NVIDIA Arm Deal Said to be Over According to Bloomberg

[TheLostSwede]

It appears that NVIDIA is getting ready to give up on its acquisition attempt of Arm, at least if news coming via Bloomberg is correct. Due to a paywall we can't access the original story, but the reason for the possible end to the deal seems to be issues related to getting government approval. The US$40 billion deal has rubbed many of Arm's partners the wrong way as well, as they don't trust NVIDIA to continue to license future Arm based processor cores to them, had the deal gone through.

At the same time, Arm has tried to convince the UK government that it will suffer terribly if NVIDIA isn't allowed to buy them, as the company claims to have lost ground to Intel and RISC-V over the past year. What's also rather bizarre, is that Arm is claiming Qualcomm is one of its competitors, despite Qualcomm being one of its licensees. On top of that, Arm also claims that "Architectural licensees do not use Arm's CPU designs. Arm architectural licensees create their own proprietary CPU designs using their own engineering teams", as part of their reasoning as to why its customers are their competitors. We suggest reading the EE Times article linked in the sources below for more details with regards to the claims Arm has filed with the UK government. The deal with NVIDIA might not be quite over as yet, but it looks like Softbank might have to consider other alternatives for Arm, if it really falls through.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site

 

[R-T-B]

despite the fact that these companies are paying money to Arm to be allowed to use their core architecture.

They pay money for the ability to implement the ISA with a custom core design, no? Isn't there a different tier if you need to license a prepared core design?

 

[TheLostSwede]

They pay money for the ability to implement the ISA with a custom core design, no? Isn't there a different tier if you need to license a prepared core design?

Arm doesn't really disclose a lot of details of what their customers pay for, but for each new core design, these companies ought to have to pay a new license fee, since Arm licenses per core design as far as I'm aware. Also, if Arm really claims to be losing money on their licensing, maybe they should change how it works.

The ARM Diaries, Part 1: How ARM’s Business Model Works

www.anandtech.com

ARM Details Built on ARM Cortex Technology License

www.anandtech.com

 

[zlobby]

God have mercy on us...

 

[R-T-B]

Arm doesn't really disclose a lot of details of what their customers pay for, but for each new core design, these companies ought to have to pay a new license fee, since Arm licenses per core design as far as I'm aware. Also, if Arm really claims to be losing money on their licensing, maybe they should change how it works.

The ARM Diaries, Part 1: How ARM’s Business Model Works

www.anandtech.com

ARM Details Built on ARM Cortex Technology License

www.anandtech.com

Thanks for clarifying, was always a bit fuzzy on how this worked.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Thanks for clarifying, was always a bit fuzzy on how this worked.

So am I, this is the disclosed information and considering they charge architecture licensees a lot more money...
Also, I don't think Qualcomm is in that bucket any more, even though they call their CPU cores Kryo, they're doing a lot less customization than they used to in the past, as it was both expensive and time consuming. Apple seems to be one of the few who's doing extensive proprietary work these days.
It's still bizarre that Arm sees Qualcomm as one of its competitors.

 

[watzupken]

Nvidia may be a very big and rich company, but they can't keep throwing money at trying to please the regulators. I feel the strongest opposition will surely be from China. Given the size of the economy, they will not want to rub China the wrong way as well. In addition, despite all the assurance provided, I think they failed to address their competitors' concerns. Most of these are also massive companies, i.e. Qualcomm, Apple, Amazon, Google, etc. So they can throw money at the problem, but so can these companies throw their weight to counter the deal.

 

[windwhirl]

Due to a paywall we can't access the original story

Don't know why, but I had access. Bloomberg probably has a limited number of articles accessible each month for free.

Anyway, Bloomberg's article mostly goes over the regulatory hurdles the deal has faced basically everywhere and the rather fierce opposition it has amassed from nearly everyone. Mostly a rehash of how things have gone until now, just to add some context to the actual news which is Nvidia being ready to accept defeat if things keep going downhill with the regulators.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Nvidia may be a very big and rich company, but they can't keep throwing money at trying to please the regulators. I feel the strongest opposition will surely be from China. Given the size of the economy, they will not want to rub China the wrong way as well. In addition, despite all the assurance provided, I think they failed to address their competitors' concerns. Most of these are also massive companies, i.e. Qualcomm, Apple, Amazon, Google, etc. So they can throw money at the problem, but so can these companies throw their weight to counter the deal.

UK actually, as the UK government feels that Arm is a British company, despite being owned by Softbank these days.
I suggest reading the EE Times story linked.
Arm China pretty much stole Arm's intellectual property and became its own thing.

Arm China Goes Rogue, Ex-CEO Blocking the Business

Arm Ltd., owned by Softbank, has a division specially tailored for China, called Arm China. That division used to operate in Shenzen and it cooperated with Chinese customers. Today in a surprising turn of events, we have information that UK-based Arm Ltd. accuses Arm China ex-CEO of blocking its...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[catulitechup]

 

[bug]

... these companies are paying money to Arm to be allowed to use their core architecture

Architectural license only gives access to the ISA, not to any off-the-shelf implementation/design. I think something is worded poorly here.
It's all explained better here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-how-arms-business-model-works/3

 

[TheLostSwede]

Architectural license only gives access to the ISA, not to any off-the-shelf implementation/design. I think something is worded poorly here.
It's all explained better here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/7112/the-arm-diaries-part-1-how-arms-business-model-works/3

Changed my wording, but they're still paying Arm a lot of money, no? It's not like any of this is for free.
This was about Arm claiming that their customers are their competitors.

 

[bug]

Changed my wording, but they're still paying Arm a lot of money, no? It's not like any of this is for free.
This was about Arm claiming that their customers are their competitors.

It's the most expensive license, yes. But licensees are not paying for "core architecture", that's all.

It's also not hard to paint Qualcomm as a competitor for ARM. When you, as a system builder, decide to buy chips, you have a choice of ARM standard vs Snapdragon. At that level, Qualcomm is the competition. And tomorrow, who knows, Qualcomm may start selling RISC-V cores instead of (or in addition to) ARM cores. It's a stretch, I agree with you, but not that big a stretch.

 

[TheLostSwede]

It's the most expensive license, yes. But licensees are not paying for "core architecture", that's all.

It's also not hard to paint Qualcomm as a competitor for ARM. When you, as a system builder, decide to buy chips, you have a choice of ARM standard vs Snapdragon. At that level, Qualcomm is the competition. And tomorrow, who knows, Qualcomm may start selling RISC-V cores instead of (or in addition to) ARM cores. It's a stretch, I agree with you, but not that big a stretch.

It's odd that Apple isn't being pointed out in the same way as Qualcomm though, although I guess the only reason for that is that Apple doesn't sell chips to anyone else than Apple.
I think part of it also has to do with Nuvia, as Qualcomm bought them and is working on server chips based on their ISA. However, so far, exactly zero chips have been released, which makes it vapourware.

 

[bug]

It's odd that Apple isn't being pointed out in the same way as Qualcomm though, although I guess the only reason for that is that Apple doesn't sell chips to anyone else than Apple.

Yup, not a competitor since they don't sell cores to anyone.

I think part of it also has to do with Nuvia, as Qualcomm bought them and is working on server chips based on their ISA. However, so far, exactly zero chips have been released, which makes it vapourware.

Wikipedia says their first SKUs are slated for H2'22. Not vaporware at this point, but it remains to be seen if they can keep that timeline when almost nobody else can. Strangely enough, Nuvia was about server chips, but is now expected to churn out chips for laptops. It's still about perf/W, but not quite the same...

 

[TheLostSwede]

Wikipedia says their first SKUs are slated for H2'22. Not vaporware at this point, but it remains to be seen if they can keep that timeline when almost nobody else can. Strangely enough, Nuvia was about server chips, but is now expected to churn out chips for laptops. It's still about perf/W, but not quite the same...

Well, there has been a lot of unsubstantiated claims about their performance, especially in terms of energy efficiency, but no proof has been provided. A single graph has been provided, using Geekbench...
I thought the laptop thing was further into the future, since that's obviously a different design. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but beyond churning out the chips, Qualcomm is also going to have to deliver an OS that can run on these chips and utilise the to their full potential.

Qualcomm to Acquire NUVIA: A CPU Magnitude Shift

www.anandtech.com

 

[TechLurker]

I wonder who'd step up to the plate next if Nvidia does give up. Nvidia was the only one willing to deal with all the ARM internal issues that would have come with part of the agreement, including dealing with the rogue China branch.

I'd be tempted to say Elon/Tesla, if only to try and develop more ARM-based automotive solutions and profit off licensing them to other automotive companies and their partners.

On the other hand, I could see Softbank selling or sharing control with other Japanese tech firms who have more experience with managing a tech company, but they'd still have to deal with the rogue China branch.

 

[bug]

Well, there has been a lot of unsubstantiated claims about their performance, especially in terms of energy efficiency, but no proof has been provided. A single graph has been provided, using Geekbench...
I thought the laptop thing was further into the future, since that's obviously a different design. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but beyond churning out the chips, Qualcomm is also going to have to deliver an OS that can run on these chips and utilise the to their full potential.

Qualcomm to Acquire NUVIA: A CPU Magnitude Shift

www.anandtech.com

Wait and see, I guess.
Linux would be the premiere candidate for OS, but it were the case, we'd have seen some support at least proposed for upstreaming till now. Afaik, that hasn't happened. So who knows, you may be right, it may be vaporware. But I won't admit that till H2'22 has come to pass

 

[TheLostSwede]

Wait and see, I guess.
Linux would be the premiere candidate for OS, but it were the case, we'd have seen some support at least proposed for upstreaming till now. Afaik, that hasn't happened. So who knows, you may be right, it may be vaporware. But I won't admit that till H2'22 has come to pass

Lateware? I mean, Qualcomm didn't buy Nuvia if they didn't believe they had something Qualcomm could use, but it has been strangely quiet.

I wonder who'd step up to the plate next if Nvidia does give up. Nvidia was the only one willing to deal with all the ARM internal issues that would have come with part of the agreement, including dealing with the rogue China branch.

I'd be tempted to say Elon/Tesla, if only to try and develop more ARM-based automotive solutions and profit off licensing them to other automotive companies and their partners.

On the other hand, I could see Softbank selling or sharing control with other Japanese tech firms who have more experience with managing a tech company, but they'd still have to deal with the rogue China branch.

Apparently Softbank is thinking about taking Arm public again.

I think the whole china thing has been written off and largely forgotten about, as they don't have access to everything and obviously nothing new since Arm cut them off. Arm could technically sue any and all of their customers, at least if they try to sell their products outside of the PRC.

The best thing that could happen was if a consortium bought Arm, one that would focus on furthering the Arm architecture and license it to anyone interested. It's unlikely to happen though, so a public Arm might be the best of the available options right now.

 

[Chrispy_]

ARM's defense in favour of Nvidia's acquisition does sound suspiciously like some bribery took place to say certain things.

The reasons given are confusingly odd, claiming that their customers are their competitors?!

 

[windwhirl]

ARM's defense in favour of Nvidia's acquisition does sound suspiciously like some bribery took place to say certain things.

The reasons given are confusingly odd, claiming that their customers are their competitors?!

ARM is owned by Softbank, of course they're gonna be in favor of Nvidia since both Softbank and Nvidia want to close the deal.

 

[80-watt Hamster]

ARM's defense in favour of Nvidia's acquisition does sound suspiciously like some bribery took place to say certain things.

The reasons given are confusingly odd, claiming that their customers are their competitors?!

Maybe not bribery, but it's not impossible that some principals inside ARM stood to make a boatload of cash in the acquisition. "Hmm, I can't come out and say that I want this to go through because it'll trigger my golden parachute; how else to spin it?"

 

[defaultluser]

They pay money for the ability to implement the ISA with a custom core design, no? Isn't there a different tier if you need to license a prepared core design?

Nvidia does both

 

[Steevo]

Sounds like ARM just admitted they are a patent troll

 

[bug]

Sounds like ARM just admitted they are a patent troll

Sounds like someone should check again what a patent troll is.