

You make a valid point, but this is why profitability is still a few years out. You think the 7 year olds are going to Steam?

Epic is building a new customer base on the younger generation, not trying to convert existing Steam users.

 

[Selaya]

[ ... ]

As for "good luck downloading .apks by themselves" - that really isn't hard. Here's the Amazon App store in .apk form: link. You can install that on any Android phone by enabling installing apps from third party sources. And you can then (or with any other third party app store, of which there are quite a few) install and update any number of apps without needing a google account. I never said that downloading individual application .apks was a viable solution, though there are sites offering that too if that's what you want. That of course means no auto-updates or anything like that.

That's the theory of course, which is all fair enough but the problem is, once you're past the few mainstream apps there really isn't any way around Google. Trust me, I've tried it before (admittedly awhile ago), there were plenty of apps that I could find nowhere in any of the alternative app stores, or if I could, they were more often than not of such an age that they were no longer useful.

Regarding your second paragraph: what are you talking about? You brought up developer tools as an option for sideloading apps on iOS. I showed why it's not equivalent to doing so on Android. Whether or not someone has abused said tools for some other purpose is entirely irrelevant. You still need a developer account to enable them on iOS, and you still don't on Android.

See the above, but: While Android isn't a hard monopoly like iOS it is still a soft de facto one given the fact that a sizeable portion of apps cannot be sourced from anywhere besides Google. (Things might've changed in the meanwhile tho, I haven't really touched a phone for a few years now, and I'm kinda trying to keep it like that. Correct me if I'm mistaken here.)

And again, you're entirely entitled to not liking app stores and stuff like that, but I really don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever to whether smartphones are general-purpose computers or not.

Agree to disagree then. I cannot consider them general-purpose computers given the current state of the phone ecosystem.

If anything, what you're arguing for is that OEMs have no right to lock down their devices to a single app store - which is precisely my point.

Partially. (I would, of course 100% agree to that statement in itself. Whether that will come to pass however, harder to tell. My gut says [x] no, but again I digress) Ultimatively, my point is that you shouldn't need a fucking app store at all. I certainly don't need one on my PC.

 

[mechtech]

Steam gives away a game sometimes and so does GOG but Epic is giving away 2 games every week. That's a lot of games. They are giving away A Plague Tale: Innocence right now which is supposed to be a good game. That's a $40 game on Steam.



The 3 main reasons that gamers cite when they are criticizing EGS is Epic's policy about making games exclusive to EGS. Their store isn't as feature rich as Steam. Their ties to Tencent in China (they fear their personal info will be harvested by the Chinese Government). None of these really bother me.

I find their platform kinda stinks and is a resource hog. Steam friends/voice chat works really well for me and my friends. So that’s what we use. I don’t need or want 10 different platforms all running on my pc together. On top of that steam has been out so long 99% of my games are on it. Tough market to break into.

 

[etayorius]

Love Steam. I have probably spent like $200 USD overall of my own cash into buying games, and i own over 550 games with most of the good AAA games that i own have been gifted by friend of by random users of my Skyrim mod. There was a time when i was a big pirate and hated Steam with PASSION but, that was prior to early 2012. There were two main reasons which i resorted to piracy, first one physical copies of games were too expensive and second my internet speed was so slow that i couldn't even download them myself, so I had to buy pirated copies of games in the street markets for about 5 bucks per disk, sometimes games came on several discs but it was still cheaper than buying the Legit Physical copy. I had a steam account since 2008, but never really used it until 2012 when i released my Skyrim mod on nexus and it quickly become popular.

One user of my mod user loved it so much, that he asked me to friend him on steam. But i refused because i didn't even used Steam at all. He asked then how was i playing the game and i told him i was pirating the game complete with modding tools. So he decided to gift me the game on Steam + all DLC's and i think a few weeks later there was a sale and gifted me like 3-4 more games that were on my wishlist. So yeah i started using Steam and fell in love with it. The games are so cheap and i got some very generous friends. Some of them gift between 100-200 USD a year, usually in the sales.

Games on Steam are so insanely cheap, sometimes between 2-7 USD that it even made piracy just irrelevant. All the people i know that also used to be pirates that are now legit owners of games on Steam. Heck i even got like 200 titles of 80s-90s retro games on GOG and around 40 on Origin too, since you could transfer your EA games on Steam into Origin by using the Steam Key and even contacting Support and showing them the Email for the EA Game bought on Steam, and they would activate it if it had no key on steam. So i got no love for EGS or UPlay, they haven't done anything anywhere near of what Steam have done for me. All these launchers are starting to annoy me. Steam is just better in every aspect, they might not be as generous as other stores giving out free games, but what they do they do it pretty damn well. You can leave reviews for games, Recommend, comment on each specific game, MASSIVE community with support for every single game out there, cards that you can unlock and then sell to buy more games, nice wrappers that make games playable on systems like Mac and Linux, Native Controller support for every damn console out there and the list just goes on and on.

What does epic got? basically just a store that sometimes gives out somewhat good games. They don't even have a community to look for support on their own platform... i seen threads on Steam of games only available on Epic... yeah. What a wonderful store that is. I haven't checked in months, but I'm not sure they even got a Cart to buy several games at once or even a damn wishlist. Their store is just barebones. I wouldn't mind their store if the games were available in all stores, but sometimes they pay for exclusivity that last YEARS. If it were like a 3-6months it wouldn't be a problem for me, I can wait a few months.

I honestly don't care much for EGS. They can grow or just disappear. Steam and GOG are my main places for games, the rest are just useless bloatware launchers cluttering my Desktop.

I remember when Epic, EA and others hated PC and were openly against it. Praising and simping for Consoles. Steam brought PC back from the grave, and once it turned out to be very profitable all then they want a piece of the pie. Though luck, even after several years of EGS, Steam still owns 90% of the market. Their fault for not supporting what has been my preferred platform since the 90s when i got my first Pentium1 at 133mhz. Now they all get to eat crumbs and dirt.

I suggest everyone to grab as many free games from then as you can lol. I grabbed GTA5, Jurassic World Evolution and Ghostbusters Remaster from them, since i also own those on Steam. But to be honest i don't even launch the damn thing.

 

[AsRock]

Even with the amounts of good karma EGS gained giving dozens (hundreds?) of games for free, and actively funding indie studio game development projects, somehow many people still view it as evil incarnate. Astounding how this stupid double standard with Valve's steam keeps existing.

Which will mean nothing if they go under, well too us. How ever if some one buys them it will mean your data will be shared with unknown at this time.

 

[rtwjunkie]

I don’t need or want 10 different platforms all running on my pc together

I see this argument all the time. Why on Earth would anyone be running all their gamestore launchers at the same time? It’s ridiculous.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Which will mean nothing if they go under, well too us. How ever if some one buys them it will mean your data will be shared with unknown at this time.

You know someone group will crack the launcher and/or game so they can still be played if Epic shudders.

I see this argument all the time. Why on Earth would anyone be running all their gamestore launchers at the same time? It’s ridiculous.

Let's be fair, everyone's launchers try to run at Windows startup. There good number of people who either don't know they disable them or don't think they should.

 

[Valantar]

That's the theory of course, which is all fair enough but the problem is, once you're past the few mainstream apps there really isn't any way around Google. Trust me, I've tried it before (admittedly awhile ago), there were plenty of apps that I could find nowhere in any of the alternative app stores, or if I could, they were more often than not of such an age that they were no longer useful.

See the above, but: While Android isn't a hard monopoly like iOS it is still a soft de facto one given the fact that a sizeable portion of apps cannot be sourced from anywhere besides Google. (Things might've changed in the meanwhile tho, I haven't really touched a phone for a few years now, and I'm kinda trying to keep it like that. Correct me if I'm mistaken here.)

That's true. And it's obviously a shame that there are few legitimate ways of app store-less app distribution/installation on smartphones. But the truth of the matter is that volume matters the most, and the vast majority of users want easy access and auto-updates far more than they want absolute freedom of choice, and the number of users thinking otherwise is far too small to reach any type of user base sufficient to maintain self-hosted installers for most applications. That's just reality. A good open-source, account-less app store would be a great compromise, but that would come with all sorts of security and financing issues, etc.

But the de facto monopoly situation doesn't make smartphones any less general computation devices than Steam makes PCs into games consoles.

Agree to disagree then. I cannot consider them general-purpose computers given the current state of the phone ecosystem.
Partially. (I would, of course 100% agree to that statement in itself. Whether that will come to pass however, harder to tell. My gut says [x] no, but again I digress) Ultimatively, my point is that you shouldn't need a fucking app store at all. I certainly don't need one on my PC.

I sincerely hope the Epic v. Apple judge will see reason and deny Apple the right to enact wholesale monopolist control over the devices they make - but I agree that this is far from a done deal, and there's sufficient leeway in the law (not that odd given how decades of unchecked corporate lobbying has undermined most ideas of "fairness" in the law) for it to go either way. But even in a predatory capitalist system it's difficult to accept someone's right to be a monopoly, and especially their right for that monopoly to cascade outwards from an initial controlled venue (the app store out to in-app purchases). Which is why I'm somewhat hopeful.

Which will mean nothing if they go under, well too us. How ever if some one buys them it will mean your data will be shared with unknown at this time.

As if they have any data on you that Google, Facebook, or any other major tech company doesn't already have? Besides, early on in the "EGS is tracking you" panic, I asked for a summary of data they have gathered on me, as they are required to provide under EU law. The result? Nothing of value. Profile info + purchase history, and that was that. There's likely more now that I've used EGS for longer, but ... what would it be? Which games I've played and for how long? They're not monitoring your internet connection or other apps, so that's about it for what they could get.

Let's be fair, everyone's launchers try to run at Windows startup. There good number of people who either don't know they disable them or don't think they should.

I let them run, mainly because needing to log into them when they haven't run for a while is rather annoying. Currently I have EGS, Steam, Origin, GOG and the Xbox app in the system tray. Then again, I have 32GB of RAM, so it hardly matters.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Let's be fair, everyone's launchers try to run at Windows startup. There good number of people who either don't know they disable them or don't think they should.

Ok, I’ll take your word for it. But stopping autostart programs is so early in most people’s computer fluency timeline that it makes me realize we have a whole lot people not ready for our increasingly tech-reliant world.

 

[64K]

I see this argument all the time. Why on Earth would anyone be running all their gamestore launchers at the same time? It’s ridiculous.

Steam is the only launcher that I have set to run on startup. All of the others I just sign in when I want to play a game from them. That's why I like it that I don't have to sign in to Epic to launch a game.

 

[mechtech]

I see this argument all the time. Why on Earth would anyone be running all their gamestore launchers at the same time? It’s ridiculous.

True. But even not running. Just
More crap and bloat filling up my ssd.

another thing about epic is the large updates.

 

[blackegg]

good, good

 

[Octopuss]

Epic has absolutely horrendously shitty, useless user-unfriendly and feature-lacking launcher that I hate so much I only bought one game there and only because of the exclusivity. No more.

I do like the existance of Steam competition though.

 

[Diverge]

What's really apparent is the people who have issues with why other people make their choices - pretty much if you don't think like them then you must be inferior. Just look through the thread...

Ironically I hated Steam when it first came out because I wanted to retain control over my games, but now I just want them all in one easy to manage library. If Epic wanted to compete with Steam they should come out with a better product instead of paying for exclusives and giving away games... that's not the way to build, all they are doing is trying to disrupt rather than innovate.

 

[AusWolf]

I'm not talking about the early years of Steam. I'm talking about how literally zero viable alternatives to Steam have arrived before GOG managed to claw a space for themselves (partially through preferential access to CDPR titles, partially through their DRM-free schtick), and then Epic actually trying to present a mainstream alternative. But there have absolutely been alternatives - they've just all failed. Every single one has either shut down or morphed into a Steam key storefront. Until GOG and EGS, that is.

Why did they fail, though? Probably the same reason why Epic is unpopular at the moment - they didn't offer anything of value over Steam. The market needs innovation, not another mainstream alternative.

As for your last sentence: are you at all considering the context of user adoption and the force of habit? If Steam has a hundred million user install base and Epic has zero, what real competition do you have if Epic just walks up and says "hey, we sell some of the same stuff you do"? That's not how the world works. Exclusivity deals are a perfectly viable and above-board method for bringing new users on board. In this case, the main "argument" against this seen from most users is an irrational and vaguely expressed hatred towards Epic of the audacity of making something not be available on Steam! How dare they? *gasp*

I'd much prefer them to offer something of value instead. Exclusive deals are a money making tool of a company that doesn't have a better idea.

Seriously, if we want to break Steam's de facto monopoly - which is still going strong, and which does absolutely nothing to benefit gamers - then we need powerful actors with fat wallets to fight them. That's the only way, unless you want the FTC to step in and split up Valve. Which would also be perfectly fine IMO, even if it would be a legal mess like no other.

It actually does benefit gamers - all your games and services integrated into one single launcher isn't a bad thing. I'm not taking sides, though, just trying to visualise the argument from both sides.

What's really apparent is the people who have issues with why other people make their choices - pretty much if you don't think like them then you must be inferior. Just look through the thread...

Ironically I hated Steam when it first came out because I wanted to retain control over my games, but now I just want them all in one easy to manage library. If Epic wanted to compete with Steam they should come out with a better product instead of paying for exclusives and giving away games... that's not the way to build, all they are doing is trying to disrupt rather than innovate.

Exactly that!

 

[medi01]

The 3 main reasons that gamers cite when they are criticizing EGS is Epic's policy about making games exclusive to EGS. Their store isn't as feature rich as Steam. Their ties to Tencent in China (they fear their personal info will be harvested by the Chinese Government). None of these really bother me.

None of those are real reasons either.

You want Steam because of their vast game selection and/or community and modding services.
You want Origin because that's where EA games are found.
You want GOG because it's DRM-free.
You want Epic because... ?

Because I find 12% of the revenue going to a software shop to be more reasonable, than 30%.

Just to realize how inadequate that 30% cut is: it's how much Cupertino Pigs, also known as Apple, take.

If Epic wanted to compete with Steam they should come out with a better product instead of paying for exclusives

Because majority of gamers give a flying carpet for software stores, so one could reasonably compete by rolling out "better software shop". Sure, John.

 

[etayorius]

medi01​

"Because I find 12% of the revenue going to a software shop to be more reasonable, than 30%.

Just to realize how inadequate that 30% cut is: it's how much Cupertino Pigs, also known as Apple, take."

And the 12% Cut benefits you as a customer because...?

That would make sense if the games were actually cheaper, but Games in EGS are still as expensive as on Steam or Origin. You might add that more of that cash will go toward developers, but we all know it's BS. Since most of that will actually go to the CEO, President or top execs.

In the 80's and 90's publishers in Music, Books or Games took anywhere from 50-75% of the sale. Steam actually lowered it to 30%, hence why everyone wanted to be on board with them. Now all of a sudden the 30% cut is EVIL. For all the stuff steam does as a platform i say it's fair.

David Brevik, the Creator of Diablo and former Blizzard exec once said in one of his Streams for his latest Indie game called "They lurk below", that he has no problem with Steam or Xbox cut of 30%. But he wished that they would do a little more exposure to smaller indie Games. So if an indie dev like him think's the 30% cut is fine, It probably is. Epic is just being greedy.

 

[Ravenas]

Funny how some people prefer Steam monopoly.

Yes, since the goal is to stop using successful software distribution platforms, maybe I should start using the Orgin store just to make a point...

Better yet, let's stop using Windows 10 and begin using Linux just to make point. Don't worry about using the operating system that supports you the most and provides the most content.

The goal is no longer to use the platform that offers the best experience, but to use the anti-platform to stick it to the big guy.

Funny how people go out of their way to find "alternatives", opting to use the platform that is basically still in beta. As far as software distribution platform rankings go, I would provide the following: Steam > Battle.net > Orgin > Epic.

Maybe by 2027 this will change.

 

[64K]

For the sake of complete accuracy Valve adopted a tiered cut due to pressure from Epic about 2 1/2 years ago. Steam takes 30% for the first $10 million in sales a game maker or publisher earns. For all sales between $10 million and $50 million, the cut goes to 25%. and for every sale after the initial $50 million Steam will take a 20% cut. Now that doesn't mean anything for small Developers. Most will still be giving 30% to Steam.

Epic is losing a lot of money with the free games and the guaranteed payout to Publishers who are willing to make their games a timed exclusive on EGS and the lower than industry standard cut. These things can't go on forever. Eventually Epic is going to need to stop losing hundreds of millions of dollars with current EGS policies and actually start making a profit.

 

[medi01]

And the 12% Cut benefits you as a customer because...?

Because it goes to those into making games.

That would make sense if the games were actually cheaper

How shortsighted.

let's stop using Windows 10 and begin using Linux just to make poin

Because in goddamn 2021 one still needs to "make points" about why competition is good, and monopoly is bad.

platform that offers the best experience

I don't know about people with HL things on avatar, I use "platforms" to buy games and launch them.
All look equally fairly annoying to me.

Bar Gog.Com.

And if anything, Epic, unlike Valve, supports Gog's launcher officially.

 

[AusWolf]

Because I find 12% of the revenue going to a software shop to be more reasonable, than 30%.

Just to realize how inadequate that 30% cut is: it's how much Cupertino Pigs, also known as Apple, take.

I don't give a hoot how much of the revenue is going to the software shop as long as I'm paying the same price for a better service.