Intel Prepares Raptor Lake Designs With 24 Cores and 32 Threads, More E-Cores This Time

[docnorth]

I think that enthusiast are just generally pissed at the idea that they could have more P-core, especially when AMD is around. It doesn't matter If the 12900k can currently fight with the 5950x, they can't get out their head the idea that "it could have been so much faster with 16 P cores" even if the power consumption would have gone up like crazy.

Agreed, except maybe for the 12 P-core limit that @Crackong mentioned, but unfortunately the enthusiast DIY segment is too small to be a decisive factor. Besides the performance is here e.g. 1)for MT CPU applications and 2)for gaming + streaming Alder Lake has a huge architectural advantage (I guess AMD will fix this, but probably on the new architecture). For more than 8 cores (IF needed) I would also prefer 12 P-cores, but in reality I could only complain about MB and especially DDR5 pricing.

 

[RAINFIRE333]

That's cute says me, the 24-core @amd 2970WX/ASRock X399 Taichi user. very cute indeed.

 

[swirl09]

Ecores have a place, but not in a gaming rig IMO. Not yet anyway.

 

[ShurikN]

Ecores have a place, but not in a gaming rig IMO. Not yet anyway.

E cores have no place in any desktop whatsoever. Gaming or not.
Laptops, sure.

 

[ARF]

87% say No or DoN'T know lol

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

We dont need more e cores, 8 is plenty already. Anyone who has a well threaded application is going to want the P cores (see also sapphire ridge). In the android ARM world a single cluster of A55 cores has sufficied for half a decade for low power background tasks.

What we should see is a core with 10 P cores, a proper replacement for the 10900/10850k platform.

 

[SL2]

What we should see is a core with 10 P cores, a proper replacement for the 10900/10850k platform.

We know how hot the current one runs, and we know that the next one is made in the same process, so maybe it's the best they can do for mainstream?

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

We know how hot the current one runs, and we know that the next one is made in the same process, so maybe it's the best they can do for mainstream?

The heat is a real issue in sustained AVX workloads, but that was also true for coffee and comet lake. In my experience fixing this was easy, intel uses far too much voltage for AVX workloads. In non AVX or light AVX workloads the heat output is manageable by normal sized coolers. If intel has finally tuned their CPUs properly then there should be better ability to offer 10 P cores, which would only be in the i9 anyway, a chip bought by enthusiasts that have overbuilt cooling systems.

 

[zlobby]

Intel won't rest until they put a phone SoC in your PC, but tax it as a HEDT one...

The heat is a real issue in sustained AVX workloads, but that was also true for coffee and comet lake. In my experience fixing this was easy, intel uses far too much voltage for AVX workloads. In non AVX or light AVX workloads the heat output is manageable by normal sized coolers. If intel has finally tuned their CPUs properly then there should be better ability to offer 10 P cores, which would only be in the i9 anyway, a chip bought by enthusiasts that have overbuilt cooling systems.

Or maybe intel should't use toothpaste as TIM?

E cores have no place in any desktop whatsoever. Gaming or not.
Laptops, sure.

Preeeach!

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

'Leak' should be in the title so we can avoid the clickbait that this is.

 

[Punkenjoy]

I think there is a market for a desktop/workstation CPU with a lot of E-cores since there are tasks that can benefits a lot from it. They could cramp a lot of performance in the same surface for 3d rendering and stuff.

But i already think having more than 4 E cores is plenty for background task in gaming. they probably have 8 for balancing reason.

it do not means that they won't give more performances to theses cores but we will see.

Because when you look at Ryzen 5xxx vs ADL, it's the P-core that give AMD trouble.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

Or maybe intel should't use toothpaste as TIM?

Intel went back to the gold solder on the 9000 series k chips. It's a matter of thermal density and voltage.

My 9700k pulled 225 watts under AVX load out of the box, and 165w once undervolted. Temps went down from 100C to 77C. Intel is feeding too much voltage out of the box. 1.35 volt out of the box, 1.25v tuned.

 

[Harakhti]

This seems to be the general concensus, but: for home server builders? hell yeah, bring me all E-core clusters, don't care how slow they are (Xeon Phi style). For power users? Go full ham and make something with all P-cores just for the lulz, ridiculous cooling requirements are already a problem these days so nothing changes.
Alternatively, small E-core only (relatively performant) office systems would be welcome to help out on the efficiency side. I think that's what Zhaoxin was trying to do.

 

[iO]

They don't seem to have much choice. Adding more P cores would them require to either increase the already ridiculous power limit even further or reducing the core frequency and risk losing some benchmarks to AMD...
Adding more E cores seems like a sensible tradeoff.

 

[phanbuey]

at what voltage are you getting the 5.4 P 4.3 E?

1.32v for 5.4 CB 23 @ 225W - 95C max, 1.28 for 5.3/4.3 CB 23 @187ish W - 86C max

No difference in applications or game FPS between 5.4 Ghz vs 5.3 Ghz since I think Im starting to bottleneck at the ram / cache side, so I just run it at 5.3 24/7.

 

[londiste]

They don't seem to have much choice. Adding more P cores would them require to either increase the already ridiculous power limit even further or reducing the core frequency and risk losing some benchmarks to AMD...

Everyone somehow seems to only have glanced at the power graphs of 12900K reviews.
From couple different reviews only 8 P-cores enabled at 125W limit benches quite favorably against 5800X. Computerbase.de also benched 12900K with only 8 P-cores enabled at 88W limit to match 5800X eco mode with only a couple % behind.

Intel has a choice. Or at least it is not power that limits the choices. As pointed out above - ringbus becomes inefficient at 10-12 stops. Also P-cores take up die size - not quite at 1:4 rate against E-cores but close to that.

Other than lack of HT/SMT E-cores have roughly Skylake/Zen+ performance level. Sometimes a bit better (mostly INT), sometimes worse (mostly FP).

This seems to be the general concensus, but: for home server builders? hell yeah, bring me all E-core clusters, don't care how slow they are (Xeon Phi style).

Intel had 16-core Atoms a few gens back (Goldmont, C395x) and had or has 24-core Atoms last gen (Tremont, 5962B which looks like is only available to some cell tower specific uses).

 

[zlobby]

Intel went back to the gold solder on the 9000 series k chips. It's a matter of thermal density and voltage.

My 9700k pulled 225 watts under AVX load out of the box, and 165w once undervolted. Temps went down from 100C to 77C. Intel is feeding too much voltage out of the box. 1.35 volt out of the box, 1.25v tuned.

Hmm, didn't know about they brought back the solder.

I am also sure that intel went for better general stability instead of better temps. They also gave the means for undervolting to people who need it.

 

[mouacyk]

No! Don't encourage them.

 

[londiste]

1.32v for 5.4 CB 23 @ 225W - 95C max, 1.28 for 5.3/4.3 CB 23 @187ish W - 86C max
No difference in applications or game FPS between 5.4 Ghz vs 5.3 Ghz since I think Im starting to bottleneck at the ram / cache side, so I just run it at 5.3 24/7.

5.4 vs 5.3 is 1.9% difference. At the same time, power usage difference is 20%

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

Hmm, didn't know about they brought back the solder.

I am also sure that intel went for better general stability instead of better temps. They also gave the means for undervolting to people who need it.

Leaving that much extra voltage in a chip for a 1% increase in yeilds is just lazy.

 

[Richards]

Intel's hybrid architecture is for laptops that's the most important and volume market.. raptor lake s will be fabulous... desktop's are a small irrelevant market

RPL extends the lead and Meteor Lake finishes off red team few months later. To make matters worse AMD has to decide how to make due with Samsung now that they’re getting booted out of TSMC.

Amd are panicking they already trying to fit 16 core on Raphael h in leaks.. they know more cores wins battles lol

 

[SL2]

Amd are panicking

Thank you for the inside scoop!

 

[Tartaros]

I think that enthusiast are just generally pissed at the idea that they could have more P-core, especially when AMD is around. It doesn't matter If the 12900k can currently fight with the 5950x, they can't get out their head the idea that "it could have been so much faster with 16 P cores" even if the power consumption would have gone up like crazy.

16 flaming hot cores for a consumer platform, the balanced approach xD

I can't understand. Go Xeon or Ryzen or Threadripper if you really want that many full cores, is not like there aren't those options.

 

[zlobby]

Leaving that much extra voltage in a chip for a 1% increase in yeilds is just lazy.

I believe it's called tolerance margin. No 2 chips are the same. One may need more juice than another. No way intel (or any company for that matter) will tweak each chip individually.
Yeah, and this comes from a guy who hates intel, but I can't deny simple business logic.

 

[phanbuey]

5.4 vs 5.3 is 1.9% difference. At the same time, power usage difference is 20%

True 1.9% is easily within variation -- in my testing - SOTR Low @ 1080P - 5.3 Ghz 291 FPS avg... @ 5.4 Ghz 291 FPS avg. Same story with HZD bench.

Not worth the extra heat in any scenario.