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Intel CEO Asks US Government for More Backing, Calls Taiwan Not Stable

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America & its allies in the Pacific region, meaning Japan & Australia as well. You'll probably get the Philippines joining as well & then there is Indonesia... where do I stop?

This is true, a US withdrawal or defeat in the Pacific would mean a bleak future for any other country in the region. even and perhaps especially countries like Japan Australia Indonesia Malaysia Philippines and perhaps even India.

But I go back to the blockade. What exactly would the western powers do if China blockaded Taiwan? Who would fire the first shot? Don't say China, that wouldn't be part of the plan. This would be just like the US blockade of Cuba in the 60s, and the USSR backed down at that time.
 
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America & its allies in the Pacific region, meaning Japan & Australia as well. You'll probably get the Philippines joining as well & then there is Indonesia... where do I stop?
Because the Philippines and Indonesia have such a strong and modern navy and air force .. right? If you want the Aussies and Kiwis involved just tell them the Chinese have invaded Taiwan and they are allowing the Taiwanese to go around maskless and unvaccinated.
 
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Because the Philippines and Indonesia have such a strong and modern navy and air force .. right? If you want the Aussies and Kiwis involved just tell them the Chinese have invaded Taiwan and they are allowing the Taiwanese to go around maskless and unvaccinated.
It's a numbers game. More the merrier.

This is true, a US withdrawal or defeat in the Pacific would mean a bleak future for any other country in the region. even and perhaps especially countries like Japan Australia Indonesia Malaysia Philippines and perhaps even India.

But I go back to the blockade. What exactly would the western powers do if China blockaded Taiwan? Who would fire the first shot? Don't say China, that wouldn't be part of the plan. This would be just like the US blockade of Cuba in the 60s, and the USSR backed down at that time.
This news topic can't but help get political, I get that however the friction will or already is taking place in other spheres like cyber & space. Ruin a nations infrastructure with hacking before outright military intervention is the game these days.
 
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You ever been to Taiwan?
Did you even look at what is going on in terms of the ADIZ?

It's funny how everyone here, who's most likely never set foot in Taiwan, knows so much about what's going on.
Kind of regret I even wrote this news post, since clearly I have no understanding about what's going on....
I have realized writing anything with Taiwan or China in it these days is equivalent to asking for a shit sandwich
 

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I have realized writing anything with Taiwan or China in it these days is equivalent to asking for a shit sandwich
Apparently so.
It just gets too political, but the matter of fact is that life hasn't changed in Taiwan, despite all the threats from the PRC.
As such, I'm just curious what the motivation behind some of the posts here are, since what's the benefit of trashing Taiwan here? They're not the oppressors here and it's a nation that is trying it best to become a democracy, even though at times it feels like a banana republic, especially on the days when the political parties are throwing pig intestines at each other in parliament...
 
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Apparently so.
It just gets too political, but the matter of fact is that life hasn't changed in Taiwan, despite all the threats from the PRC.
As such, I'm just curious what the motivation behind some of the posts here are, since what's the benefit of trashing Taiwan here? They're not the oppressors here and it's a nation that is trying it best to become a democracy, even though at times it feels like a banana republic, especially on the days when the political parties are throwing pig intestines at each other in parliament...
isn't it mostly bashing Taiwan as a secure place for critical products?
also what shady shit Norway does (you mentioned earlier)?
 

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Apparently so.
It just gets too political, but the matter of fact is that life hasn't changed in Taiwan, despite all the threats from the PRC.
As such, I'm just curious what the motivation behind some of the posts here are, since what's the benefit of trashing Taiwan here? They're not the oppressors here and it's a nation that is trying it best to become a democracy, even though at times it feels like a banana republic, especially on the days when the political parties are throwing pig intestines at each other in parliament...
I don't think anyone is thrashing Taiwan. However, recent history has shown us that whenever China or Russia crosses a red line, the West is left "vigorously protesting".
 

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isn't it mostly bashing Taiwan as a secure place for critical products?
also what shady shit Norway does (you mentioned earlier)?
How is Taiwan less secure than say Israel, where Intel has invested heavily in both buying up third party companies, but also in some highly specialised fabs?

Are there potential issues? Sure, but I would be more concerned with issues such as water and power shortages than the PRC invading tomorrow. Those are real issues that Taiwan has, especially as there are plans to convert the largest coal power plant here to natural gas, which is going to cause some big power supply issues.
The drought that happened last year and this year is something that is expected to happen again in the future and that is a huge concern for all of the manufacturing industry here as well.
Some work has been done to try and reduce the impact, but it's not going to be enough if there's a similar even in the future, especially if it lasts longer.

I'm not lying awake at night wonder if tomorrow will be the day the PRC invades, although I did freak out a few weeks ago when the Taiwan air force was practising for the national day celebrations and flew our over place at unusually low altitude...
As I mentioned in a different post here, most people aren't even concerned about it in Taiwan.

This is the reply from TSMC.

I don't think anyone is thrashing Taiwan. However, recent history has shown us that whenever China or Russia crosses a red line, the West is left "vigorously protesting".
Well, that's true, but based on the world's reliance on Taiwan, it's likely to be different if the PRC decided to do something really foolish. It's possible that the US and the West might decide not to get involved, but Japan is highly likely to get involved, as they know that they're next, if the PRC invades Taiwan. It's also likely that Vietnam would get involved, as despite having a somewhat similar system of government to the PRC, they're non to happy with what's going on. Someone mentioned the Philippines here, but they have an outdated and poorly equipped navy that wouldn't stand a chance. They've already had some skirmishes with the people's liberation army navy (yes, that's what it's called) and it hasn't gone too well for them.

However, a lot of people are missing the fact that the dear leader is having massive issues back home to deal with, although a war could turn focus away from those issues in the short term. That said, when you can't even feed your own people, a war might not be a great idea unless you're planning on starving your nation. If you combine the african swine flu outbreak, the past couple of years of poor harvests due to various weather related issues and little things like the fact that the dear leader has gone out in the news and told people to stop wasting food, the ban on all you can eat restaurants and a few other similar things, the situation there isn't quite what it's made out to be. Add the current power shortage issues and things are starting to line up for a perfect storm at home for Xi.
 
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even though at times it feels like a banana republic
Well, the island does look like a banana. It was also once the largest source of bananas of the Japanese Empire.
 

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Well, the island does look like a banana. It was also once the largest source of bananas of the Japanese Empire.

Plenty different verities to choose from in the supermarket...

P_20211112_181043.jpg
 

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How is Taiwan less secure than say Israel, where Intel has invested heavily in both buying up third party companies, but also in some highly specialised fabs?
That's an easy one: Israel has been attacked before, beaten the invaders and has kept the army up to date. Taiwan hasn't proven themselves like that. Not to mention China is a more difficult foe than all of Israel's neighbors combined.
 

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That's an easy one: Israel has been attacked before, beaten the invaders and has kept the army up to date. Taiwan hasn't proven themselves like that. Not to mention China is a more difficult foe than all of Israel's neighbors combined.
Sure, but it doesn't make Taiwan less secure, as there's almost zero chance of being shot or blown up in Taiwan. I mean, gun smuggling = death penalty in Taiwan.
 

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Sure, but it doesn't make Taiwan less secure, as there's almost zero chance of being shot or blown up in Taiwan. I mean, gun smuggling = death penalty in Taiwan.
"Secure" for a prime chip supplier means something else though ;)

I wish and hope the people manage to keep their independence, but for the time being, there are question marks. Not many and too worrisome, as you have noted. But at the same time, nobody was able to push China back one inch since they started flexing their muscle.
 
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How is Taiwan less secure than say Israel
Israel seems to be capable and willing to wage war and both from historical and current standings seems to be able to beat some of the more probable adversaries.
Taiwan vs PRC is a bit different.
 

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"Secure" for a prime chip supplier means something else though ;)

I wish and hope the people manage to keep their independence, but for the time being, there are question marks. Not many and too worrisome, as you have noted. But at the same time, nobody was able to push China back one inch since they started flexing their muscle.
Yet Intel is coming over here to negotiate with TSMC...

Well, no-one really knows what's going on in the head of emperor Xi, so we're just going to have to wait and see.
All I can say is that so far, Taiwan isn't panicking about it.

Israel seems to be capable and willing to wage war and both from historical and current standings seems to be able to beat some of the more probable adversaries.
Taiwan vs PRC is a bit different.
The current situation is also a lot different.
But if Intel is so concerned about stability, then investing heavily in Israel seems a bit strange.
 
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The current situation is also a lot different.
But if Intel is so concerned about stability, then investing heavily in Israel seems a bit strange.
Intel has had strong presence and a huge amount of investment in Isreal since... 1970s? They are expanding or upgrading the existing factories there.

The Taiwan investment question is a lot more nuanced. It was directed at US government which is putting out over $50B for semiconductor manufacturing investments inside US. The point was about whether - or what share of - the money from government to manufacturers should go to domestic or foreign companies.
 

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Yet Intel is coming over here to negotiate with TSMC...

Well, no-one really knows what's going on in the head of emperor Xi, so we're just going to have to wait and see.
Tibet, South China Sea, Hong Kong... I think we have an idea. Hell, the whole country is built on slaughtering the vanquished, but let's pretend things have changed in the past 4,000 years.
All I can say is that so far, Taiwan isn't panicking about it.
There's currently no reason to panic. But there is reason for concern. I understand people over there have learned to live with concern for 70 years now, but that doesn't mean it's a normal situation overall.
 
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Sure, but it doesn't make Taiwan less secure, as there's almost zero chance of being shot or blown up in Taiwan. I mean, gun smuggling = death penalty in Taiwan.

False equivalency. I'm not aware of anything that Israel makes that would cause mass industrial production outages across the globe.

But more importantly, the concern Gelsinger is highlighting is not directly about keeping Taiwan's people safe, which you seem to be redirecting it towards. It is about keeping western countries safe.

If all Taiwan made were Bananas, It wouldn't be a concern.
 

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Tibet, South China Sea, Hong Kong... I think we have an idea. Hell, the whole country is built on slaughtering the vanquished, but let's pretend things have changed in the past 4,000 years.

There's currently no reason to panic. But there is reason for concern. I understand people over there have learned to live with concern for 70 years now, but that doesn't mean it's a normal situation overall.
It was all fine until the DPP won the election, all of a sudden, the PRC government started with all sorts of threats, after years of trying to win over the KMT to the idea of one country, two systems...
All of a sudden, Taiwan is a separatist province that is being accused of all sorts of things. Yet nothing has really changed, except for the PRC government's opinion.
Yes, there are people in Taiwan that wants Taiwan to be recognised as a real country, instead of whatever it is now. However, Taiwan is obviously already independent, as otherwise it would be relying on the PRC for for a lot of things, so I don't really understand the logic in terms of the terminology used.

Regardless, Pat clearly had some kind of an agenda with his comment, considering he's sending people over to have a negotiation with TSMC in the near future.

Intel has had strong presence and a huge amount of investment in Isreal since... 1970s? They are expanding or upgrading the existing factories there.

The Taiwan investment question is a lot more nuanced. It was directed at US government which is putting out over $50B for semiconductor manufacturing investments inside US. The point was about whether - or what share of - the money from government to manufacturers should go to domestic or foreign companies.
And now Intel needs TSMC, yet they trash talk Taiwan...
Doesn't seem like a very smart strategy to me.
I can obviously understand that he feels US foundries should get more money than TSMC and Samsung, although oddly enough he didn't mention GlobalFoundries...
 
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Sure, but it doesn't make Taiwan less secure, as there's almost zero chance of being shot or blown up in Taiwan. I mean, gun smuggling = death penalty in Taiwan.

The worry for Taiwan, is that if the USA vs China war ever gets started, Taiwan will be a very difficult spot to defend. And China can easily hamper the USA by simply blockading Taiwanese chips. As such, we probably shouldn't have any of our critical military equipment rely upon Taiwanese chips.

Nothing against Taiwan as a country. They're trustworthy fellas. But its 100% about their security situation.

--------

Consider this: Israel's Iron Dome has protected its cities from Hamas rockets, and we have full expectation that this will continue into the future. Sure, the Iron Dome has its weak points, but it clearly works.

Even if Taiwan gets an "Iron Dome-like" shield, China has 3000mph hypersonic missiles that almost certainly will destroy every single CRAM we place inside of Taiwan. There's a big difference from dumb-rockets lobbed at 500mph (Hamas-level technology) and Chinese BeiDou smart-rockets at 3000mph. (BeiDou is the Chinese-version of GPS).

We pretty much know how the fight will go, even if Taiwan builds a replica of the Iron Dome. I'd give it... maybe 3 days before China wipes out every single CRAM in Taiwan with a smart missile bombardment, followed up of course with Chinese Air Force and Chinese landings. China has a space-agency. They can afford (and probably have) developed space-level guidance systems for their rockets, and have simultaneously demonstrated to the world hypersonic speeds.

How do you defend a small island nation against something like that? US Navy has one advantage over Taiwan... if we blow up Chinese satellites, then China won't know where to aim the rockets (since they won't be able to see our aircraft carriers). You see, aircraft carriers are _moving_ bases, you can't just set GPS coordinates and kill an aircraft carrier, you need some kind of AI-control that can search a 300km-radius and home in on the largest "ship-signature" you can find. There's big questions if the Chinese missiles have successfully made this AI, but everyone knows that its a _possibility_ that China has developed it by now.
 
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It was all fine until the DPP won the election, all of a sudden, the PRC government started with all sorts of threats, after years of trying to win over the KMT to the idea of one country, two systems...
All of a sudden, Taiwan is a separatist province that is being accused of all sorts of things. Yet nothing has really changed, except for the PRC government's opinion.
Yes, there are people in Taiwan that wants Taiwan to be recognised as a real country, instead of whatever it is now. However, Taiwan is obviously already independent, as otherwise it would be relying on the PRC for for a lot of things, so I don't really understand the logic in terms of the terminology used.

Regardless, Pat clearly had some kind of an agenda with his comment, considering he's sending people over to have a negotiation with TSMC in the near future.
Well, scaremongering is a cheap shot, as always. But I don't see a contradiction between keeping a foot in Taiwan (even if perceived as potentially worrisome) and, at the same time, trying to strengthen your position at home. It's his job to get the money from wherever he can (including the government), but that doesn't mean the government should automatically oblige. The govt can still decide to invest if they deem Intel strategic enough. But that's not my decision to make.
 

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The worry for Taiwan, is that if the USA vs China war ever gets started, Taiwan will be a very difficult spot to defend. And China can easily hamper the USA by simply blockading Taiwanese chips. As such, we probably shouldn't have any of our critical military equipment rely upon Taiwanese chips.

Nothing against Taiwan as a country. They're trustworthy fellas. But its 100% about their security situation.

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Consider this: Israel's Iron Dome has protected its cities from Hamas rockets, and we have full expectation that this will continue into the future. Sure, the Iron Dome has its weak points, but it clearly works.

Even if Taiwan gets an "Iron Dome-like" shield, China has 3000mph hypersonic missiles that almost certainly will destroy every single CRAM we place inside of Taiwan. There's a big difference from dumb-rockets lobbed at 500mph (Hamas-level technology) and Chinese BeiDou smart-rockets at 3000mph. (BeiDou is the Chinese-version of GPS).

We pretty much know how the fight will go, even if Taiwan builds a replica of the Iron Dome. I'd give it... maybe 3 days before China wipes out every single CRAM in Taiwan with a smart missile bombardment, followed up of course with Chinese Air Force and Chinese landings. China has a space-agency. They can afford (and probably have) developed space-level guidance systems for their rockets, and have simultaneously demonstrated to the world hypersonic speeds.

How do you defend a small island nation against something like that? US Navy has one advantage over Taiwan... if we blow up Chinese satellites, then China won't know where to aim the rockets (since they won't be able to see our aircraft carriers). You see, aircraft carriers are _moving_ bases, you can't just set GPS coordinates and kill an aircraft carrier, you need some kind of AI-control that can search a 300km-radius and home in on the largest "ship-signature" you can find. There's big questions if the Chinese missiles have successfully made this AI, but everyone knows that its a _possibility_ that China has developed it by now.
I don't think I ever advocated for or against where the US should make its military chips.

Does the PRC really have those hypersonic missiles? I mean, it was one claimed test that there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about. They might have them in a few years, but considering how great a lot of their technology works...
They built some kind of amphibious tank which sinks...

Have you been to Taiwan? It's not a tropical island with sandy beaches, so in as much as the PRC might be able to take out some strategic targets, it's not an island where it's easy to land.
Once again, I see a lot of opinions in favour of the PRC from people that have never visited Taiwan and it's making me a bit fed up. Believe whatever you want, but it's not going to be a walk in the park to invade Taiwan if that's what Xi decides he wants to do.

Well, scaremongering is a cheap shot, as always. But I don't see a contradiction between keeping a foot in Taiwan (even if perceived as potentially worrisome) and, at the same time, trying to strengthen your position at home. It's his job to get the money from wherever he can (including the government), but that doesn't mean the government should automatically oblige. The govt can still decide to invest if they deem Intel strategic enough. But that's not my decision to make.
Oh, I never said that, he obviously want to make Intel look like they need as much help as possible from the US government when he speaks to a local audience.
I just think there might've been a better way to do so than trash a whole nation alongside with the competition. Especially when Intel later on has to try to negotiate with a competitor in that country that he just trashed. Oh well, his problem...
 
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Does the PRC really have those hypersonic missiles? I mean, it was one claimed test that there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about. They might have them in a few years, but considering how great a lot of their technology works...
They built some kind of amphibious tank which sinks...

Have you been to Taiwan? It's not a tropical island with sandy beaches, so in as much as the PRC might be able to take out some strategic targets, it's not an island where it's easy to land.
Once again, I see a lot of opinions in favour of the PRC from people that have never visited Taiwan and it's making me a bit fed up. Believe whatever you want, but it's not going to be a walk in the park to invade Taiwan if that's what Xi decides he wants to do.

It all comes down to hypersonic missiles. Without them, China cannot land in Taiwan. With them, China will make the landing easy.

There's no doubt that China has hypersonic missiles. The question is if China has homing hypersonic missiles (ie: can kill a Carrier moving at 35mph). Its one thing to use GPS / BeiDou to destroy all of Taiwan's military airports and stationary defenses... those move at 0mph. Its totally a different thing to hit a moving aircraft carrier that can turn on a dime (
).

There's almost no doubt that Chinese subsonic cruise missiles, supersonic missiles, and hypersonic missiles will work as a team and systematically destroy Taiwan's air-force and defenses. Once those are down, Chinese Air Force will simply bombard the landing sites with smart bombs (and much, much cheaper cruise-missiles), making any landing a piece of cake. You can't expect the Taiwanese Army to stay on the beaches if cruise missiles + Chinese air force are killing them all.

Opposed landings are hard. Taiwan's military is pretty decent. They've got an air force, small navy, and a decent army actually. But with CRAM's destroyed and the entirety of the Taiwan air force grounded (aka: Hypersonic missiles to destroy all the runways), there's really nothing Taiwan would be able to do against a combined Chinese Missile-force + Air Force supporting a mass landing.

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How does US Military change this? Well, first off, we have the option to destroy all of China's satellites, which means the hypersonic missiles won't be able to accurately hit their targets. That's probably a step too much towards total war though (China would retaliate by destroying the GPS system), so there's a chance we won't do that.

Assuming we aren't authorized to start a space war... we rely upon the fact that US Ships are moving targets, and therefore much harder to hit. US Aircraft Carriers serve as the air-support (replacing the Taiwanese Military Airports destroyed by Hypersonic missiles)... and US AEGIS Cruisers to shoot down the cheaper subsonic missiles as they approach Taiwan. (Each AEGIS Cruiser has the same technology used in Israel's Iron Dome, albeit small enough to fit on one ship and less capable than Israel's Iron Dome... but you get the general gist of what those ships can do). Of course, this assumes that the Chinese Hypersonic missiles can't hit our ships (moving targets are much harder, even if its just moving at 35mph... that's a lot faster than 0mph runways in Taiwan). So I'm still being quite optimistic about this kind of setup...

Chinese hypersonic missiles are probably too expensive to use against Taiwanese artillery positions (an M777 is like $700,000. The Hypersonic missiles are probably tens-of-millions of bucks). So if we can just "keep Taiwan's military in the game", they'll defend the island perfectly. Cruise missiles are on the order of ~1-million bucks, and probably cost-effective to use against M777 positions.

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Taiwan has very nice weapons. M777 + GPS Excalibur rounds can hit a car at 70km out. It will be difficult for China to make opposed landings with that kind of lethality and accuracy.

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Oh right, and for the range of China's hypersonic missiles:

1638550225551.png


Taiwan comfortably sits inside of China's DF-21 missile range, let alone their ICBMs. With a map like this, there's no doubt in my mind that all of Taiwan's airports and stationary defenses will be destroyed in a matter of days if war begins. The only reason why US Carriers have hope is because carriers move, and are therefore harder to hit and target.

But you can see that China can easily destroy airports in the Philippines, Japan, and South Korea, let alone Taiwan's military airports. I don't really see how the US Air Force can help out in this fight, the US Navy + US Marines will be on their own.

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Remember that "moving target" thing? Well... here's what a DF-21 looks like.

1638550502841.png


Yeah, that DF-21 hypersonic missile is launched from a truck. China can place those babies anywhere in their country without the need of a base. Any road in all of China serves as a potential launch point for the DF-21.

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In any case, that's what China is openly, and publicly, parading around. They want the world to know that they have these capabilities. Its part of their 'Wolf Warrior" diplomacy. I mean, maybe China is bluffing, maybe this stuff doesn't work very well. But... they're not exactly being secretive about this: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...df-26-anti-ship-missiles-destabilizing-167901
 
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I think you are overrating China's <current> capabilities.


Note: The recent failed US hypersonic test was a Mach 20 version...

China's stealth tech is mostly hype :


And I'm pretty sure that Japan's sub fleet could single handedly dismantle China's current navy given enough time :

 
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Do you realize what you write? I'm glad the world is in the hands of Biden, Xi and Putin, rather than yours. If it were up to you, humanity would have ceased to exist in the 60s
 
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