Thermaltake Debuts TOUGHFAN 12 High Static Pressure Radiator Fan in Turquoise and Racing Green

[Chrispy_]

You literally just described the Nidec... how can you say the Noctua isn't a copy of the Nidecs rofl

They were developed simultaneously in isolation and both hit the market at about the same time.

https://noctua.at/en/nf-a12x25-interview-lars-stromback details the differences and there's no doubt to me that they are not copies of each other. The rotors, the hubs, the colours, the frame design - they are all different enough that nobody is going to confuse the Nidec GT with the NF-A12x unless they are being deliberately obtuse.

The real kicker here is use of Sterrox in the Toughfan. Sterrox is a Noctua trademark and it looks like after 4 years of Sterrox research, Thermaltake just copied the Noctua Sterrox rotor, almost exactly. Phanteks are the only other company that have used glassfibre-reinforced composite rotors and whilst they ape the performance claims of Noctua's NF-A12x in minimising the gap between the rotor tips and the frame, the Phanteks T30 looks nothing like the Noctua.

 

[dirtyferret]

There is only so far you can go with fan design, its all been done

What if, and I'm just trying to think outside the box here, we add the primary colors of light to the fans themselves in order to produce a full array of colors? We then market these lights as an "cooling improvement" and charge a premium for the fans?

 

[Chrispy_]

Remember that courts don't need "proof". They need enough evidence to decide "beyond a reasonable doubt"... it seems that some in the forum have decided it would be unreasonable to assume TT had spontaneous and original insight that just about copies the current market leader.

On top of that, this isn't an isolated incident of Thermaltake making close copies of market leaders. They do it for so many different products it's quite clearly their established modus operandi at this point.

 

[Mistral]

Well, those are almost Noctua-level colours...

 

[TechLurker]

Some informal testing done here and there by techtubers more or less put the Noctua A12x25 and the TT TF12 and the nearest GT equivalent at about the same performance, +/- a degree at similar RPMs. Everything else is personal choice, like sound perception and color options.

• GT is the old guard, reliable and relatively cheap, comes in 3-pin and 4-pin versions with different max RPMs. Colors vary between all black and black frame with gray fan.
• A12x25 is your high-end semi-luxury performance brand. Expensive, but mostly worth it. Color selection limited to Louis Vuitton Browns (for now).
• TF12 is your off-brand luxury-like for slightly less cost, but in more colors than what the luxury brand provides. If looks matter a bit more than brand loyalty or limited color selection, they got you covered.

There are also:

• The EK Vardars, which compete in similar performance with GTs (and by extension, the A12x25). More or less unmentioned nowadays. They do have ARGB options though, unlike the above fans.
• The new MSI MEG Silent Gale 12s, which look to be another variation of the large hub, performance fan segment.
• Phantek's new T30-120s, which add thickness on top of a large rotor hub to add performance.

Given Phantek's and EK's experimental forays into 26mm+ frame thickness ranges, I'm kind of wondering how long until server-grade-like fans will appear in general PC cooling, just "GAMER-fied" or ARGB-fied. I'm talking about 38mm fans (the sub-par EK Meltemi don't count) similar to the Nidec VA450s, San Ace 120s, and Deltas (with or without the counter-bladed spokes), just tuned down somewhat and given some random bling, whether it's ARGB or GAMER aesthetic.

 

[Dave65]

They making fans for Noctua now?

 

[Valantar]

Some informal testing done here and there by techtubers more or less put the Noctua A12x25 and the TT TF12 and the nearest GT equivalent at about the same performance, +/- a degree at similar RPMs. Everything else is personal choice, like sound perception and color options.

• GT is the old guard, reliable and relatively cheap, comes in 3-pin and 4-pin versions with different max RPMs. Colors vary between all black and black frame with gray fan.
• A12x25 is your high-end semi-luxury performance brand. Expensive, but mostly worth it. Color selection limited to Louis Vuitton Browns (for now).
• TF12 is your off-brand luxury-like for slightly less cost, but in more colors than what the luxury brand provides. If looks matter a bit more than brand loyalty or limited color selection, they got you covered.

There are also:

• The EK Vardars, which compete in similar performance with GTs (and by extension, the A12x25). More or less unmentioned nowadays. They do have ARGB options though, unlike the above fans.
• The new MSI MEG Silent Gale 12s, which look to be another variation of the large hub, performance fan segment.
• Phantek's new T30-120s, which add thickness on top of a large rotor hub to add performance.

Given Phantek's and EK's experimental forays into 26mm+ frame thickness ranges, I'm kind of wondering how long until server-grade-like fans will appear in general PC cooling, just "GAMER-fied" or ARGB-fied. I'm talking about 38mm fans (the sub-par EK Meltemi don't count) similar to the Nidec VA450s, San Ace 120s, and Deltas (with or without the counter-bladed spokes), just tuned down somewhat and given some random bling, whether it's ARGB or GAMER aesthetic.

You forgot the Arctic P12 (and P14), which very nearly match NF-A12x25 performance for 1/3rd the price. Unlike most of the above they are a very different design though, with a relatively small motor and hub and very different blade geometry. But, at least going by my P14s, they are fantastic value, and perform great. P14s are 28mm though, so they're kind of cheating a bit.

As for the MSI MEG Silent Gale 12s, I'm genuinely curious if Nidec is the OEM for those. At least the rotors look nearly identical to my old GTs (though those are in gray, not black). And the sheen in the frame material also looks very similar, even if the shape is different. Makes me wonder if they went to Nidec and said "Hey, can you make us a 2000rpm Gentle Typhoon in black with a hydro dynamic bearing?"

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

What if, and I'm just trying to think outside the box here, we add the primary colors of light to the fans themselves in order to produce a full array of colors? We then market these lights as an "cooling improvement" and charge a premium for the fans?

colors and RGB are not new and dont really count. Nice try.

 

[Valantar]

colors and RGB are not new and dont really count. Nice try.

I'm reasonably sure that was exactly the point of the post you quoted

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

I don't think there is much, true, but that still doesn't make blatantly ripping off another company's design okay. At the very least you try to make it meaningfully different. TT can't reasonably be said to have done so with these.

Thats what they seemed to be reduced to, ripping off others designs. I'd still associate it with a dice roll party about which fans to ripoff. Down the road a fan is gonna pop up and someone will say its directed ripoff of this one and than a huge discussion will ensue about who ripped off who again.

I'm reasonably sure that was exactly the point of the post you quoted

all around features, blade design, shell design, motor design, etc.

wiring design...

pin plug design...

you get the point ? (for those that dont. )

...

anti-vibration design...

 

[eidairaman1]

Well, those are almost Noctua-level colours...

Noctua uses turd colors

 

[TechLurker]

You forgot the Arctic P12 (and P14), which very nearly match NF-A12x25 performance for 1/3rd the price. Unlike most of the above they are a very different design though, with a relatively small motor and hub and very different blade geometry. But, at least going by my P14s, they are fantastic value, and perform great. P14s are 28mm though, so they're kind of cheating a bit.

As for the MSI MEG Silent Gale 12s, I'm genuinely curious if Nidec is the OEM for those. At least the rotors look nearly identical to my old GTs (though those are in gray, not black). And the sheen in the frame material also looks very similar, even if the shape is different. Makes me wonder if they went to Nidec and said "Hey, can you make us a 2000rpm Gentle Typhoon in black with a hydro dynamic bearing?"

Point on the Artic P12s (and 14s), but they're "normal hub" fans and weren't included. But on that sub-topic, the CoolerMaster MasterFan SF120M also performed pretty well in what little testing of the fan exists. And humorously, there were also the massive (~50mm thick) Triebwerk 120mm fans that were a big deal in the early water-cooling days of custom PC building, which also used a normal-sized hub and competed against the early GTs.

I agree the MSI MEG SG12s do look like a Nidec variant. However, the OEM on the rendered fan sticker in the TPU article says "Powerlogic". Not sure if that's an OEM who copied Nidec, or maybe a branch corp of Nidec.

 

[Joja]

They were developed simultaneously in isolation and both hit the market at about the same time.

https://noctua.at/en/nf-a12x25-interview-lars-stromback details the differences and there's no doubt to me that they are not copies of each other. The rotors, the hubs, the colours, the frame design - they are all different enough that nobody is going to confuse the Nidec GT with the NF-A12x unless they are being deliberately obtuse.

The real kicker here is use of Sterrox in the Toughfan. Sterrox is a Noctua trademark and it looks like after 4 years of Sterrox research, Thermaltake just copied the Noctua Sterrox rotor, almost exactly. Phanteks are the only other company that have used glassfibre-reinforced composite rotors and whilst they ape the performance claims of Noctua's NF-A12x in minimising the gap between the rotor tips and the frame, the Phanteks T30 looks nothing like the Noctua.

They were developed simultaneously in isolation and both hit the market at about the same time.

The Nidec was released ~2011.
The Noctua... 2018

The fact the Noctua guy in the interview even brought up the Nidec is acknowledgement of the similarities.
Just because they slapped Noctua brown on the fan doesn't mean it isn't a copy or at least 'highly influenced'.

 

[AsRock]

Moan moan moan, at least there is another option out there now . Like to see more\or some 25mm frame fans with a 38mm center like these.

 

[Dredi]

Just because they slapped Noctua brown on the fan doesn't mean it isn't a copy or at least 'highly influenced'.

Too bad that nidec never went to improve their design forward. A12x25 is a superior product in every way, so I wouldn’t call it a ”clone”. ”Clone” implies that it works similarly or worse, not better by a noticeable margin.

it does have the same amount of blades, everything else is pretty much different.

 

[Valantar]

The Nidec was released ~2011.
The Noctua... 2018

The fact the Noctua guy in the interview even brought up the Nidec is acknowledgement of the similarities.
Just because they slapped Noctua brown on the fan doesn't mean it isn't a copy or at least 'highly influenced'.

You're right that what @Chrispy_ said about launch dates is way off, but ... if you can't tell that there are more differences between a GT and an NF-A12x25 - even by a cursory glance - than "slapping Noctua brown on the fan", well ... get your eyes checked?

Comparing them in terms of functionality that affects airflow.
Similarities:

• Number of blades
• Blade sweep/angle of attack
• Exposed axle/bearing end
• Motor/hub size

Dissimilarities:

• Rotor material (liquid crystal polymer vs. more conventional plastic)
• Sharp vs. rounded blade tip
• Much tighter blade-frame clearance
• GT fan blades are notched along the trailing edge close to the hub; Noctua fan blades have airflow guidance channels on the blades
• GT has a simple frame with slightly rounded inlet edges; Noctua has a stepped inlet and concave outlet frame with dimples along the inner rim.
• GT has motor cooling cutouts around the hub, Noctua does not

So, the broad, overall design is similar, but the (crucially, functional) details are quite different. They also have very different bearings, of course. The Toughfan on the other hand is eerily similar to the Noctua - the blades are identical except for lacking the airflow guidance channels, with the frame being the only major difference, but that is again essentially lifted from another company's design.

 

[Chrispy_]

The Nidec was released ~2011.
The Noctua... 2018

The fact the Noctua guy in the interview even brought up the Nidec is acknowledgement of the similarities.
Just because they slapped Noctua brown on the fan doesn't mean it isn't a copy or at least 'highly influenced'.

My mistake - all of the reviews on the first page of search results for the Nidec are from late 2017/2018. That normally correlates to the launch date but clearly not in this instance.

 

[Skylinestar]

Isn't it time to make high static 14cm fan? I'm waiting for Noctua A15 successor.

 

[lluvia]

Aside from the color, they're good fans... while they work.
I had two malfunction on me. Bought in December last year so tells you about their QC. (Two out of eight fans.)
Both times the fan decided it wasn't going to be straight anymore. One malfunctioned with very annoying bearing noises, the other one the fan blades suddenly hitting my case.
I wish I went with UNI FAN SL120 or Chromax instead, though they were out of stock or marked up too much.

 

[Valantar]

Isn't it time to make high static 14cm fan? I'm waiting for Noctua A15 successor.

Noctua have a "new generation 140mm fan" (expected to be a similar to the A12x25) on their roadmap, but along with everything on that roadmap it keeps being pushed back. Still a ways out last time I saw an update from them.

Might be that they combine the R&D for this with a new A15 as well, given the similar overall dimensions and characteristics.

It's worth pointing out that achieving high static pressure becomes increasingly difficult as you increase fan size, especially if you want to keep noise down. And rotor and blade weight can become issues as well, especially at higher speeds. So it's understandable that this isn't a simple "scale up the NF-A12x25 CAD file" job.